Ousmane Dembele (LW/RW) Barcelona

[SC LFC Fan]

I thought Barca have said he is going nowhere. So why is this thread still open?

Most likely because there has been good discussion.

Also, didn't Liverpool say PC was going nowhere? What a team leadership says, and what happens don't always match. (that being said, I highly highly doubt he goes anywhere for a host of reasons, but I've enjoyed following this thread regardless. I mean, it's the silly season.)

 

[Chewbazza]

What if we choose Bailey at £70 million instead of Dembele on a two year loan, ending up with the inferior player, only for Bailey to do a Can, see out his contract and leave on a free? Would the extra £70 million spent justify 4 years of inferior player over 2 years of superior player? Hell even if they were the same quality I'd go for that loan option then. Just because it's a loan doesn't mean he'll end up going back. Just because it's a purchase doesn't mean we get something out of it long term. Summer 2014 what if instead of buying Markovic for 20 million we could of brought in a talented winger (better) on a 2 year loan?

What if. What if. What if.

You can what if till the cows come home. What if we sign Bailey and he goes on to be the best player in the world (apart from Kane obviously!)?

All we can do it make decision based on all the available evidence. Taking into account the loan fee, the probable fee if we end up buying the player, the wages, the attiude of the player, the not wanting to help out Barca etc etc. there is no scenario where getting Dembele is the best decision.

But since I don't think we actually have real interest in the player anyway, I don' t think it's worth you getting so worked up about it.

 

[Anfield rd Dreamer]

What if. What if. What if.

You can what if till the cows come home. What if we sign Bailey and he goes on to be the best player in the world (apart from Kane obviously!)?

All we can do it make decision based on all the available evidence. Taking into account the loan fee, the probable fee if we end up buying the player, the wages, the attiude of the player, the not wanting to help out Barca etc etc. there is no scenario where getting Dembele is the best decision.

But since I don't think we actually have real interest in the player anyway, I don' t think it's worth you getting so worked up about it.

I'm not worked up I just struggle to see why people have issues with it. It's the cheaper option, it gets us the best possible player on the pitch and everything else is "what if"! What if we can get him perm? What if we can't? What if we spend big on a "perm" player who doesn't stay with us long term anyway? What if we spend big on an alternative who ends up doing a Markovic or an Aquilani. If we move for him I'll be made up. Even on a loan. He's probably only behind Mbappe for me when it comes to talented young wingers we could bring in. Could being a word thats up for debate.

 

[lfc.eddie]

Barcelona rumoured (coming from Balague) is looking for a side not only plays football a bit like them, but able to give Dembele regular football as a starter. Now, which of our front 3 is he going to dethrone in order for us to be able to fill him in as a regular starter?

 

[Scott Jones]

I reckon any kind of deal for this lad depends heavily on Griezmann joining them and i read somewhere he's planning on staying at AM,the main problem is the necessity to trust the rumour vultures and the keyboard fantasists typing any type of old bollocks,it's hard to believe and trust anything these days other than the lean.

 

[Chewbazza]

I'm not worked up I just struggle to see why people have issues with it. It's the cheaper option, it gets us the best possible player on the pitch and everything else is "what if"! What if we can get him perm? What if we can't? What if we spend big on a "perm" player who doesn't stay with us long term anyway? What if we spend big on an alternative who ends up doing a Markovic or an Aquilani. If we move for him I'll be made up. Even on a loan. He's probably only behind Mbappe for me when it comes to talented young wingers we could bring in. Could being a word thats up for debate.

But you aren't interested in understanding why I have an issue with it. You think we should go for him which is fine, but your opinion seems to be hinged primarily on him being a better player than the alternatives.

Everything you're saying doesn't relate to the reasons I don't want to buy him. It's like your having an argument with somebody else because none of it is relevant to the position I am coming from.

The irrational responses I assumed were because you were getting worked up, but if you say you aren't then I don't really understand what you are trying to achieve here.

 

[Anfield rd Dreamer]

Barcelona rumoured (coming from Balague) is looking for a side not only plays football a bit like them, but able to give Dembele regular football as a starter. Now, which of our front 3 is he going to dethrone in order for us to be able to fill him in as a regular starter?

We have a starting 11 again?

But you aren't interested in understanding why I have an issue with it. You think we should go for him which is fine, but your opinion seems to be hinged primarily on him being a better player than the alternatives.

Everything you're saying doesn't relate to the reasons I don't want to buy him. It's like your having an argument with somebody else because none of it is relevant to the position I am coming from.

The irrational responses I assumed were because you were getting worked up, but if you say you aren't then I don't really understand what you are trying to achieve here.

You said you didn't like loans. You gave reasons why but I did my best to show why those reasons don't always hold up. There's many times the loan is better than purchasing. I think it actually boils down to you simply not rating the player.

 

[auzziez]

Dembele definitely has got talent in him. There is no denying about that. But raw talent so far it looks like. If he shows commitment and desire that Klopp demands, he can be the next "project" that Klopp loves to work with. A project that ends with positive results more often than not.

That said, we are not a stepping stone for upcoming talent. If we manage to negotiate a loan deal with Barca, it's got to be with options that allow us to buy him based on his performance for us. No point in getting a player who we know will leave after a season or two, irrespective of if he performs well. At the same time, we wouldn't want to buy someone who didn't do well here while at loan. So no obligation to buy him at the end of the loan.

Klopp has shown to be real good at judging young players. While Edwards has until now shown his acumen in dealing with transfers. If they come to a conclusion w.r.t Dembele, I think it will be in the best interest of the club. Both financially and from the on the pitch football perspective.

 

[geebo]

Barcelona rumoured (coming from Balague) is looking for a side not only plays football a bit like them, but able to give Dembele regular football as a starter. Now, which of our front 3 is he going to dethrone in order for us to be able to fill him in as a regular starter?

its never gonna happen here then. Cant see Klopp agreeing to that. Also because he will only be here a year as a loan...

 

[Chewbazza]

We have a starting 11 again?


You said you didn't like loans. You gave reasons why but I did my best to show why those reasons don't always hold up. There's many times the loan is better than purchasing. I think it actually boils down to you simply not rating the player.

Well your assumption is incorrect.

Just out of interest, can you name one loan deal that we have made that was a success that led to us buying the player?

 

[Klopptinho]

Well your assumption is incorrect.

Just out of interest, can you name one loan deal that we have made that was a success that led to us buying the player?

to be fair the loan system does not tend to be used by ourselves , united , spurs , chelsea , city or arsenal . In fact i can think of very few premier league clubs that have loaned a player in with the option to buy . The league tends to be the richest so buying a permanent player is often the preferred option .

 

[GaryBarlow99]

Well your assumption is incorrect.

Just out of interest, can you name one loan deal that we have made that was a success that led to us buying the player?

Don't want to jump in between your discussion but Mascherano was a loan wasn't he? It's the only one I can think of anyway.

 

[Klopptinho]

Don't want to jump in between your discussion but Mascherano was a loan wasn't he? It's the only one I can think of anyway.

good spot ! i'd forgotten that loan .

i can remember sahin , anelka? , moses , cissokho , caulker . not a very large pool of players to really say its a good or bad idea the loan to buy or the loan in general .

 

[Chewbazza]

Don't want to jump in between your discussion but Mascherano was a loan wasn't he? It's the only one I can think of anyway.

Yeah good call but I think that was a necessity over his third party ownership/having played for Corinthians and West Ham in the same year etc.

I suspect though if loaning to buy such a great idea, we'd have done it more than once in the last 20 years.

 

[Anfield rd Dreamer]

Well your assumption is incorrect.

Just out of interest, can you name one loan deal that we have made that was a success that led to us buying the player?

Up till recently we've not had too much joy with transfers full stop so not sure why the loan to buy system should be reliant on our success with it as far as judgement goes. If PSG and Bayern Munich and the likes aren't above a decent loan then I don't see why we should look down our nose at it.

 

[lfc.eddie]

We have a starting 11 again?

Mane, Firmino and Salah? You mean we don't, and Klopp taking players name out of a hat, like ruffle tickets? Come the fuck on, you know exactly what I was talking about. Is Dembele going to be used as regular as Salah, Mane or Firmino? Your fixation with one player, like last January with Lemar and now this fella is getting closer to fantasy mode.

Like @Chewbazza said, too many "what ifs", what's for sure from my point is the question I posted - will he take over from Mane, Salah or Firmino, either one of them as a regular starter?

 

[Chewbazza]

Up till recently we've not had too much joy with transfers full stop so not sure why the loan to buy system should be reliant on our success with it as far as judgement goes. If PSG and Bayern Munich and the likes aren't above a decent loan then I don't see why we should look down our nose at it.

You said 'many times the loan is better than purchasing'. That simply isn't true. Just because some clubs do it occasionally doesn't mean it's a better idea than finding an equally good option for a better price and signing them up for four or five years.

If you go back to before you overreacted to my opinion, you'll see I said that a loan was a good option if we can't afford to buy a player after doing our other business. So nobody is looking down there nose at anything.

 

[GaryBarlow99]

Anelka and Sahin should have become permanent buys imo but the rest have either been poor quality (Caulker) or have simply not worked out (Manquillo).

Good site showing all our transfers and loans over the years if anyone is interested https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/fc-liverpool/alletransfers/verein/31

 

[Chewbazza]

Mane, Firmino and Salah? You mean we don't, and Klopp taking players name out of a hat, like ruffle tickets? Come the fuck on, you know exactly what I was talking about. Is Dembele going to be used as regular as Salah, Mane or Firmino? Your fixation with one player, like last January with Lemar and now this fella is getting closer to fantasy mode.

Just like the fixation with not selling Sturridge in January because there's no way that we could cope without him, only for him to break down again as he played a game.

 

[Anfield rd Dreamer]

Ok no longer debating the points now attacking the person who doesn't agree with you and mocking them instead.

You stay classy San Diego.

 

[Chewbazza]

So, as I was saying, I think a loan for Dembele only makes sense if we can't afford a winger after doing all our other business.

If we can I'd rather just buy a Pulisic or Bailey outright than loan Dembele to rotate with Mane and Salah.

 

[SC LFC Fan]

Man, I don't know about anyone else, but I would probably be willing to do loan with an option to buy just about any player we buy. Trial period, and if it doesn't work out, they have to go back to their old club to worry about them? Sign me up.

No clue if that's realistic in this case, and I'm not really sure the reason that Barcelona would want to structure it that way as opposed to just selling him outright if they need the money, but if that is on the table, I take it all day. The only reason I could see Barcelona being willing is if in some way it helps them save face for a panic buy, to avoid it being called a "failed transfer" or something.

 

[Anfield rd Dreamer]

Man, I don't know about anyone else, but I would probably be willing to do loan with an option to buy just about any player we buy. Trial period, and if it doesn't work out, they have to go back to their old club to worry about them? Sign me up.

No clue if that's realistic in this case, and I'm not really sure the reason that Barcelona would want to structure it that way as opposed to just selling him outright if they need the money, but if that is on the table, I take it all day. The only reason I could see Barcelona being willing is if in some way it helps them save face for a panic buy, to avoid it being called a "failed transfer" or something.

The theory/story/fantasy/possibility is that Barca are maxed out on their allowed wage bill and get into trouble if it stays the same let alone increases. Barca always do a great PR job of how little money they have yet somehow always get the money from somewhere and I don't think anywhere is saying they need to sell to raise money. However they are in a pickle. At the moment they have Suarez & Messi, two of the best forwards in the world but both over 30. They ain't going anywhere for a while but they need to plan succession. They've started with Coutinho and Dembele and want to add Griezmann. Once Messi and Suarez have retired or moved on that would probably be their new attack as things stand. Whilst they are both still there it's a player or two too many for a front three in a league where you don't need to rotate much. So they are in a situation where they want Dembele in a couple of years time but have no room or wages for him in the here and now. Especially if they want to keep the fans happy and the good vibes going by bringing Antoine in. As such the perfect world for Barca is a 2 year loan to an attacking team that will play Dembele so he continues developing and pay enough to fully cover his wages. Then they can bring him back as Messi and/or Suarez leaves the side when he still has 2 years left on his deal. We haven't been directly linked other than Twitter. But after Fabinho it wouldn't surprise me if we aren't linked to players we end up bringing in.

 

[SC LFC Fan]

The theory/story/fantasy/possibility is that Barca are maxed out on their allowed wage bill and get into trouble if it stays the same let alone increases. Barca always do a great PR job of how little money they have yet somehow always get the money from somewhere and I don't think anywhere is saying they need to sell to raise money. However they are in a pickle. At the moment they have Suarez & Messi, two of the best forwards in the world but both over 30. They ain't going anywhere for a while but they need to plan succession. They've started with Coutinho and Dembele and want to add Griezmann. Once Messi and Suarez have retired or moved on that would probably be their new attack as things stand. Whilst they are both still there it's a player or two too many for a front three in a league where you don't need to rotate much. So they are in a situation where they want Dembele in a couple of years time but have no room or wages for him in the here and now. Especially if they want to keep the fans happy and the good vibes going by bringing Antoine in. As such the perfect world for Barca is a 2 year loan to an attacking team that will play Dembele so he continues developing and pay enough to fully cover his wages. Then they can bring him back as Messi and/or Suarez leaves the side when he still has 2 years left on his deal. We haven't been directly linked other than Twitter. But after Fabinho it wouldn't surprise me if we aren't linked to players we end up bringing in.

I totally get it if it's a straight 2 year loan, but not if it's a loan with option to buy (for them I mean)

 

[Chewbazza]

Man, I don't know about anyone else, but I would probably be willing to do loan with an option to buy just about any player we buy. Trial period, and if it doesn't work out, they have to go back to their old club to worry about them? Sign me up.

No clue if that's realistic in this case, and I'm not really sure the reason that Barcelona would want to structure it that way as opposed to just selling him outright if they need the money, but if that is on the table, I take it all day. The only reason I could see Barcelona being willing is if in some way it helps them save face for a panic buy, to avoid it being called a "failed transfer" or something.

The problem in this case is we sign him on loan and he is a success and Barca decide not to sell him or they set a ridiculous price which essentially wipes out the Coutinho fee or he doesn't impress on loan and we have to find somebody next year anyway by which point the market might not be so deep with alternatives as it is now.

Regardless if we do end up buying him a before or after a loan, his wages will be so high that we'll be screwed when it comes to signing other players or negotiaiting existing contracts.

Whichever way you look at it this would be bad business for us.

 

[SC LFC Fan]

The problem in this case is we sign him on loan and he is a success and Barca decide not to sell him or they set a ridiculous price which essentially wipes out the Coutinho fee or he doesn't impress on loan and we have to find somebody next year anyway by which point the market might not be so deep with alternatives as it is now.

Regardless if we do end up buying him a before or after a loan, his wages will be so high that we'll be screwed when it comes to signing other players or negotiaiting existing contracts.

Whichever way you look at it this would be bad business for us.

Your view of what loan with an option to buy is different from mine. And you may be right, but I wouldn't expect it to be loan where after the loan we get to name our price and you take it or leave it. I would think it would be agreed upon in advance or set with the market or something like that. Otherwise, what would make that any different than any other loan?

I hear your point on wages, and I don't know what his current wages are to know how valid that is or not as a concern!

 

[Anfield rd Dreamer]

I totally get it if it's a straight 2 year loan, but not if it's a loan with option to buy (for them I mean)

Well to get the right club they may have to accept the option to buy? From their point of view they'd be hoping the player rejects the perm move and goes back to them. In reality a lot can change over two years and their plans now might not be their plans then. This, if any truth to it, is a holding pattern for them. All came from Balague as an option. He is rubbish for a lot but does seem to know bit more than most about what's going on at Barca and Real but he could still be talking out of his arse. My posts on here have been me not able to understand how people see it as bad from a football or business point of view. Can maybe see it as a bit of hurt pride not owning a player who could be one of our best whilst here but Masch was once in that situation, one of our best Cms whilst still owned by West Ham. At least this is Barca and not fucking West ham.

 

[Chewbazza]

Your view of what loan with an option to buy is different from mine. And you may be right, but I wouldn't expect it to be loan where after the loan we get to name our price and you take it or leave it. I would think it would be agreed upon in advance or set with the market or something like that. Otherwise, what would make that any different than any other loan?

I hear your point on wages, and I don't know what his current wages are to know how valid that is or not as a concern!

He's on 220,000 a week, so we'd basically have to tear up our wage structure and throw it out the window.

 

[big noyd]

the matches he would play for us, on loan, would count in the table

rather have dembele for a year than three moses simons for the next decade

i don't get it

 

[Chrenyan]

rather have dembele for a year than three moses simons for the next decade

This.

Forget Malcom. Forget Bailey. Forget Zaha. Forget Moses Simon. Forget Goncalo Guedes, Thomas Lemar, Steven Bergwijn and/or Gelson Martins. No disrespect to any of them - this is a list of some of Europe's elite wingers (in some cases elite young wingers). But let's just figure out how to sign Dembele.

Imagine if Manchester City were willing to loan us Leroy Sane for two years. We wouldn't be talking about developing their player - it would be almost irrelevant. The only reason Dembele is available is coz Griezmann might move to Barca, and that will unsettle him. This kind of situation might come along once every 5 years or so (like James to Bayern).

The structure of the deal - these details can be hammered out. For example, we can pay Barcelona a loan fee that enables them to pay most of his wages, and then have him on our payroll at a wage that fits within our wage structure. If we want to make it work, there are so many ways to make it work! Let's just sign the boy, that's all.