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Phillippe Coutinho (LW/AM)

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Scott Jones

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It was a nice gesture in the pre match presser that Klopp refused to say that he told Barca to go fuck themselves when offered Phil,instead keeping it to himself and giving no answer when asked if he'd been offered Phil,what a gent.
 


Arminius

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Coutinho situation is of his own making. Far away hills turned out to be less green than he imagined. His value is only going down because it looks like his game time is going to be even more limited this season.
Let's hope the lesson is not lost on Sadbobmo.
Probably too focused on repeating as CL winners to give much thought to it.
 

Incognito

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Barca are more eager to offload him than he was to join them. What a turn of tales!

Absolutely no respect to a player, and probably deserved for the antics thrown and the transfer request just before the first game of our season. All this just for Neymar, the player that showed an equal apathy towards them.
 



lfc.eddie

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Barca are more eager to offload him than he was to join them. What a turn of tales!

Absolutely no respect to a player, and probably deserved for the antics thrown and the transfer request just before the first game of our season. All this just for Neymar, the player that showed an equal apathy towards them.
Sad thing is, not a single player would have seen this ordeal and shy away from that club. Instead of standing by their compatriot, them players would just look away and when offer comes to them from Barcelona, they'll jump on it. That's the reality of this cutthroat business.
 

Iluvatar

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£215,000 a week? Sounds about right actually - surprised he's not on more.
Sorry yes it’s about right for a starter at Barca.. It’s a lot of money for a sub / rotation player. Was more Barca want the club taking him on loan to pay it all, and I can see why we wouldn’t.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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Why would our fourth choice attacker be a sub/rotation player? I see this claim so much. We play 433 and in the midfield 3 none of Fabinho, Henderson, Keita, Wijnaldum and Ox are considered sub/rotation players. Some would argue Milner too. Yet anyone after Salah, Mane and Firmino in the attacking front 3 is a sub or rotation option? Doesn't make sense. If there is enough playing time for 5/6 "starters" in 3 midfield positions then there must be enough playing time for at least 4 attackers for 3 forward positions?
 



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Why would our fourth choice attacker be a sub/rotation player? I see this claim so much. We play 433 and in the midfield 3 none of Fabinho, Henderson, Keita, Wijnaldum and Ox are considered sub/rotation players. Some would argue Milner too. Yet anyone after Salah, Mane and Firmino in the attacking front 3 is a sub or rotation option? Doesn't make sense. If there is enough playing time for 5/6 "starters" in 3 midfield positions then there must be enough playing time for at least 4 attackers for 3 forward positions?
Wow how to twist words to get a rant in..

Are any of those players you mention on £215k a week.. Nope probably around half.

Does Coutinho get into the front 3? No so guess what that makes him btw.. Not a starter haha.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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Wow how to twist words to get a rant in..

Are any of those players you mention on £215k a week.. Nope probably around half.

Does Coutinho get into the front 3? No so guess what that makes him btw.. Not a starter haha.
If I was just responding to you I'd have quoted you. It gets said a lot by a lot of people, even during commentary on Friday and, I'm sorry, but its bullshit. Who are our 3 starters in CM? We dont have 3 starters. They all play. And they all play what would be considered the amount if football a "starter" would play. Where did I mention we should have a fourth attacker on a specific wage? Or even that it had to be Coutinho (although as it's his thread that's my fault for that confusion)? I've stated clearly in this thread that Coutinho is not the type of attacker we need to add.
 

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If Fabinho, Henderson, Wijnaldum, Milner, Keïta, Chamberlain, and Lallana were all fit at the same time and for a period of time, a definite hierarchy would emerge where some are considered the rotation options.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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If Fabinho, Henderson, Wijnaldum, Milner, Keïta, Chamberlain, and Lallana were all fit at the same time and for a period of time, a definite hierarchy would emerge where some are considered the rotation options.
But that's a massive if isn't it? Which highlights how lucky we have been, so far, that Mane, Salah and Firmino have been available for 90% of our playing time for 2 (Salah) or more seasons on the bounce despite playing a lot nearly every summer. How long can that realistically last for? Especially when they are needing to consistently start ariund 50 games a season (which is on the high side anywhere in Europe even less physically demanding leagues). But even starting that amount each year then there is still enough playing time (this season at least) for another player to start nearly/around the same number of games depending on how far we go in other competitions. And no our fitness team aren't magical and can't guarantee the forwards availability just like they can't the CMs under their care (before anyone tries that point).
 



GermanRed

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Is Ox not capable of being a forward choice.
Played RM/RW at Arsenal.

IMO he could be a better backup for Mané on the left wing than Origi is - not sure Klopp would try it.

Edit:
In the game against Sporting we started with Origi, Wijnaldum, Milner, Ox, Fabinho and Henderson. What Formation was that and where did Ox play?
 

Scott Jones

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Played RM/RW at Arsenal.

IMO he could be a better backup for Mané on the left wing than Origi is - not sure Klopp would try it.
Come to think of it seem to remember at arse he wanted a more central midfield role,great player to have though and fits Klopp's love for players who can play different positions,i'd love to see him have a full healthy season.
 

GermanRed

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Come to think of it seem to remember at arse he wanted a more central midfield role,great player to have though and fits Klopp's love for players who can play different positions,i'd love to see him have a full healthy season.
Wenger played him as a wing back and I think that was the point where he started to think about leaving Arsenal.
 

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Played RM/RW at Arsenal.

IMO he could be a better backup for Mané on the left wing than Origi is - not sure Klopp would try it.

Edit:
In the game against Sporting we started with Origi, Wijnaldum, Milner, Ox, Fabinho and Henderson. What Formation was that and where did Ox play?
That was a sort of 433/451, with Ox right and Gini left.

I agree about Ox possibly being an option on the left flank as well, if Mane is unavailable and we want someone who can play more in front of the defence than Origi.

Divock is a good player to have there when Klopp wants pace and willingness to go in behind to occupy the space Firmino creates. But there could be scenarios when a more subtle player is needed, who can play more in the inside channel and combine with Robertson. Ox should have the skill set to do both, although maybe lacks the instinct to make the right runs without the ball from that position?
 



Chewbazza

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Why would our fourth choice attacker be a sub/rotation player? I see this claim so much. We play 433 and in the midfield 3 none of Fabinho, Henderson, Keita, Wijnaldum and Ox are considered sub/rotation players. Some would argue Milner too. Yet anyone after Salah, Mane and Firmino in the attacking front 3 is a sub or rotation option? Doesn't make sense. If there is enough playing time for 5/6 "starters" in 3 midfield positions then there must be enough playing time for at least 4 attackers for 3 forward positions?
I'm not sure this is right.

We absolutely have a first choice front three and a first choice back 5. If a player can grab a position on merit after an injury (see Gomez/Matip) then they can and will.

The same for the front three. We had other attackers, but they haven't shown they can be first choice players yet. Any incoming 4th choice attacker would have to prove they deserve to be starting games.

As said, the only reason you can't claim we have a first choice midfield three is because of the history of injuries and form of certain players. At one point the clear first choice 3 was Henderson, Wijnaldum, Lallana. Everyone else was sub/rotation. As Lallana is made of glass and Milner is a machine and massively versatile, he has replaced Lallana as the 3rd midfielder. By the end of last season though, Fabinho has forced his way and arguably it's Fabinho, Henderson, and the last place is probably for Wijnaldum and Keita to fight over while Milner, Ox and Lallana are very capable sub/rotation options.

So:
16/17 Henderson-Wijnaldum-Lallana
17/18 Henderson-Wijnaldum-Milner
End of 18/19 Fabinho-Henderson-Wijnaldum
19/20 Fabinho-Henderson-?

Though at one point before injury, Ox was looking like grabbing a spot.

In my opinion
 
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Anfield rd Dreamer

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I'm not sure this is right.

We absolutely have a first choice front three and a first choice back 5. If a player can grab a position on merit after an injury (see Gomez/Matip) then they can and will.

The same for the front three. We had other attackers, but they haven't shown they can be first choice players yet. Any incoming 4th choice attacker would have to prove they deserve to be starting games.

As said, the only reason you can't claim we have a first choice front three is because of the history of injuries and form of certain players. At one point the clear first choice 3 was Henderson, Wijnaldum, Lallana. Everyone else was sub/rotation. As Lallana is made of glass and Milner is a machine and massively versatile, he has replaced Lallana as the 3rd midfielder. By the end of last season though, Fabinho has forced his way and arguably it's Fabinho, Henderson, and the last place is probably for Wijnaldum and Keita to fight over while Milner, Ox and Lallana are very capable sub/rotation options.

So:
16/17 Henderson-Wijnaldum-Lallana
17/18 Henderson-Wijnaldum-Milner
End of 18/19 Fabinho-Henderson-Wijnaldum
19/20 Fabinho-Henderson-?

Though at one point before injury, Ox was looking like grabbing a spot.

In my opinion
See this is where its actually hard to tell because it all comes down to opinion. In my opinion Ox was most definitely a starter when he was injured and will probably be again when fully up to fitness. Can argue Keita, as our most expensive CM, would be a starter too. Fabinho as our best DM definitely is. Henderson is captain so surely is right? But Wijnaldum is almost an ever present. In reality going purely on minutes played our starting CMs have been;

16/17; Can, Wijnaldum and Lallana (Milner at LB)
Behind those three Henderson played less than 300 minutes less than Lallana. In this season our front 3 was Firmino, Coutinho and Mane, Origi fourth choice not far off the minutes Coutinho and Mane posted.

17/18; Wijnaldum, Henderson and Can. Milner only played 160 minutes less than Can though. In attack it was Firmino, Salah and Mane (3 of our 4 most used players) with Coutinho (only here half a season) on 1509 minutes a massive 1971 minutes less than Mane. Solanke next most used attacker on 726 minutes.

18/19; Wijnaldum, Fabinho and Milner. Henderson as fourth choice was only 25 minutes less than Milner and 105 less than Fabinho. In fact even Keita played just over 400 minutes more than Shaqiri our fourth most used attacker who played a whopping 2896 minutes less than Mane did. That's more playing time than Milner or Henderson (who you listed as a starter) actually got last season.

The front 3 are being played into the ground. Eventually the odds will stack up against us and one or more will get injured. We, at one stage, comfortably had 4 attackers competing for 3 positions when we had Coutinho. Now we are expected to believe there is no room for a fourth attacker? And despite the fact we pick up injuries everywhere else on the park we shouldn't be worried about picking up injuries at LB or in attack because our fitness guys are brilliant. I don't get the logic. Its gambling. It's taking a risk. It might not bite us in the ass but if it does it'll be bad.
 

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See this is where its actually hard to tell because it all comes down to opinion. In my opinion Ox was most definitely a starter when he was injured and will probably be again when fully up to fitness. Can argue Keita, as our most expensive CM, would be a starter too. Fabinho as our best DM definitely is. Henderson is captain so surely is right? But Wijnaldum is almost an ever present. In reality going purely on minutes played our starting CMs have been;

16/17; Can, Wijnaldum and Lallana (Milner at LB)
Behind those three Henderson played less than 300 minutes less than Lallana. In this season our front 3 was Firmino, Coutinho and Mane, Origi fourth choice not far off the minutes Coutinho and Mane posted.

17/18; Wijnaldum, Henderson and Can. Milner only played 160 minutes less than Can though. In attack it was Firmino, Salah and Mane (3 of our 4 most used players) with Coutinho (only here half a season) on 1509 minutes a massive 1971 minutes less than Mane. Solanke next most used attacker on 726 minutes.

18/19; Wijnaldum, Fabinho and Milner. Henderson as fourth choice was only 25 minutes less than Milner and 105 less than Fabinho. In fact even Keita played just over 400 minutes more than Shaqiri our fourth most used attacker who played a whopping 2896 minutes less than Mane did. That's more playing time than Milner or Henderson (who you listed as a starter) actually got last season.

The front 3 are being played into the ground. Eventually the odds will stack up against us and one or more will get injured. We, at one stage, comfortably had 4 attackers competing for 3 positions when we had Coutinho. Now we are expected to believe there is no room for a fourth attacker? And despite the fact we pick up injuries everywhere else on the park we shouldn't be worried about picking up injuries at LB or in attack because our fitness guys are brilliant. I don't get the logic. Its gambling. It's taking a risk. It might not bite us in the ass but if it does it'll be bad.
The front three are the front three. Anyone else coming in will be sub/rotation option by default.

We had Shaqiri,Origi and Sturridge last year and if at any point we had concerns about fatigue or injury, we could have used them. In choosing not to, it was because we had an established first choice front three. In bringing in a new player, the situation will be the same, they will be sub/rotation. And there's nothing wrong with that. You just don't want to be paying them 200k+ from the get go. Which is why Countinho and Dembele were never realistic options.

I don't think there is a single person who has not advocated for buying a forward and a LB, this summer. Others can just understand the reasons why we haven't. The club has been vocal they have been active in the market, they just didn't find the right options to bring players in at the moment.

If people aren't losing their shit about it, it's not because they didn't want a new attacker and a LB, it's because they have listened to Klopp and understand why we haven't brought in players at this point.
 

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The front 3 are being played into the ground. Eventually the odds will stack up against us and one or more will get injured. We, at one stage, comfortably had 4 attackers competing for 3 positions when we had Coutinho. Now we are expected to believe there is no room for a fourth attacker? And despite the fact we pick up injuries everywhere else on the park we shouldn't be worried about picking up injuries at LB or in attack because our fitness guys are brilliant. I don't get the logic. Its gambling. It's taking a risk. It might not bite us in the ass but if it does it'll be bad.
Mane literally just said he’s not had a holiday in 7 years and being tired is all (tapped his head).

Maybe he’s just not wetting the bed, he’s got heart. So there you have it from the horses mouth he is happy having no break and straight back playing.

 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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The front three are the front three. Anyone else coming in will be sub/rotation option by default.

We had Shaqiri,Origi and Sturridge last year and if at any point we had concerns about fatigue or injury, we could have used them. In choosing not to, it was because we had an established first choice front three. In bringing in a new player, the situation will be the same, they will be sub/rotation. And there's nothing wrong with that. You just don't want to be paying them 200k+ from the get go. Which is why Countinho and Dembele were never realistic options.

I don't think there is a single person who has not advocated for buying a forward and a LB, this summer. Others can just understand the reasons why we haven't. The club has been vocal they have been active in the market, they just didn't find the right options to bring players in at the moment.

If people aren't losing their shit about it, it's not because they didn't want a new attacker and a LB, it's because they have listened to Klopp and understand why we haven't brought in players at this point.
But why? Why can we accommodate 5/6 "starters" in 3 CM spots but we are limited to 3 "starters" in attack? None of the "starters" in CM are being underplayed, we were only missing one through injury. Just because we had those players as back up no it doesn't mean they would be used. Not if they aren't good enough. If Klopp is looking at Mane, Salah or even Firmino and thinking "hmmm that guy is a bit fatigued I could do with giving him a rest" is he going to do it if Sturridge is the option? When its do or die in the league and every game is must win? Sturridge plays nothing like our starters? If we can't fit four starting level attackers into the side how come we were really comfortable when we had those three and Coutinho? We have had 4 top attackers at once so to say we can't do it now is illogical. It's already happened.
 



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Mane literally just said he’s not had a holiday in 7 years and being tired is all (tapped his head).

Maybe he’s just not wetting the bed, he’s got heart. So there you have it from the horses mouth he is happy having no break and straight back playing.

I dont know why people are trying to ignore this and acting like it's all make believe. It's a real issue even Klopp has weighed in on that players aren't getting off season breaks and being played into the ground, whether one player talks brash and bold about it or not;


Despite what Mane thinks lack of rest is likely to effect him physically and make him more prone to injuries;


Edit; Also the article doesn't accurately portray what Mane says. He says he hasn't had a holiday longer than 20 days not that he hasn't had a holiday. FifPRO are asking for a set down time of three weeks, 21 days. Mane has certainly had that a few times just not recently.
 

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But why? Why can we accommodate 5/6 "starters" in 3 CM spots but we are limited to 3 "starters" in attack? None of the "starters" in CM are being underplayed, we were only missing one through injury. Just because we had those players as back up no it doesn't mean they would be used. Not if they aren't good enough. If Klopp is looking at Mane, Salah or even Firmino and thinking "hmmm that guy is a bit fatigued I could do with giving him a rest" is he going to do it if Sturridge is the option? When its do or die in the league and every game is must win? Sturridge plays nothing like our starters? If we can't fit four starting level attackers into the side how come we were really comfortable when we had those three and Coutinho? We have had 4 top attackers at once so to say we can't do it now is illogical. It's already happened.
We can do it in the midfield because Naby has been injured so much, Lallana has been injured so much, Ox has been injured so much. So really we were just accomodating Hendo, Gini and Milner while Fab was having his intro season; fighting for a place and establishing hmself as a starter.

What happens if you have an established order is what we see with Migs and Lovren. Now they have accepted they will rarely play they have asked to leave. We know how many games we could have this season, and on paper how many starts that means for players, but the truth is that isn't how it works, and the reality is players move on.

If Naby had brought his form from Red Bull, he'd be a starter most weeks now alongside Fab and 'perhaps' Milner might have decided to move on if he thought he was now a sub/rotation player. But Naby and Fab were brought in for that purpose, to be the new starting CM's. They weren't brought in to be a pool of six rotating players.

For the front three, they played when fit. When they weren't, Origi and DS and Shaqiri stepped in. That's how a squad works.

Now by all means you can replace one of them with a better player, but the point is if you do so and you are paying them 200k+ a week, they have to be good enough to be starters and essentially this summer only Mbappe fits that profile. And yes if we had endless money we could have brought him in, but then he becomes one of the front 3, someone else becomes the rotation option and decides they want to leave, just like Migs and Lovren.
 

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We can do it in the midfield because Naby has been injured so much, Lallana has been injured so much, Ox has been injured so much. So really we were just accomodating Hendo, Gini and Milner while Fab was having his intro season; fighting for a place and establishing hmself as a starter.

What happens if you have an established order is what we see with Migs and Lovren. Now they have accepted they will rarely play they have asked to leave. We know how many games we could have this season, and on paper how many starts that means for players, but the truth is that isn't how it works, and the reality is players move on.

If Naby had brought his form from Red Bull, he'd be a starter most weeks now alongside Fab and 'perhaps' Milner might have decided to move on if he thought he was now a sub/rotation player. But Naby and Fab were brought in for that purpose, to be the new starting CM's. They weren't brought in to be a pool of six rotating players.

For the front three, they played when fit. When they weren't, Origi and DS and Shaqiri stepped in. That's how a squad works.

Now by all means you can replace one of them with a better player, but the point is if you do so and you are paying them 200k+ a week, they have to be good enough to be starters and essentially this summer only Mbappe fits that profile. And yes if we had endless money we could have brought him in, but then he becomes one of the front 3, someone else becomes the rotation option and decides they want to leave, just like Migs and Lovren.
Keeper is completely different than outfield as you dont rotate your keeper and you never play with more than one despite tactical challenges. Mignolet was still happily contributing to the squad for 18 months. Lovren is fourth choice for two positions, yet again you can argue he has been that for the last season too. But the fourth choice for 2 positions is not the equivalent for the fourth choice for three positions. Especially when you take into account the traditional level of rotation and substitutes used in attack versus defence. Even Rafa and Ranieri dont rotate/tinker much with their back 4s. They do their attacks though. Everyone does even Klopp when he has decent options like at Dortmund and till Coutinho left. Nobody is saying that we want a pool of six rotating players. But in CM we have five who it's a bit unclear who are the starters. By most counts and understandings Wijnaldum would be 5th choice but he plays the most because of his versatility. In attack it would probably be similar with Mane. A strong LF comes in and you could argue the new guy, Firmino and Salah are our "starting" front three. But Mane covering all three positions might well end up playing more than any of them. Are you trying to say Mane would then be looking to move on? Despite being the forward who plays the most? Is Wijnaldum looking to move on just because on paper Fabingo (DM), Henderson (Captain) and Ox/Keita (AM) are ahead of him in the pecking order? Despite the fact Gini plays more than them all?
 

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Another aspect is a midfielder can cover for a forward/ defensive position. And most of our midfielders can either play further forward or cover for the back line as emergency option.
Milner - FB and as AM if we play 2 forwards
Fabinho - FB/ CB
Gini - CF/ CB although only a game or so. Attacking midfielder if we play 2 Forwards
Hendo - can play behind as RB, and as AM if we play 2 Forwards
Keita - LF
Ox - RF/ LF

We however can never play Salah, Mane or Origi in any of the positions other than front 3.

So IMO a player in mould of Coutinho could definitely be considered ( I am considering him more of a MF than an attacker for fourth option) but a fourth attacker in mould of Mane or so is difficult option to add.
 



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