Phillippe Coutinho (LW/AM)

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redbj

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I loved the guy when he was here, and I’m no where near as upset when he left the way he did when he did.

But, it’s just to tired to inspire us.

I actually wish him luck, hope he finds happiness, he was awesome for a long time and fairly loyal and respectful until the transfer to Barca saga....and let’s not forget, they were agitating for years prior and he didn’t say boo to a mouse.

He fucked up, but it didn’t taint his time for me.

But no return, to much emotional baggage for me, the triumph needs to be winning trophies, not winning the fans hearts back, to me there’d be too much emotional effort getting to the later, that the former would falter.
 

Red over the water

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I don’t really want him back. Let’s make new heroes. And if we want an attacking midfielder there are some good ones out there like Aouar or Havertz. Coutinho is a good player, better than he’s showing at Barcelona, but I wouldn’t go back if it were me. We’re doing a new thing at Liverpool and he’s missed it.

If Klopp decides to sign him, fine by me. Just giving my opinion, and I wouldn’t go back.
 

Pins88

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I'd take him back just because he's the type of player we need and the type of player that stopped us from winning the league. A player who can unlock defenses.
 

Nikola

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I'm not sure if I'd want him back even if it made financial sense and "squad" sense. Yes, I've always been in awe of his naturally Brazilian skill and Klopp did turn him into an extremely valuable player both on and off the pitch. However, I can't get over the way he left the club, he disrespected everyone from Klopp to a regular Liverpool fan. Bringing him back would send the wrong message to players. You burn your bridge, you don't come back, even if you try to swim over. It's not the same river he crossed a year and a half ago.
 

Scott Jones

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Barca have broken his confidence and he doesn't look the same,he must feel like a right fucking daft cunt all down in the dumps feeling sorry for himself,must be really terrible feeling like that,sitting there with no CL medal, :wave:
 

Prolix

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What's all this nonsense I'm reading about Coutinho not being able to play in a quick-transition scheme? He was a key part of the most gung-ho, high-paced iteration of LFC in recent memory.
 

redbj

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Figures mentioned around the 55mil they still owe us.

At that it starts getting interesting and a serious decision would have to be made by Jurgen

At 100 plus he has no decision to make

( opinion, obviously)
 

Kopstar

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The mirror (according to the TIA article i took it from) gave this breakdown (Bold and underlined are clauses we should have been paid)

£142m maximum. £106m guaranteed.
  • £18 million for Coutinho’s first 100 matches for FCB
  • The Spanish club will pay £4.5m at each 25-match interval to total that £18m
  • £4.5m due if Barca qualify for 2018/19 CL
  • Another £4.5m if they qualify for the 19/20 CL
  • A further £4.5m for winning the CL in 18/19
  • And £4.5m again if they win it in 19/20
He signed a 5 and half year contract with Barca, so the guaranteed payments are probably paid over 5 years. Would these be due in the Winter window or the summer? If the latter, we should have 2 or 3 payments (one from the initial deal in the winter, one last summer and one this summer) which would be about £40-60m paid/payable.

(Given the acrimony the deal could have led to a bigger up front payment - but i havent seen any breakdown of these. Also wasnt there rumours that Coutinho had paid something to get this deal done? Barca were not supposed to have had the funds to complete the deal because of the Dembele deal but i think one of their sponsors put up some cash to make it happen - which may point to a smaller up front payment.)

So, we also have £9m owing for CL qualification the last 2 seasons. They didnt win it, that is £4.5m lost from the maximum price.

He has played 76 games for Barca - so that is a further £13.5 m that should have been paid (as it is payable every 25 games upto £100).

So, if my maths & assumptions are right, the maximum price stands at £137.5m.

We should have been paid (or will have been paid this summer) £9m+£13.5m+£40 to 60m = £62.5m to £82.5m.

£137.5m - £62.5m = £75m
£137.5m - £82.5m = £55m

So, if all payments are up to date (We dont know the due dates so this is a bit tricky) the debt would appear to be between £55m and £75m. IF there is additional money that we are owed but hasnt been paid - then that will presumably have to be paid pretty sharpish if they sell him onto a 3rd party this summer - and how does that work if they are swapping him for Neymar along with other players?

It's fair to assume Countinho will play a further 24 matches for Barca if he stays, and that they will qualify for CL. Therefore, any proposed deal would involving us would probably expect that to be covered as part of the 'buying price'.
I appreciate we're all guessing but these are my workings:

I've not heard of a transfer fee being paid over the duration of the player's new contract before. It's normally paid within 3 years, maximum, in equal six-monthly instalments. Of the £106m I'd expect no more than half (£53m) but probably closer to £46m to still be owing.

Of the contingency payments I think it was reported that it wasn't a CL win that prompted a further £4.5m but reaching at least the semi-final, so that £4.5m should have been paid. The only outstanding contingency payments now being reaching 100 appearances and getting to the semi-final next year.

So currently £133m is the cost of the deal of which, no more than £53m has yet to be paid (unless Barcelona have defaulted).
 

Jaytinho

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Im the type that, even though its just sport, lol I really take players leaving Liverpool in a shitty way seriously. At this moment Im still like fuck Suarez, and Coutinho too. This little prick took money from his own pocket to run away from us. If it happens and Klopp thinks it will be good of the club? Cool, whatever. But I would love for Klopp to pass on this and leave him to learn his brutal lesson in the Barca dungeon. There are so many other talented attacking players we can sign for 70-80m
 

Jaytinho

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But yeah, does anybody know whats the exact balance of what Barca owes us for him though? Would rather use the difference to sign Dembele rather than bring Coutinho back
 

macca1970

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Doubt this would happen.

But if does, then it's because Klopp wants him. Hence if this is the case, it's a no brainer, bring him back.

Wages? We've restructured in the past few years leaning heavily to performance related pay. That why with winning number six, will see us pay out huge bonuses this year. This is the right way to operate - healthy reward for success. So Phil would be coming back on heavily performance related pay, so no issues of turning into a Scum situation with overpaying for a Pogba, and others wanting to match.

In other words, if he comes back, and after a year is one the league's highest earners, it's because we have won either number 19 or number 7, with him contributing.
 

AussieLad

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Doubt this would happen.

But if does, then it's because Klopp wants him. Hence if this is the case, it's a no brainer, bring him back.

Wages? We've restructured in the past few years leaning heavily to performance related pay. That why with winning number six, will see us pay out huge bonuses this year. This is the right way to operate - healthy reward for success. So Phil would be coming back on heavily performance related pay, so no issues of turning into a Scum situation with overpaying for a Pogba, and others wanting to match.

In other words, if he comes back, and after a year is one the league's highest earners, it's because we have won either number 19 or number 7, with him contributing.
Or both.
 

Iluvatar

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At the beginning of the summer if you had offered me Coutinho I'd of said (reluctantly and based on him groveling his ass off) yes. He is a quality player, he plays multiple positions, he knows our club, he knows how we train, how we play, he'd slot back into the mini-Brazil crew we have.

Now watching Brewster I'm like no, small sample size of 2 games but this kid looks the real deal and anyone coming in to take minutes off him I'd be hugely wary of. I'm even a bit undecided on a Dembele type. I honestly think Brewster is going to be a superstar, he has no weakness to his game and if Klopp (and team) can work with him every day, and he stays fit I honestly think we have a Sancho/Mbappe level talent on our hands here and need to give him as many minutes as we can.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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At the beginning of the summer if you had offered me Coutinho I'd of said (reluctantly and based on him groveling his ass off) yes. He is a quality player, he plays multiple positions, he knows our club, he knows how we train, how we play, he'd slot back into the mini-Brazil crew we have.

Now watching Brewster I'm like no, small sample size of 2 games but this kid looks the real deal and anyone coming in to take minutes off him I'd be hugely wary of. I'm even a bit undecided on a Dembele type. I honestly think Brewster is going to be a superstar, he has no weakness to his game and if Klopp (and team) can work with him every day, and he stays fit I honestly think we have a Sancho/Mbappe level talent on our hands here and need to give him as many minutes as we can.
That'll be the Kylian Mbappe who started 4 games during his first senior season? Or Sancho who started 7 games in his? I think people really need to reconsider the expectations they are placing on Brewster. Klopp didn't start Alexander-Arnold as much in his debut season as people are predicting he will Brewster. Not even a third or quarter as much. Whilst here Klopp has had highly promising prospects who have gone on to become world class that he didn't play as much as people seem to expect with Brewster and looking at other top young players they didn't play as much in their first year either. At most we could hope that Brewster (due to time spent with Klopp already) somehow skips the amount of playing time a top young prospect will usually play in their first year and goes straight in at the 20-30 starts level of playing time that these young mega talents tend to get in their second senior seasons (30 for Trent, 23 for Mbappe and 31 for Sancho). We've easily got that much playing time to go round if Brewster earns/merits it with the amount of games we have this season. A Coutinho or other top signing would be taking minutes off Lallana, Origi, Shaqiri and allowing our first choice front 3 some rests. It wouldn't get in the way of Brewster who will play if he is good enough, but within reason.
 

Red Armada

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Wouldn't want him back, not so much because of his antics when he left but because Barcelona Coutinho as further evidenced by his recent Copa America is a shadow of himself. He's lacking confidence, gets easily bullied and has become far more predictable. We sold them a fine player, they broke him. Let them keep him. And in any case, as others have mentioned we could get someone more fitting for the same or less amount of cash.

Besides, chances are that if he does leave, he'll end up as part of a deal for that shithead friend of his, Neymar.
 

Iluvatar

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That'll be the Kylian Mbappe who started 4 games during his first senior season? Or Sancho who started 7 games in his? I think people really need to reconsider the expectations they are placing on Brewster. Klopp didn't start Alexander-Arnold as much in his debut season as people are predicting he will Brewster. Not even a third or quarter as much. Whilst here Klopp has had highly promising prospects who have gone on to become world class that he didn't play as much as people seem to expect with Brewster and looking at other top young players they didn't play as much in their first year either. At most we could hope that Brewster (due to time spent with Klopp already) somehow skips the amount of playing time a top young prospect will usually play in their first year and goes straight in at the 20-30 starts level of playing time that these young mega talents tend to get in their second senior seasons (30 for Trent, 23 for Mbappe and 31 for Sancho). We've easily got that much playing time to go round if Brewster earns/merits it with the amount of games we have this season. A Coutinho or other top signing would be taking minutes off Lallana, Origi, Shaqiri and allowing our first choice front 3 some rests. It wouldn't get in the way of Brewster who will play if he is good enough, but within reason.
Brewster who would of had those minutes last season if he didn't get injured.

Your Sancho comparison is bizarre, aged 17 moving to a new country.. He's 18 and played 30+ games this season.. Brewster is 19..

Mbappe similar he got senior minutes at 16!!! Again Brewster is 19 and missed all of last season when he had been promoted to the 1st team fulltime.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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Brewster who would of had those minutes last season if he didn't get injured.

Your Sancho comparison is bizarre, aged 17 moving to a new country.. He's 18 and played 30+ games this season.. Brewster is 19..

Mbappe similar he got senior minutes at 16!!! Again Brewster is 19 and missed all of last season when he had been promoted to the 1st team fulltime.
It's still their first tastes of senior football. No young players just go from 0 minutes to 1000+ minutes in their first season. Not even those that end up world class like your Mbappe, Ronaldo and Messi types. It just doesn't happen. He hasn't had that exposure to the physical, mental and emotional pressure of senior football. Push too hard and too fast you may damage the development of a player who could become world class. Why would you do that? Klopp doesn't, he didn't with Alexander-Arnold who was one of the worlds best right backs by the end of his third season and our first choice starter by the end or his second. I'm just trying to be realistic over expectations. You and some others are talking like Brewster will be playing a lot more than I believe he will. Even if he goes straight in at "second season" level playing time he still wont come close to scratching the surface on the amount of playing time we need to cover up front. As it stands Lallana, Ox (just talking up front), Shaqiri and Origi will be playing a lot next year. Its not the end of the world but if we did bring in a starting level forward it's the minutes they would have been getting that the new guy would take. It won't harm Brewsters playing time at all. We brought Fabinho and Keita in but Henderson and Wijnaldum still played full seasons. Milner had a lot of playing time in CM too. If we can have 5 players basically playing full time minutes in our 3 man central midfield then we can fill our 3 man attack with Salah, Mane, Firmino, Brewster and another with them also all getting full time minutes. Especially as you traditionally sub forwards more than CMs too so more minutes can be added off the bench.
 

redbj

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Brewster who would of had those minutes last season if he didn't get injured.

Your Sancho comparison is bizarre, aged 17 moving to a new country.. He's 18 and played 30+ games this season.. Brewster is 19..

Mbappe similar he got senior minutes at 16!!! Again Brewster is 19 and missed all of last season when he had been promoted to the 1st team fulltime.
Yep. Agree with you.


It’s gonna be hard to keep a lid on my expectations of Brewster, even though I know I should. He’s still a kid and coming back from a massive set back.

Get hype.
 

Noo Noo

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So currently £133m is the cost of the deal of which, no more than £53m has yet to be paid (unless Barcelona have defaulted).
£53m isn't far off the mark for his return fee is it?

Does this honestly have any legs? I can certainly see Coutinho's agent asking the question on a return but where it goes from there is anyone's guess.

Oh how I would love to be a fly on the wall during the negotiations for this transfer with Barcelona.
 

Iluvatar

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It's still their first tastes of senior football. No young players just go from 0 minutes to 1000+ minutes in their first season. Not even those that end up world class like your Mbappe, Ronaldo and Messi types. It just doesn't happen. He hasn't had that exposure to the physical, mental and emotional pressure of senior football. Push too hard and too fast you may damage the development of a player who could become world class. Why would you do that? Klopp doesn't, he didn't with Alexander-Arnold who was one of the worlds best right backs by the end of his third season and our first choice starter by the end or his second. I'm just trying to be realistic over expectations. You and some others are talking like Brewster will be playing a lot more than I believe he will. Even if he goes straight in at "second season" level playing time he still wont come close to scratching the surface on the amount of playing time we need to cover up front. As it stands Lallana, Ox (just talking up front), Shaqiri and Origi will be playing a lot next year. Its not the end of the world but if we did bring in a starting level forward it's the minutes they would have been getting that the new guy would take. It won't harm Brewsters playing time at all. We brought Fabinho and Keita in but Henderson and Wijnaldum still played full seasons. Milner had a lot of playing time in CM too. If we can have 5 players basically playing full time minutes in our 3 man central midfield then we can fill our 3 man attack with Salah, Mane, Firmino, Brewster and another with them also all getting full time minutes. Especially as you traditionally sub forwards more than CMs too so more minutes can be added off the bench.
You are taking my original point and going way way off track. I think Origi/Lallana/Oxlade will get minutes as you say, my point is I don't think we need another attacker. I think a collection of Origi/Brewster/Oxlade is sufficient cover for our front 3 and if we did bring in a player it would be someone who could play along the front 3 and not midfield and/or wide left (aka what Coutinho brings).

I do think though Brewster will skip the aforementioned "1st season - slow introduction". He is ready, not for the biggest of games, but for the vast portion of them 100%. The guy is immense.
 

Red over the water

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It will be interesting to see how much Brewster will play. On the one hand, he’s missed a lot of football at a key stage through injury. On the other, he’s 19 and is filling out nicely so is presumably better equipped for the demands of the Prem.

My guess is 20 appearances this season, combo of sub and start. And about 7-8 goals. He will also get experience playing across the front three. If Origi starts where he left off last season, it will be enough to complement the needs of the main three.
 

Dhoff3

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Let's take him back on a season loan with an option to buy. Make him earn his way back into the starting 11, I personally think he could be great again. I'd love to see him back firing as a red.
 

T.C.B

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You are taking my original point and going way way off track. I think Origi/Lallana/Oxlade will get minutes as you say, my point is I don't think we need another attacker. I think a collection of Origi/Brewster/Oxlade is sufficient cover for our front 3 and if we did bring in a player it would be someone who could play along the front 3 and not midfield and/or wide left (aka what Coutinho brings).

I do think though Brewster will skip the aforementioned "1st season - slow introduction". He is ready, not for the biggest of games, but for the vast portion of them 100%. The guy is immense.
Plus Shaq and possibly Wilson. Ox can certainly play wide.
 

JMac8

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There’s a lot of revisionism here based on his antics at the end. Before that we all loved our little magician. He’s a quality player who would enhance our squad. I was swearing at the little rat during the CL game but would happily take him back with no emotion either way to give us another weapon in tight games.

As for the team not accepting him...we forget that players don’t think like fans. They think of success and money (order depending on the player). They were probably happy to see him get his dream (nightmare) move and would gladly take him back to help them win the league
 

Drubas

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Plus Shaq and possibly Wilson. Ox can certainly play wide.
Coutinho (despite lacking speed) would be a better backup for the front three, than any of our current options. Coutinho would be an improvement of our best 11, against all teams setting up low block defending. For those reasons alone, I welcome him back with open arms.
 

jimbo

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This transfer has advantages and disadvantages. Personally I don’t think Klopp would want him back. Klopp has been focussing on the chemistry of the dressing room. Players that want to fight for each other. Then again, Phil coming back could be good. He could say to the likes of mane and salah, “guys the grass ain’t greener stay where you are”!!
In terms of players, I’ve been hurt too many times, masch, xabi, Torres, Suarez. I’ve learned that they come and go. Football has changed. There’s not much loyalty anymore.
I would love to have him back, simply because he’s a top talent. He’s a game changer. Incredible player.
If any manager or club can bring him back to confidence and perform to his best again it’s klopp.
I’m sure if he comes and we win the premiership or a cup, and Phil contributes we would of forgotten about his sulking.
Guys that’s players for you! and the modern game. So I don’t care about the sentiment with them. As long as we win and Klopp is our manager - fine by me
 
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