POST MATCH: Arsenal 1-1 Liverpool (EPL 3/11/18 5.30pm)

Man of the match

  • Alisson

    Votes: 1 0.7%
  • Alexander-Arnold

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Gomez

    Votes: 6 4.1%
  • Van Dijk

    Votes: 89 60.1%
  • Robertson

    Votes: 15 10.1%
  • Fabinho

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Milner [GOAL 61’]

    Votes: 21 14.2%
  • Wijnaldum

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Mane

    Votes: 7 4.7%
  • Salah [off 90 + 4’]

    Votes: 7 4.7%
  • Firmino [off 80’]

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Shaqiri [on 80’]

    Votes: 1 0.7%
  • Matip [on 90 + 4’]

    Votes: 1 0.7%

  • Total voters
    148
  • Poll closed .

Red Eyes

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anyone else think Klopp is missing the tactical nouse of Buvac this season? Not a gripe as with a third of the season gone we are a whisker away from a team that was 20 odd points better than us last year. However there does seem to be something tiny missing from last season despite a better squad. Wondering if it's the small input from Buvac 'the brain' on setting up, changes during the game, countering opponents changes etc?
 

Mascot88

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Depends on what our ambition is this season, if it's just to make it top 4, then it's a good result.
This is completely wrong.

We’ve dropped six points out of 33. We’re unbeaten in the league. We’ve only conceded 5 goals.

We’re currently going at a rate that will result in a 94 point finish. Only twice in the Premier League era has that not been enough for the title - last year, and when Chelsea ran off with it Jose’s first year.

This is title form whichever way you look at it. That we’ve pulled together the best squad we’ve had since 1990 at the same time as City’s corruption of the league is unfortunate, but we shouldn’t let that stop us apppauding the performance so far.

Let’s just take care of our own business and aim for a mid ninety point finish. See where that leaves us.
 

Mascot88

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anyone else think Klopp is missing the tactical nouse of Buvac this season? Not a gripe as with a third of the season gone we are a whisker away from a team that was 20 odd points better than us last year. However there does seem to be something tiny missing from last season despite a better squad. Wondering if it's the small input from Buvac 'the brain' on setting up, changes during the game, countering opponents changes etc?
Yeah, he is definitely missing Buvac. We’ve only taken 27 points from 33, and are going 2.5 points a game.

Need him back ASAP.
 

Red Eyes

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Yeah, he is definitely missing Buvac. We’ve only taken 27 points from 33, and are going 2.5 points a game.

Need him back ASAP.
my point is that in the big matches you need every weapon available. When Buvac was here, we all valued him and so did Klopp for many many years, it's bizarre to say now that when he's gone he never added any value to tactics or the club. Yes we have taken 27 from 33 and are doing great. However there is a possibility that we may have converted draws against Arsenal, City, Chelsea into three points with another set of eyes and ideas from a guy who's judgement Klopp trusted. If you want to qualify top four, we are well on target. If you want to win the premiership, we need to be beating top 4 clubs like City are
 

Noo Noo

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That's what I keep saying when jaffod packs out his theories. There is no sinister agenda against us, but it's indisputable that a large majority of English refs are truly beyond hope. The sad truth is that the self-professed 'best league in the word' is refereed by guys who would quickly be taken out of their job if they dared displaying similar consistent shite in Germany's Bundesliga or France's Ligue 1.
Yep, couldn't agree more, as Saturday proved. Some rather bizarre decisions which went against us but to be fair also for us when you think Fabinho could have been shown a second yellow.

Just a pretty poor standard
 

costared

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Unfortunately 2 of our big summer signings are struggling to handle the EPL at the moment. Keita and Fabinho really need to get up to speed pretty damned quick now.
 

Noo Noo

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This is completely wrong.

We’ve dropped six points out of 33. We’re unbeaten in the league. We’ve only conceded 5 goals.

We’re currently going at a rate that will result in a 94 point finish. Only twice in the Premier League era has that not been enough for the title - last year, and when Chelsea ran off with it Jose’s first year.

This is title form whichever way you look at it. That we’ve pulled together the best squad we’ve had since 1990 at the same time as City’s corruption of the league is unfortunate, but we shouldn’t let that stop us apppauding the performance so far.

Let’s just take care of our own business and aim for a mid ninety point finish. See where that leaves us.
Also worth noting that if City continue as they have started they are on course for another 100 point season.

Nothing we can do about that apart from when you play them.

While we are currently on course for that 90+ point season as you say I still think we will need to improve to achieve it.

Chelsea are also there as well.
 

Noo Noo

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Unfortunately 2 of our big summer signings are struggling to handle the EPL at the moment. Keita and Fabinho really need to get up to speed pretty damned quick now.
Yeah, I would have put money on Keita having more of an impact straight off. Glad I didn't!
 

Mascot88

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Yeah, I would have put money on Keita having more of an impact straight off. Glad I didn't!
I think that was the clubs plan as well. He was certainly thrown in to the first two games, in contrast to Fabinho, Ox, Robertson etc, and since then he has been a bit thrown by niggly injuries.

I’m sure he’ll be fine, but it’s been a bit stop start and he hasn’t been able to get on a run.
 
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anyone else think Klopp is missing the tactical nouse of Buvac this season? Not a gripe as with a third of the season gone we are a whisker away from a team that was 20 odd points better than us last year. However there does seem to be something tiny missing from last season despite a better squad. Wondering if it's the small input from Buvac 'the brain' on setting up, changes during the game, countering opponents changes etc?
We had tactical 'problems' with Buvac. We were slow to change then. I do feel we are lacking tactically however we have a better squad now which is doing a good job at covering any tactical defiance quite well. This is why we are in 3rd place and not below the 6th place.
To be honest I think that we just have a few too many players that are not in form to be up at the top. Form isn't permanent so we can realistically hope and even beleive in an up turn. (Just hope our Defense and Goalkeeper keep up their good work all season long allowing the rest of the team to find their bearings).
 

Commando

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I can't speak for other forumites but, if anybody had asked me pre season whether I'd be happy to be in this position after eleven games then I'd have said yes.
Happy that we're unbeaten. Happy that we've conceded so few goals. Happy that we now seem able to get points when we have an off day. Happy that the team at the top of the league who are putting six goals past their opponent sing a song about us SEVEN times during that victory. Happy that they are so obsessed/afraid of us that even when it's all peachy in their garden, they're still keeping one eye on us.
I go to most city home games as Mrs CDO is a city season ticket holder and I have to take her. Just sitting there listening to the fans around me confirms that they're obsessed with us. Most conversations tend to drift back to how we're doing.
 

Limiescouse

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Yep, couldn't agree more, as Saturday proved. Some rather bizarre decisions which went against us but to be fair also for us when you think Fabinho could have been shown a second yellow.

Just a pretty poor standard
But even that there a perception developed that he was in danger is a marker of how poorly the game was refed.
 

geebo

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I think there is a massive problem..... not with Klopp, or the team or the tactics but with the fans.

fans are taking the best attacking play (not overall play) of last year , and are using that as the average of last year. This is a human trait, to remember a concert or film of series, or game better than it/ they were and we do it by adding the good parts together and simply forgetting the bad parts. Part of the blame, and which reinforces this are "best of" videos.

If we are so bad now, missing something, then why have we made the best start to the season for ages? why are we up there with the teams fighting for 1st place? This is all a step better than last year.
If anything has changed it is that Klopp has bought in new players and slightly rejigged of tactic to slightly more defensive. And remember, defences win leagues, not attacks... You can argue this individual points all you like but if nothings wrong, it dont need fixing !

I suggest watching our worst games of last year to get a bit more perspective. As an older poster, I believe they resemble more and more the 80s Liverpool. They didnt always look good, but they were professionals, super confident in their own abilities and could get the job done ! I thnk we are getting more and more like that now, and really thats the difference between the level we were last year and the top level we are moving towards.
 

ILLOK

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my point is that in the big matches you need every weapon available. When Buvac was here, we all valued him and so did Klopp for many many years, it's bizarre to say now that when he's gone he never added any value to tactics or the club. Yes we have taken 27 from 33 and are doing great. However there is a possibility that we may have converted draws against Arsenal, City, Chelsea into three points with another set of eyes and ideas from a guy who's judgement Klopp trusted. If you want to qualify top four, we are well on target. If you want to win the premiership, we need to be beating top 4 clubs like City are
At this stage last season we were being smashed by City and Spurs, throwing away leads against Sevilla and struggling to create against United.

I couldn't honestly say either way whether Buvac would have made a difference or not, it's pure guesswork. What I do know is this has been an incredibly tough start but we're keeping the pace.

We've had 15 games this season and 7 of those were City, Chelsea x2, Arsenal, Spurs, Napoli and Psg. It's tough enough playing those sides at any time but even more so when you have to play 2 or 3 consecutively. The only one of those games we were genuinely bad in was the Napoli game, the rest we were either competitive or the better side.
 

Zinedine Biscan

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I've found myself wondering about Buvac's influence in recent weeks. By all accounts he was the guy doing the work on the training pitch to make sure our pressing system functioned properly. Now that he's gone I'm wondering whether our different approach this season is a conscious development or ultimately down to the fact the guy who coached that aspect is no longer around.

That it's a good start to the season in terms of points gained is undeniable, but I'm increasingly concerned at the lacklustre performances of our forwards in particular.
 

santana

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i don't see man city a strong team , i see chelsea a strong team , and i think it is time for liverpool to change play style and try 343 with ( gomez vvd lovren ) with milner keita fabinho gini in midfield then you got a lot of power to cover defenders and make forwards better .
 

Caradoc

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When I read threads like this where its all doom and gloom and negativity despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary I tend to recall the following:



Some posters seem to have lost their grip on reality and completely abandoned their sense of perspective. Sorry ...... I don’t mean to offend anyone but it just does my freakin’ head in ...... ! If you can’t just sit back and enjoy what Klopp is doing with our football team now then I truly despair ....... ! :((
 
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eng.amohd

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I am genuinely amused by the general attitude here. People seem to be either happy by the results (utopia view) OR disappointed by the performances (full doom and gloom meltdown). You apparently can't have a logical critical view of both...

I am very happy with the results and our great start especially given our fixture list wasn't kind, and I like the fact that we are seeing out games in a professional manner with a solid defense, but I am equally worried by our lacklustre performances. Everyone is talking about "form of champions" and "don't look good but get the job done", but I believe you don't get the job done every game. We need to increase our goals scored against weak teams, and get the job done against the top guns. We are poor at times, and teams make us look uncomfortable and lack assertiveness, not that we specifically plan to slow things down. That coupled with the explicit fact that our attack isn't clicking and isn't consistent is what worries me, especially that we know we have the players and the manager to perform much better than this.
 
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Caradoc

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I am genuinely amused by the general attitude here. People seem to be either happy by the results (utopia view) OR disappointed by the performances (full doom and gloom meltdown). You apparently can't have a logical critical view of both...

I am very happy with the results and our great start especially given our fixture list wasn't kind, and I like the fact that we are seeing out games in a professional manner with a solid, but I am equally worried by our lacklustre performances. Everyone is talking about "form of champions" and "don't look good but get the job done", but I believe you don't get the job done every game. We need to increase our goals scored against weak teams, and get the job done against the top guns. We are poor at times, and teams make us look uncomfortable and lack assertiveness, not that we specifically plan to slow things down. That coupled with the explicit fact that our attack isn't clicking and isn't consistent is what worries me, especially that we know we have the players and the manager to perform much better than this.

Amused? That sums you up really! You won’t ever be happy. This is the most competitive league that I can remember with an extremely unlevel playing field in terms of club wealth and playing resources, and UEFA’s and FIFA’s impotence in enforcing their own rules on FFP. They are closing the stable door after the horse has bolted with clubs like Man City, Chelsea and PSG having already stolen a huge march on other clubs.

What is happening at Anfield, all things considered, is nothing short of astonishing. But reading threads like this one you’d think we were still way behind the very best sides. I’ve supported LFC for over 50 years and this is the best period that I can remember for many years with still obvious room for improvement. Yet the criticism and negativity continues which is just plain bonkers!
 

Mascot88

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I am genuinely amused by the general attitude here. People seem to be either happy by the results (utopia view) OR disappointed by the performances (full doom and gloom meltdown). You apparently can't have a logical critical view of both...

I am very happy with the results and our great start especially given our fixture list wasn't kind, and I like the fact that we are seeing out games in a professional manner with a solid, but I am equally worried by our lacklustre performances. Everyone is talking about "form of champions" and "don't look good but get the job done", but I believe you don't get the job done every game. We need to increase our goals scored against weak teams, and get the job done against the top guns. We are poor at times, and teams make us look uncomfortable and lack assertiveness, not that we specifically plan to slow things down. That coupled with the explicit fact that our attack isn't clicking and isn't consistent is what worries me, especially that we know we have the players and the manager to perform much better than this.
To me it’s a classic example of Rafa’s blanket.

There seems to be an expectation that we can continue to play the free flowing attacking football from last year, knocking in goal after goal, while simultaneously tightening up at the back and controlling games.

I think that the greater solidity we’ve seen this year (that, by the way, has given us our best start to a Premier League season) has been because we haven’t just come out swinging and tried to turn every game into a slugfest.

I think Klopp recognised that we cannot just go into every game trying to smash five goals past teams, because while we’re good enough to swat away a lot of sides like that, more often than we can afford we’ll get caught out. I’m thinking if Sevilla, of the second leg of the Roma tie, Swansea, West Brom, the Arsenal draw etc

I think we saw this against Southampton. Yeah, we could have finished that game 6-2. There was no way we were losing it. But I think Klopp subbing Shaq off a half time was him saying We don’t do this anymore. We don’t play wide open. We don’t allow chance after chance. But it’s only Southampton, why not give them the twatting they were resigned to? Because there are tougher tests to come and Klopp is trying to get his lads playing in a style that won’t risk them getting picked off by a better/luckier side.
 

Limiescouse

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I've found myself wondering about Buvac's influence in recent weeks. By all accounts he was the guy doing the work on the training pitch to make sure our pressing system functioned properly. Now that he's gone I'm wondering whether our different approach this season is a conscious development or ultimately down to the fact the guy who coached that aspect is no longer around.

That it's a good start to the season in terms of points gained is undeniable, but I'm increasingly concerned at the lacklustre performances of our forwards in particular.
It may be worth mentioning that while we are clearly consciously being more reserved without the ball this year, Klopp has mentioned a couple of times now games in which the press was not working as well as he wanted. For Saturday his issue was the shape, saying that you cannot just press because someone tells you, instead you have to be set up to perform it correctly and we were not in those positions often enough to do it well
 

eng.amohd

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Amused? That sums you up really! You won’t ever be happy. This is the most competitive league that I can remember with an extremely unlevel playing field in terms of club wealth and playing resources, and UEFA’s and FIFA’s impotence in enforcing their own rules on FFP. They are closing the stable door after the horse has bolted with clubs like Man City, Chelsea and PSG having already stolen a huge march on other clubs.

What is happening at Anfield, all things considered, is nothing short of astonishing. But reading threads like this one you’d think we were still way behind the very best sides. I’ve supported LFC for over 50 years and this is the best period that I can remember for many years with still obvious room for improvement. Yet the criticism and negativity continues which is just plain bonkers!
Klopp has done, and is doing, wonders, no one can deny that fact. This season we are a much more mature team. The fact that we are treating a draw at Arsenal and City as a loss shows how much we've improved from being a midtable team. This has raised our expectations a lot, and given we got probably best LFC team in the PL era, we need to win something. I would be VERY disappointed if this particular squad with Klopp failed to win the league or the UCL. We are very much up to it but there always seem that something is missing.
 

Zinedine Biscan

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It may be worth mentioning that while we are clearly consciously being more reserved without the ball this year, Klopp has mentioned a couple of times now games in which the press was not working as well as he wanted. For Saturday his issue was the shape, saying that you cannot just press because someone tells you, instead you have to be set up to perform it correctly and we were not in those positions often enough to do it well
Yup. I think there are some legitimate causes for concern that things we're not doing this season that we did last season are not all deliberate. Last season there was a notable drop-off in performance after Buvac left the club, and while it was easy to gloss over at the time as a consequence of our run to the CL final while carrying some key injuries, is it not slightly worrying that we haven't really put in a great 90-minute performance since April?

I might be less worried if Klopp was entirely happy with how it was going and saying yes, we're not doing so much of this because we're doing more of this, but as you say he seems to feel keenly that we're not performing to the level we should.

This is not said as a way of complaining about how we've done so far this season - to be competing right at the top end after over a quarter of the season and some tricky fixtures gone is beyond my expectations - but concern that unless we do put right what's not working currently ultimately the season will not play out as hoped.
 

eng.amohd

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To me it’s a classic example of Rafa’s blanket.

There seems to be an expectation that we can continue to play the free flowing attacking football from last year, knocking in goal after goal, while simultaneously tightening up at the back and controlling games.

I think that the greater solidity we’ve seen this year (that, by the way, has given us our best start to a Premier League season) has been because we haven’t just come out swinging and tried to turn every game into a slugfest.

I think Klopp recognised that we cannot just go into every game trying to smash five goals past teams, because while we’re good enough to swat away a lot of sides like that, more often than we can afford we’ll get caught out. I’m thinking if Sevilla, of the second leg of the Roma tie, Swansea, West Brom, the Arsenal draw etc

I think we saw this against Southampton. Yeah, we could have finished that game 6-2. There was no way we were losing it. But I think Klopp subbing Shaq off a half time was him saying We don’t do this anymore. We don’t play wide open. We don’t allow chance after chance. But it’s only Southampton, why not give them the twatting they were resigned to? Because there are tougher tests to come and Klopp is trying to get his lads playing in a style that won’t risk them getting picked off by a better/luckier side.
I agree by what you say and agree that part of being more mature is to not afford being caught out easily, and regarding Southampton, I think thats what Klopp thought of during the game. However, that time we had Chelsea twice, Napoli and City to play.
If circumstances and fixtures were different, I'd rather see us destroy Cardiff and Southampton, and be reserved against team that could actually hurt us.

City played us and seemed content with a point from Anfield, but they don't do this against Cardiff, Burnley and Fulham.

After all losing a title race by goals scored is very disappointing.
 

eng.amohd

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Yup. I think there are some legitimate causes for concern that things we're not doing this season that we did last season are not all deliberate. Last season there was a notable drop-off in performance after Buvac left the club, and while it was easy to gloss over at the time as a consequence of our run to the CL final while carrying some key injuries, is it not slightly worrying that we haven't really put in a great 90-minute performance since April?

I might be less worried if Klopp was entirely happy with how it was going and saying yes, we're not doing so much of this because we're doing more of this, but as you say he seems to feel keenly that we're not performing to the level we should.

This is not said as a way of complaining about how we've done so far this season - to be competing right at the top end after over a quarter of the season and some tricky fixtures gone is beyond my expectations - but concern that unless we do put right what's not working currently ultimately the season will not play out as hoped.
You have spoken exactly my mind.
 



Caradoc

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What are these ‘hopes’ and ‘expectations’. I just don’t see how this season has played out better than most had ‘hoped’ so far but won’t play out as they ‘hope’ if we don’t address obvious issues. That’s a clear contradiction and therefore complete nonsense in my book.

And are we seriousy claiming that Klopp is actively not looking to pile the goals on against vulnerable opposition this season because that’s no longer the way we play? Seriously?
 

Caradoc

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Klopp has done, and is doing, wonders, no one can deny that fact. This season we are a much more mature team. The fact that we are treating a draw at Arsenal and City as a loss shows how much we've improved from being a midtable team. This has raised our expectations a lot, and given we got probably best LFC team in the PL era, we need to win something. I would be VERY disappointed if this particular squad with Klopp failed to win the league or the UCL. We are very much up to it but there always seem that something is missing.

There will always be something ‘missing’.

We will win trophies when we are ready to win them. You can’t just demand them. That is the problem with the modern football supporter.

Expectations will rise to whatever level supporters choose to lift them not managers or players. I’m realistic in my expectations. I keep them in context and perspective. That’s the difference between me and you/too many posters to this thread.

I don’t worry about what City or Chelsea are doing. I don’t expect miracles from Klopp and his players purely because I demand trophies. I just need to be able to see that things are moving smoothly in the right direction. If its ever going to happen that’s the only way its going to happen.

You either believe in Klopp or you don’t. Until he gives me a good reason not to - and certainly so long as he is so obviously improving things across the board - I believe in him. There is a lot of disingenuity on here right now from posters insisting that they ‘believe’ in Klopp but at the same time criticising our performances practically every single game.
 

Limiescouse

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What are these ‘hopes’ and ‘expectations’. I just don’t see how this season has played out better than most had ‘hoped’ so far but won’t play out as they ‘hope’ if we don’t address obvious issues. That’s a clear contradiction and therefore complete nonsense in my book.
I think it is the idea that we are riding our luck and eventually it will run out. I think that is a reasonable idea that to maintain the sort of points return we've had a team that isn't actually playing well will eventually need to improve.

EXCEPT, what I think it gets wrong is that it only focuses on what we have been doing with the ball. We clearly as not as fun and swashbuckling as we were, but we have barely had a game that we deserved to lose. I think it misrepresents it to equate what we've been going through as struggling. If we continue to be this difficult to play against and break down, we will continue to get good results even if the fun with the ball does not return.
 
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RedLar

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Yep, couldn't agree more, as Saturday proved. Some rather bizarre decisions which went against us but to be fair also for us when you think Fabinho could have been shown a second yellow.

Just a pretty poor standard
I will bring to mind the two pens we got in the first match against red star Belgrade at Anfield. Plus, the decision to award a pen to Roma against Milner in last years CL at Anfield. Each decision affected us, and each was really poor in my opinion. European refs for both.

Point is, poor decision making is not the purview of English referees, it's rather symptomatic of a sport in which most of its officiating is handled by men who have rarely kicked a competitive ball themselves, and (guessing here) are likely paid less than 100th the amount of some of the players. Not that this is wrong in itself, but the point stands, poor officialdom is not monopolized in England.

I actually found myself applauding and laughing the same time, at the young English ref who sent off Buffoon in last years CL semi final. Correct decision for the pen. Correct to send off Buffoon. Totally kept his bottle. Unlike Buffoon.

In the end with refs and decisions, you win some and you lose some. Even with VAR, you are going to win some, and lose some.

And yes, Buffoon is intentionally spelled wrong......
 

santana

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arsenal's fan was happy .. why ?
because it is a bout levels !
if you want to be a champion then you must think , feel and act like a champion !
and this means more .