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Post-match discussion: LFC - Aston Villa 2 - 2

redandwhite3

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OOTer said:
Maybe. But, in defence of Mig, he wasn't that far from his line when he made contact and he has to decide if Benteke can beat Johnson in the air even if Johnson thinks it's his ball and calls for it. The only mistake he made was not getting distance on it imo
That is a fair point mate and i agree he has to sometime make a call the goalkeeper but worry for me is showed a lack of faith in johnson ablity to deal with benteke. Deep down the question should be where your center backs were to leave their fullback and goalkeeper having to deal with quality striker getting a ball out wide.

toure and skirtel lack of communication between the two of them is very bad indeed at times. i be amazed if they play often together again as their be awful parternship when put together of late. when they been together at hull, stoke and home to villa they let in total of 8 goals.
 

mattyhurst

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The elephant in the room and it's blowing its trumpet but fucking hell you seem to have all missed it, you can blame the entire defence but it's only looked a shambles when it's become the bare bones it hasn't looked great on set pieces before the last few games but now it just doesn't look good full stop.

No team in the premier league will have played as many different defenders or combinations than us out of nessacity due to injuries, it is mainly that which is causing us issues, the first half reminded me of the awfulness that inflicted some of our worst defeats last season, we simply didn't until recently have an issue with punts up field and knock downs this season but we did yesterday and we did at a Stoke.

Effectively we are one injury away from our barest back line, we need signings yes, but to say the defence needs a major re haul, yes it does it could start with having it back fit and options from which to choose from, because personally 3 of our best defenders are out injured and young Flanagan looked so much better than Johnson or Cissoko.

All this will impact on a goalkeeper and vice versa look to when the bad form for Mignolet started, in fact up until the major re haul at the back we were only conceding the odd one which though needs cutting out could still be dealt with.

As for having to play together this back four has to because the rest of it is injured for fucksake.
 

He Drinks Sangria

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Urban Achiever said:
I want to convince you that no matter who's playing left back... crosses will come into the box and when an unpressured keeper makes mistakes like that, it doesn't matter who's playing. Yes you are right that if Cissokho hadn't gotten caught we could have prevented tha cross or the goal, but it's highly unrealistic to expect no crosses to come into the box during 90 minutes of football... which is why I say Mignolet should have either stayed and just let Johnson head it away (which Glenn was in a perfect position to do) or have come out and caught the ball. Do you seriously believe that Schmeichel, Buffon or Cech would have done what Mignolet did ?

I'll say what I will about Kelly, yes please.... you know what's pathetic? Hoping for players to come on when managers obvioulsy don't want to use them.... and talking up benchplayers because you never actually get proven wrong when they never come on. I have no problems with Kelly... I like him.... but the point wasn't about his "effort" as you try to put it, but about the fact that one cross should not have given the goal away. Cissokho is not very good... I have never claimed that... but to blame him for the goal when Mignolet made such a mistake is ridiculous. It's not about me not wanting to play Kerry.... you know I don't pick the team.... but the guy who does obviously don't rate him.

There always has to be one scapegoat who get's blamed for absolutely everything. In my view people are blaming him way too much... it clears off other players who are much more important and should honestly perform better than a third choice fullback loan player. If we are that dependent on his effort Rodgers is doing something wrong.
Cissokho will be out of the team again next week and won't be back at all... unless 2 or 3 players get injured again. that is the reality of the situation. Mignolet however can make a mistake like that again anytime a cross is allowed.... and trust me that will happen again.... which is a very, very, very much bigger issue.

I agree with you that we need quality but we haven't got in and then we must get by which is everyones responsibility... especially the managers.
Oh trust me, I don't think Cissokho would've stopped the cross, but him being in position would've kept the rest of the defenders in position and we'd've had a centre back to challenge Benteke in the air. Who knows, maybe Mignolet would've been more comfortable then and not rushed out. I don't know if he made a mistake in rushing out, but he definitely should've got more on the ball.

My point about effort from Kelly is that it's exactly what we don't get from Cissokho. I don't see what's pathetic about wanting a manager to play one player over another, especially when the latter played so poorly for the full 90 minutes. At any rate, how do we know Rodgers doesn't rate Kelly? He's been injured for most of Brendan's tenure
 

redandwhite3

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mattyhurst said:
The elephant in the room and it's blowing its trumpet but fucking hell you seem to have all missed it, you can blame the entire defence but it's only looked a shambles when it's become the bare bones it hasn't looked great on set pieces before the last few games but now it just doesn't look good full stop.

No team in the premier league will have played as many different defenders or combinations than us out of nessacity due to injuries, it is mainly that which is causing us issues, the first half reminded me of the awfulness that inflicted some of our worst defeats last season, we simply didn't until recently have an issue with punts up field and knock downs this season but we did yesterday and we did at a Stoke.

Effectively we are one injury away from our barest back line, we need signings yes, but to say the defence needs a major re haul, yes it does it could start with having it back fit and options from which to choose from, because personally 3 of our best defenders are out injured and young Flanagan looked so much better than Johnson or Cissoko.

All this will impact on a goalkeeper and vice versa look to when the bad form for Mignolet started, in fact up until the major re haul at the back we were only conceding the odd one which though needs cutting out could still be dealt with.

As for having to play together this back four has to because the rest of it is injured for fucksake.
You do have injuries at back and missing your back two full backs in flanagan and enique. but bar agger you don,t have a top class center back the club and that could be sorted out in jan if you try to get a lescott type player in,
 

Urban Achiever

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Bring Me My Bow said:
Oh trust me, I don't think Cissokho would've stopped the cross, but him being in position would've kept the rest of the defenders in position and we'd've had a centre back to challenge Benteke in the air. Who knows, maybe Mignolet would've been more comfortable then and not rushed out. I don't know if he made a mistake in rushing out, but he definitely should've got more on the ball.

My point about effort from Kelly is that it's exactly what we don't get from Cissokho. I don't see what's pathetic about wanting a manager to play one player over another, especially when the latter played so poorly for the full 90 minutes. At any rate, how do we know Rodgers doesn't rate Kelly? He's been injured for most of Brendan's tenure
I know what you mean about the defense being unbalanced because Cissokho got caught.... I'm just saying that we cannot avoid stuff like that to ever happen and that Mignolet should have caught it.

Kelly looks like a dead man walking at LFC if he cannot get a game in this situation. Rodgers clearly does not think he's good enough. He's had many chances to play him.... not only because of Cissokho.... and he doesn't.
 

lovepool

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redandwhite3 said:
You do have injuries at back and missing your back two full backs in flanagan and enique. but bar agger you don,t have a top class center back the club and that could be sorted out in jan if you try to get a lescott type player in,
Sakho is a top defender. You talk up average midfielders like Arteta and Flamini yet say Sakho isn't a good defender?
 

He Drinks Sangria

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Urban Achiever said:
I know what you mean about the defense being unbalanced because Cissokho got caught.... I'm just saying that we cannot avoid stuff like that to ever happen and that Mignolet should have caught it.

Kelly looks like a dead man walking at LFC if he cannot get a game in this situation. Rodgers clearly does not think he's good enough. He's had many chances to play him.... not only because of Cissokho.... and he doesn't.
Surely a seasoned professional like Cissokho should be more effective than Kelly, so I can see why Rodgers picked him. We'll have to wait and see who gets picked next week

redandwhite3 said:
You do have injuries at back and missing your back two full backs in flanagan and enique. but bar agger you don,t have a top class center back the club and that could be sorted out in jan if you try to get a lescott type player in,
Disagreed, I rate Sakho, and Skrtel is much better when paired with Agger or Sakho
 

slufsar

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Mignolet made a mistake, but Villa shouldnt have been outplaying us in such manner at Anfield. We were wide open and they could counter attack on us endlessly. The real issue isnt Mignolets mistake or Cissokho dribbling into players attempting to attack. The real issue is that Villa for a large amount of time outplayed us.

It was nothing like last season, when we controlled the game, but were inefficient, while they exploited the space we handed them perfectly. In the 1st half, we looked like a shiet team playing at Eithad. Only it was at home aigainst Villa.
 

redandwhite3

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Bring Me My Bow said:
Surely a seasoned professional like Cissokho should be more effective than Kelly, so I can see why Rodgers picked him. We'll have to wait and see who gets picked next week

Disagreed, I rate Sakho, and Skrtel is much better when paired with Agger or Sakho
to be fair sakho is very talented and skirtel looks more solid with agger or sakho. but sakho and agger still you best center back partnership.
 

RazvanLFC

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I see people defending Mignolet and saying that it was Johnson`s fault too at their second goal and i cannot believe what I am reading really... It is entirely Mignolet's fault because when your goalkeeper makes that kind of challenge to get the ball in front of his defender he simply has to get it and he didnt full stop.
Also, Cissokho not being a big issue at left back? Maybe, compared to our dm position, but to our style of play it is a big issue that Cissokho is very average. Not that he was helped too much by his teammates yesterday anyway.
Also, Coutinho needs a kick up his arse...

Despite all of our problems in the first eleven, yesterday we lost points because of our tactical naivety. Let`s just hope now our opponents won't get any closer to us.
Anyone knows how long is Lucas out?
 

He Drinks Sangria

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RazvanLFC said:
I see people defending Mignolet and saying that it was Johnson`s fault too at their second goal and i cannot believe what I am reading really... It is entirely Mignolet's fault because when your goalkeeper makes that kind of challenge to get the ball in front of his defender he simply has to get it and he didnt full stop.
Also, Cissokho not being a big issue at left back? Maybe, compared to our dm position, but to our style of play it is a big issue that Cissokho is very average. Not that he was helped too much by his teammates yesterday anyway.
Also, Coutinho needs a kick up his arse...

Despite all of our problems in the first eleven, yesterday we lost points because of our tactical naivety. Let`s just hope now our opponents won't get any closer to us.
Anyone knows how long is Lucas out?
No one's blaming Johnson (that I've seen) the consensus appears to be that Mignolet may not have charged out and made a mistake if it was someone other than Johnson
 

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cardiffpete said:
It always seems like BR has got it in his locker to pull out some incredibly baffling team selections, from time-to-time.

Case in point our 2 home games with dropped points. I'd put the Soton loss mainly down to the failed experiment with 4 CB's and today's draw to playing 4 out-and-out attackers. Just basic imbalance in the team.

BR does seem quick to learn though and is not afraid to learn and adapt, so hopefully this match was just a small glitch. Yet another injury doesn't help though in our already severly depleted defensive-side of our team.

I'd still expect that averaging 2 points a game would net 4th spot and we're still just a fraction off that atm, so still on course for CL ... though the games ahead will be harder to convert - than Villa (at home) should have been. A missed opportunity today.
Yup, BR is a hothead at times, and tends to get a bit cocky at times. This time, it blew into his face, but at least, he got it right in the second half with the decision to put that equilibrium right by introducing a third midfielder. Changing tactics when it doesn't work is something which at least he's ready to do, contrarily to AVB against us for instance, a similarly inexperienced gaffer, but who stubbornly continued with his line-up despite us murdering them time and time again.

Remains the question why BR had to go for such an open midfield in the first place...

I felt a bit sorry for Coutinho who has a difficult period right now, and who was put in a peripheral role on the left in that 422. But taking him off in favour of Lucas was the right move as well.

Besides BR making things difficult for us, the thing which disappointed me most is that despite us getting battered by Villa, we found ourselves level after 51 minutes, against all odds. From there on, we should have pushed on and put the game to bed, we had still 40 minutes to do so, and the Villa players seemed happy to hold on for that draw. But we were unwilling (or unable) to do so, and let the game go on without too much happening.

Definitely two points lost, and we'll have to make them up against Everton now, against whom we have got no room for error anymore. Still better than a defeat I guess, but it definitely feels like one...
 

BostonMick

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OOTer said:
Dunno what to say about this game. But my opinions are:

- should have changed the mid earlier. We were clearly over run. Can understand BR wanting the players to prove they can play that formation as if we want SAS central that is how we need to do it. Or sacrifice a wing.

- sterling was doing more work at RB than Johnson. I try to defend our players but Johnson is way off the pace atm.

- Coutinho played his best games last year when interchanging with Hendo who started LW.

- All the players looked lost as to how to move themselves and the ball. Normally we are well drilled on patterns of play. This above all is why I think the formation failed in the 1st half.

- That was never a pen and twice we've been lucky with decisions. Makes up for the city balls up imo.

- Lucas showed he is our best DM. Simply because he knows the role so well no. What he doesn't offer going forward he more than makes up for in protecting, slowing down and keeping possession. His team mates know what to expect from him and this breeds confidence for those ahead and crucially behind him.

- Allen did well when he came on but Hendo continued to help as much as he did Stevie.

- Hendo and Sterlings workrate deserves a medal.

- I'm pissed but not so pissed as I will be if Everton, Spurs and the Mancs win.

Would you rather Chelsea or Man U win today?
Need ManU to win and Everton to get thrashed (to end the "toughest team to beat" mystique that is surrounding them)
 

He Drinks Sangria

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Hope in your heart said:
Yup, BR is a hothead at times, and tends to get a bit cocky at times. This time, it blew into his face, but at least, he got it right in the second half with the decision to put that equilibrium right by introducing a third midfielder. Changing tactics when it doesn't work is something which at least he's ready to do, contrarily to AVB against us for instance, a similarly inexperienced gaffer, but who stubbornly continued with his line-up despite us murdering them time and time again.
If only that were true. I wish Brendan had made a change before half time; we could all see it was going horribly wrong and yet, seemingly, we had to go 2-0 down first.
 

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Bring Me My Bow said:
If only that were true. I wish Brendan had made a change before half time; we could all see it was going horribly wrong and yet, seemingly, we had to go 2-0 down first.
Well he reacted first by reverting to some sort of 3-5-2. As a result, we finished a bit better towards the end of the half. He then changed players in the 45th minute, but that is understandable, as you don't want to make changes too soon, and then having injuries deprive you of the opportunity to make changes later in the game.

He still made this change though, and could have gone away with it had the team not been unusually flat anyway during that second half, and that had nothing to do with BR's tactics imo, rather with lack of fitness, or not being up to it mentally.

Luis was also one or two notches under his usual stellar level, and that was already enough to leave us in limbo...
 

Upstate_Chad

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lfc.eddie said:
I do have an issue with the bold part.

We have not make profit out of our transfers that we brought in since FSG days. The only possible profit we are going to see is Sturridge and Suarez. There are no signs that Borini is going to get sold for 15mil or more. We bought him for 11.5mil. Assaidi would probably go for 2-3mil, best 4mil. That is a small profit to the club.

As for profit, we should not care too much about the players turning profit after being sold. We are not in the business to sell players for profit, that's small club mentality. We are in the business to win trophies and titles. If we are going to blame anyone on our transfer, it's the owners.
I agree with all that you are saying Eddie. I was addressing the need for some supporters to quiet down about our few "for the future" purchases. It important to invest in today's product, as well as tomorrows.

Believe me, I don't think we should focus on selling for a profit, as you are correct that is a small-market mentality. I was just trying to point out that some of the groan and moan crowd needed to have a more objective eye on the subject.
 

Never Say Never

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The writing was kind of on the wall when Brendan talked about us still being title contenders. Seems to always happen when someone brings up the T word.
 

Maria

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redandwhite3 said:
I think rodgers need to buy proper dem in window. why not go for titoe for newcastle. he big and strong and can cover that role.

That will change this season mate, anyway this thread about liverpool not arsenal.

I just like posting on here and getting the prespective on other teams and debating all things football. i am not that narrow minded that all i talk about is arsenal.
Thanks for posting on here, it is good to hear a neutral fan's alternative perspective who may see things more objectively on the threads.
 

RedJoe

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The glaring, obvious, problems highlighted by yesterday's game have been well documented in this thread. But, for me, the first thing that needs to happen is for BR to grow a pair and bench SG. I, along with just about everyone else on this forum, love SG for all that he has done for the club in the PAST. This is it. I cannot help but feel that BR is selecting SG on PAST REPUTATION and doing everything he can to accommodate him. But time has now caught up with him and he no longer has the legs (especially in a two man midfield). Of course he can still offer a brilliant dead ball and the occasional Hollywood ball that comes off but, on balance, that's nowhere near enough compared to seeing the midfield play just pass him by. A midfield, structured sensibly and with legs, would help enormously with defensive difficulties. The other problems can then be addressed.
 

DCJ

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Loss down to poor management decisions on this one.

Odd team formation in first half, led to us getting got over run with ease and two down before changes made.

Keeps tinkering with the back line every week no wonder they don't seem to know what what other are doing and leaves keeper nervy.

two points down the drain at home, little options on the bench to bring on to changed it…….need something in the january window to bring on and make up your mind on who plays at the back…..for [email protected]*k sake.

good response from team late in first and for most of second half, though ran out of ideas at the end to win the game. Still in the top four mix so all ok but disappointing on points lost.
 

Redbelly

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I'm confident that at the end of the season we will look back at games like Hull and Villa and regret the lost points.
 

DCJ

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RedJoe said:
The glaring, obvious, problems highlighted by yesterday's game have been well documented in this thread. But, for me, the first thing that needs to happen is for BR to grow a pair and bench SG. I, along with just about everyone else on this forum, love SG for all that he has done for the club in the PAST. This is it. I cannot help but feel that BR is selecting SG on PAST REPUTATION and doing everything he can to accommodate him. But time has now caught up with him and he no longer has the legs (especially in a two man midfield). Of course he can still offer a brilliant dead ball and the occasional Hollywood ball that comes off but, on balance, that's nowhere near enough compared to seeing the midfield play just pass him by. A midfield, structured sensibly and with legs, would help enormously with defensive difficulties. The other problems can then be addressed.
Hate to admit but for in some matches recently Stevie is showing his age, making mistakes and off the pace. In Brendan's defence we have not got options in midfield to replace him. lucas off for months and as for Allen a forty year old half fit stevie is miles better.
Redbelly said:
I'm confident that at the end of the season we will look back at games like Hull and Villa and regret the lost points.
southampton?…..and the genius of four centre back formation!
 

anglian_red

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I agree with an earlier poster who said Suarez will probably play from the left if he wants to be part of a proper Champions League team. Probably the left of a front three, like Ribery.

We can play with Suarez & Sturridge upfront in a 4-4-2, so long as one of them drops back and the midfield four are a tight knit industrious bunch. Man City manage it, even in the big games because of their high work rate game in midfield. I don't think there's room for Sterling in such a system and Gerrard hasn't got the energy to do it all the time.

To make it work we'll probably need £40million worth of midfield players, so to avoid that we're better off with Lucas, Allen & Gerrard across a three man midfield with Henderson, Sturridge & Suarez making the front three. Sturridge isn't as lazy as many make out but he's the only one you wouldn't associate with work rate in that 6.
 

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Never Say Never said:
The writing was kind of on the wall when Brendan talked about us still being title contenders. Seems to always happen when someone brings up the T word.
The first time Dortmund became champions a few years ago with Klopp at the helm, they avoided it like the plague, right until the end. They always put the pressure back on Bayern, and it worked very well. I can't see why BR always feels that need to heap pressure on himself and the team with this kind of cocky comments.

Just go on from match to match, it's really no rocket science.
 

charleslee89

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Hope in your heart said:
The first time Dortmund became champions a few years ago with Klopp at the helm, they avoided it like the plague, right until the end. They always put the pressure back on Bayern, and it worked very well. I can't see why BR always feels that need to heap pressure on himself and the team with this kind of cocky comments.

Just go on from match to match, it's really no rocket science.
perhaps, BR doesn't know what that dreaded T means...plus, yesterday's debacle was largely down to him underestimating his opponent.
 

anglian_red

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It's becoming an ongoing joke now that whenever Brendan starts talking big - we get beat.

Remember the 'we just keep churning out wins' before the Southampton game?
 

lovepool

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anglian_red said:
It's becoming an ongoing joke now that whenever Brendan starts talking big - we get beat.

Remember the 'we just keep churning out wins' before the Southampton game?
Have you ever had anything good to say about the club? Ok we drew at home to Villa but it doesn't mean the whole club is rotten from top to bottom

It you are going to be with us in the good times..........
 

lfc.eddie

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Upstate_Chad said:
I agree with all that you are saying Eddie. I was addressing the need for some supporters to quiet down about our few "for the future" purchases. It important to invest in today's product, as well as tomorrows.

Believe me, I don't think we should focus on selling for a profit, as you are correct that is a small-market mentality. I was just trying to point out that some of the groan and moan crowd needed to have a more objective eye on the subject.
Yes of course we should be giving some of them time, but those loans should be looked at now as they are there and not helping the team most of the time. I also think we do have the players we could have in our squad next season that we recruited for the future as you say. The likes of Borini should be used as squad rotation player, rather than go out and buy Aspas and loan Moses who has done lesser than Borini. If the Italian thinks he is good enough to play every week, prove it when given the chance. The manager also needs to know when to change his personnel on the pitch too, rather than wait for it to be forced upon us.

All in, I sure hope we look at this game and recognise our limitations, and also acknowledge we are relying heavily on Suarez and Sturridge, If we fail to provide services to these two to score, we will be in deep shit comes time when we play the likes of Chelsea, City, Everton and to a certain extent Spurs and Southampton when they face us...
 

rippedshorts

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lovepool said:
Sakho is a top defender. You talk up average midfielders like Arteta and Flamini yet say Sakho isn't a good defender?
Arteta and FLamini are average midfielders???
Shocking...