Post Match: Everton 3-3 Liverpool

SF Red

TIA Regular
Joined
Dec 3, 2010
Messages
2,684
ILLOK said:
You're such a miserable, negative bastard (no offence).
That is one of my favorite TIA lines ever.

I watched the match again and as for Allen - I thought he was actually decent until his miss. He won the ball back quite a few times and his off the ball movement making himself available for Lucas, Gerrard, Flanagan and Johnson was very good.

The miss was horrific. We would have won the match if he scored.

But there is a lot of blame to spread around. You can't score 3 goals and not win a match in this league. The best clubs (almost) never do this.

And who is telling Glen Johnson to mark Lukaku? Really should be Skrtel's job iMO, (or Sakho if he is playing).
 

Canuck33

Banned Users
Joined
Aug 31, 2013
Messages
425
SF Red said:
That is one of my favorite TIA lines ever.

I watched the match again and as for Allen - I thought he was actually decent until his miss. He won the ball back quite a few times and his off the ball movement making himself available for Lucas, Gerrard, Flanagan and Johnson was very good.

The miss was horrific. We would have won the match if he scored.

But there is a lot of blame to spread around. You can't score 3 goals and not win a match in this league. The best clubs (almost) never do this.

And who is telling Glen Johnson to mark Lukaku? Really should be Skrtel's job iMO, (or Sakho if he is playing).
I watched the game twice as well. And I agree about Allen. Although I'm not a big fan of him, price tag and former coach and such, I saw him having a good game, nothing outstanding, but quite solid. As you said, always tried to provide an outlet with his movement, winning back balls. I guarantee, he would've been considered our best midfielder on the day bar that horrible miss. I just hope for the lad to recover from it. Must be devastating to him.
 

Joe90

A Dalglish and a Rush and the Cup is ours
Joined
Aug 20, 2013
Messages
1,490
Good Lord. Don't write off Joe Allen just because he missed one shot. OK, it was a sitter, but it happens.

Hell, STRIKERS miss those opportunities. Anyone remember Torres?

Seriously, the way the Liverpool first team plays DOES NOT have some sort of quasi-astrological bearing on your life.

It's just a game. Try to enjoy it for what it is.
 

Arminius

FSG PR plant
Moderator
Joined
Aug 13, 2008
Messages
26,460
Baines out for up to 6 weeks - didn't look like much at the time, but I expect that is going to hurt them. Critical 6 weeks, could be as many as 8 games.
 

Hope in your heart

Loyalty and patience, two undervalued concepts.
Admin
Joined
Jul 16, 2007
Messages
24,059
slufsar said:
Still bothers me how much better Everton played than us tho. Everything hinting towards them being a much better team than us. I hope and maybe think, that they're just better 11v11. They're more likely to drop points in easy games than us.
They'll have Baines missing for six weeks at least. That alone will cost them a few points.
 

gingerbread

TIA Squad Member
Joined
Nov 16, 2010
Messages
5,720
rab said:
Not what I said is it. Allen's chance is easier but it doesn't mean Suarez shouldn't also have scored with a free header from inside the six yard box.

One misses and people say it single handedly cost us the win, the other misses and people make excuses. Would people have the same understanding if Allen had missed the header? If Suarez misses the Allen chance does he get the blame for costing us three points? I have my doubts.

But to reiterate, both should have scored but neither miss is the sole reason for us missing out on the three points.
To be honest, no one can call what should have happened. I means if Allen scored, we may even more likely to sit deeper, and wil still gonna concede the next 2 goals anyway (both were not quite in counter-attacks). Worst we may ended up losing as players scattered losing two goals advantage and Everton kept pushing for a win...


But still Allen miss at that was a bad one, as it's much harder to guide an header (Moses later got another one). So of course he will get the worse blame.
 

lfc.eddie

"¿Plata... O Plomo?"
Joined
Sep 18, 2006
Messages
53,286
Hope in your heart said:
They'll have Baines missing for six weeks at least. That alone will cost them a few points.
Meaning he will be pulling the red of Manchester come February, refreshed and raring to go.
 

Semmy

tho your dreams be tossed and blown
Ad-free Member
Joined
Sep 2, 2013
Messages
9,040
Just started watching... a few notables 20 mins in:

Suarez has not gotten any service. Disconnected transition game...best striker in FA right now and not being utilized to fullest extent.

Henderson/Johnson does not work on right side.

We should buy Ross Barclay. Has has something special.

Guessing Everton won't sell Baines to us?
 

Semmy

tho your dreams be tossed and blown
Ad-free Member
Joined
Sep 2, 2013
Messages
9,040
Won't reiterate the obvious about 1st half, but to note this:

I am fairly certain BR is aware of the midfield issue so will leave that alone.

Coutinho is lost on the wing/flank, he plays best when has 360° of movement available. Once he is pinned on the sidelines it doesnt go well.

Flanagan today reminded me of his debut match. Treat to watch the lad coming of age and seize the opportunity.

Johnson lacking mobility, wonder if he is still nursing a weak ankle.

Too much time sitting back in our end, the moment Baines left the match I would have liked to see a more offensive lineup with Alberto in for Allen. Henderson out for Sturridge. 4-3-1-2. Maybe Sakho in for Skrtel to watch Lukako

edit...how the hell did Allen miss that. Dead to rights that was a sitter if I have ever seen one

not major issues...this is a very entertaining game to watch. Would have been much better to see floating on the ship with a pint in hand.
 

Semmy

tho your dreams be tossed and blown
Ad-free Member
Joined
Sep 2, 2013
Messages
9,040
Not understanding the Moses sub for the formation. Was hoping to see him out left and push Coutinho into CAM where Allen vacated. Henderson hasn't done much but leave him outside and bring the creativity into the middle


Interesting that Mirallas is still on the pitch and set up the tying goal for Lukaku.
 

slufsar

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2013
Messages
1,406
ILLOK said:
The fact that they were at home and had their best 11 out and we didn't doesn't come into your thinking at all. You're such a miserable, negative bastard (no offence). Also you seemingly forget Gerrard played with painkilling injections a few days before the derby but use Allen's injury as an excuse for him, despite him now seemingly fully fit. Odd that. Suarez hadn't even been back for 2 days before playing that game as well. Essentially that means our 3 best players were either fatigued/injured or not even on the pitch.

Everton are not a better side than us, utter nonsense.
They have finished above us for two consecutive seasons and been overall far better in our last three fixtures against each other.
Gerrard playing with pain killers is a legit excuse, but he's been poor for most of the season without painkillers to my knowledge. Allen has only had one game to prove anything. Gerrard has had 12.

I dont think the fatigue of Suarez and Sturridge made that much difference. Everton exposed the weaknesses that has already been visible this season.

I'd agree that it should be expected of Everton to be the best at home, but by such a margin? They had tons of clear cut chances. We were lucky we had Mignolet.
 

slufsar

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2013
Messages
1,406
REDSkins said:
Above all else, it was a great game. Was horrified when we went down 3-2. But happy we went for the win, even if we nearly lost it. We shouldn't accept draws, even away from home, so I'm hoping BR pushes the team hard in every match and not just against rivals.

Do you guys think Agger & Skrtel were really that poor? Agger could have been better overall, but Lukaku got nowhere in open play. Through halftime, I forgot Lukaku even existed. If Glen is the one marking Lukaku on set plays, what difference would Sakho have made? Sakho hasn't been flawless defending set pieces either. And us getting carved open at the end was not really a CB issue. Or am I overlooking some mistakes?

Flanagan had Deulofeu in his pocket! Got beat once or twice by Barkley, but Flanno should keep his place in the team next week. Great stuff.

Mignolet deserves free lunch for the week...
Very good post (shame im out of votes to give for the day)

I dont think Skrtel and Agger were that poor. What I saw was 3 or 4 Everton attackers countering against our two cb's on several occasions. This didnt directly lead to a goal, albeit a lot of massive chances, their positioning may have influenced the Everton attackers to shoot from poor angles, making the wrong passes etc.
 

Semmy

tho your dreams be tossed and blown
Ad-free Member
Joined
Sep 2, 2013
Messages
9,040
slufsar said:
Very good post (shame im out of votes to give for the day)

I dont think Skrtel and Agger were that poor. What I saw was 3 or 4 Everton attackers countering against our two cb's on several occasions. This didnt directly lead to a goal, albeit a lot of massive chances, their positioning may have influenced the Everton attackers to shoot from poor angles, making the wrong passes etc.
when you lose the middle of the pitch...odd-man rush or heaps of pressure on your D-line is the result.

One thing we don't do well is reset the attack by holding the ball and/or pushing it back to the CB to switch things around. Not too often you will see us penetrate to the attacking 3rd then pull back to bring rest of squad into play. My only criticism of Suarez is he tries to break with the ball too often while outnumbered. Did it a few times this match, predictable outcome.

Quite possible Mirallas wasn't served a red due to Suarez's reputation...who knows what Dowd was thinking.

Notable: Could be that BR likes the quick counter, but that is an oxymoron to a typical possession-based strategy
 

slufsar

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2013
Messages
1,406
Mascot88 said:
So, and let me buckle myself in for this, are you saying that the reason why Allen missed the goal from six yards out is because he's had an injury?

And I'm not scapegoating Allen - I'm saying the 15m we spent on him looks very rash. Aside from the miss, he did OK, but there is no way he is going to get a place in a three man midfield ahead of Lucas, Gerrard or Henderson. For the foreseeable future he is a decent squad player. He isn't as good at those three, and he doesn't look like he has anything that will force him into the first team regularly.

Given that his delivery from set pieces has become more or less the best in league, then it's definately worth having him on the pitch for that alone. Any free kick in the final third and he makes us a threat - that's a weapon you can't ignore, even if it means carrying him to some degree (which is why Henderson's energy is essential) As a midfielder in open play his passing range is, again, the best in the country.

Part of Gerrard's problem is that he is playing within himself, trying to conserve his energy to last ninety minutes. The solution is to let him be Steven Gerrard but expecting about an hour from him and not ninety minutes. The solution is not to bin him off for a lad who has barely got a handful of decent performances, and doesn't seem to have much in the locker other than a neat passing game, and a reasonable ability to retain position.
Spending 15m on him was rash, I admitted that in several posts.
Lets not forget that this is a player who's had a rough time with the fans, he's suffered with an injury for a long time, came for a lot of money and pressure and walked straight into a very poor team (who can argue against our terrible situation last summer and until january). He's not had an easy time at the club. He's probably low on confidence and struggling mentally. Having had an injury for a long time will only contribute to that. It there is one player who deserves to be cut some slack, its Allen.

Jesus, he even put in awesome performances out of position at the beginning of last season. Lets not forget that. When his performances dropped, the fans got restless, but he was secretly injured.

"Neat passing and ball retention" is actually pretty useful. However, I think its unfair when people limit him to that, simply because we have seen so little of him. We've only seen him play as a CDM, on a consistent basis atleast. His role there was mainly to sit deep, win the ball and pass it safely. Most fans still screamed out for assists and goals, which he couldnt get because he had tactical discipline. However, he had won the ball more back than any other player in the league after several months of the campaign. Lucas usually gets plaudits for that. However, none of them are good enough at the role.

To be quite frankly, it shouldnt take much quality to break into this midfield anyway. Neat passing and ball retention would be enough. Sadly, our midfielders gets picked because of their name.
 

Billy Biskix

TIA Youth Team
Ad-free Member
Joined
Jul 23, 2011
Messages
3,076
REDSkins said:
Above all else, it was a great game. Was horrified when we went down 3-2. But happy we went for the win, even if we nearly lost it. We shouldn't accept draws, even away from home, so I'm hoping BR pushes the team hard in every match and not just against rivals.

Do you guys think Agger & Skrtel were really that poor? Agger could have been better overall, but Lukaku got nowhere in open play. Through halftime, I forgot Lukaku even existed. If Glen is the one marking Lukaku on set plays, what difference would Sakho have made? Sakho hasn't been flawless defending set pieces either. And us getting carved open at the end was not really a CB issue. Or am I overlooking some mistakes?

Flanagan had Deulofeu in his pocket! Got beat once or twice by Barkley, but Flanno should keep his place in the team next week. Great stuff.

Mignolet deserves free lunch for the week...
I thought they were jittery. Not at all composed, but the bigger problem for me was the amount of space Everton had in the midfield areas. Three times in the second half they created one on ones with Mignolet, once within ten seconds of us having a thrown in not far from their corner flag. That didn't come about as a result of our CBs being 'bullied' by Lukaku. It's down to a midfield that can't press or track runners. Allen and Henderson were ineffective. Gerrard was always going to be lethargic after playing in midweek. Lucas was very good for the first hour, but then he faded quickly. He doesn't seem to be able to play in games of that intensity for 90 minutes any more.

I am hoping that M'Vila wasn't just soaking up the derby atmosphere and he may have been checking out his soon-to-be team-mates. He may not be coming of course but he is at least the type of player we need to be looking for in January if we're going to carry on pushing for the top 4.
 

Mascot88

Bootroom Member
Admin
Joined
May 24, 2007
Messages
24,153
slufsar said:
We were lucky we had Mignolet.
This kind of thing is nonsense. Rodgers bought a goalkeeping upgrade that specialises in shot stopping. That's not lucky - it's planning.

Where do you draw the line with this line of argument? Are we also lucky we have Suarez? Sturridge? Gerrard? Henderson? Lucas?

When does it stop being luck and become good management?
 

redbj

hurry up, July 1st, let's get the show on the road
Joined
Jun 23, 2003
Messages
18,182
If he has to save one or two of those chances a game your point is valid, but if you are consistantly asking your keeper to pull out that many saves in a game it's not unfair to pay a bit of homage to him and say we are lucky we have him.

Reminds me of what I dislike about keeper arguments though, good keepers make great saves, great keepers organise so they don't have to.

I think it's safe to say its hard to theorise the derby or take too much from it, it's just a crazy game, it's a bucket list thing for me, to see a derby live.

Back to mignolet, sometimes I honestly feel he gets plaudits for flipping and flopping about when a decent bit of organization would have done the job just as well.....

But the slates clean for the derby, it's like a blank file, it's pointless trying to take too much out of it....just points.
 
Joined
Sep 3, 2008
Messages
7,362
redbj said:
If he has to save one or two of those chances a game your point is valid, but if you are consistantly asking your keeper to pull out that many saves in a game it's not unfair to pay a bit of homage to him and say we are lucky we have him.

Reminds me of what I dislike about keeper arguments though, good keepers make great saves, great keepers organise so they don't have to.

I think it's safe to say its hard to theorise the derby or take too much from it, it's just a crazy game, it's a bucket list thing for me, to see a derby live.

Back to mignolet, sometimes I honestly feel he gets plaudits for flipping and flopping about when a decent bit of organization would have done the job just as well.....

But the slates clean for the derby, it's like a blank file, it's pointless trying to take too much out of it....just points.
There is not exactly that much organisation he could have done to prevent those shots for which he had to make great saves to keep out. The defenders let him down multiple times by either giving the ball away cheaply or not doing enough to close down opposition players. If it wasn't for his top saves (and they really were high quality saves and not just him flopping about) the ball would have been in the back of our net a good 2 or 3 times more.

Here is a compilation of some of the saves he made during the match:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x17kj4a_simon-mignolet-vs-everton_creation?start=10
 

Mascot88

Bootroom Member
Admin
Joined
May 24, 2007
Messages
24,153
liverpool_singh said:
There is not exactly that much organisation he could have done to prevent those shots for which he had to make great saves to keep out. The defenders let him down multiple times by either giving the ball away cheaply or not doing enough to close down opposition players. If it wasn't for his top saves (and they really were high quality saves and not just him flopping about) the ball would have been in the back of our net a good 2 or 3 times more.

Here is a compilation of some of the saves he made during the match:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x17kj4a_simon-mignolet-vs-everton_creation?start=10
I think a fair bit of this ’flopping, thing is the fact that he just look a bit ungainly flapping his arms and legs about, but it's that kind of thing that Schmeical was brilliant at - flying out waving his arms and legs, confusing the fuck out of the striker and getting anything on the ball.

While we're on the subject on Mignolet, does anyone think it's a coincidence that we're set up to allow a lot of shots on goal, at the same time as we've bombed out a player who, at first glance, should be an ideal fit for Rodgers in favour of a master shot stopper? I don't.
 

redbj

hurry up, July 1st, let's get the show on the road
Joined
Jun 23, 2003
Messages
18,182
liverpool_singh said:
There is not exactly that much organisation he could have done to prevent those shots for which he had to make great saves to keep out. The defenders let him down multiple times by either giving the ball away cheaply or not doing enough to close down opposition players. If it wasn't for his top saves (and they really were high quality saves and not just him flopping about) the ball would have been in the back of our net a good 2 or 3 times more.

Here is a compilation of some of the saves he made during the match:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x17kj4a_simon-mignolet-vs-everton_creation?start=10
A) the Derbys a one off and I've already suggested you can ale nothing from it apart from points.

B) "there's not a lot of organizing he could do" and "defenders not closing down the oppo players" is a direct contradiction. I admit that he ant physically force skrtel to advance on Lukaka etc etc, but it's his job to ensure it does not happen again. I have started to see it slowly come into his game, but he's still no where near as intimidating, when he makes a save he just picks himself up and gets on with it....when a truly great keeper has to make a save, he acts as though it's an afront on him personally, he goes fucking bananas.

Anyhow, as suggested, he's certainly warming to the task.


Mascot, yep, I think you'll find it is a coincidence. Pepe wanted out, Rodgers got the best keeper he could get his hands on, it just so happens his strengths are different than peps, and they standout when called upon.
 

slufsar

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2013
Messages
1,406
Mascot88 said:
This kind of thing is nonsense. Rodgers bought a goalkeeping upgrade that specialises in shot stopping. That's not lucky - it's planning.

Where do you draw the line with this line of argument? Are we also lucky we have Suarez? Sturridge? Gerrard? Henderson? Lucas?

When does it stop being luck and become good management?
Pretty sure you misunderstood, which is understandable as it was poorly phrased by me. My point was just that we shouldnt rely on our GK having a blinder every game. We conceded 3 goals and still our GK was head and shoulder above the rest. That should be a worry
 

Mascot88

Bootroom Member
Admin
Joined
May 24, 2007
Messages
24,153
redbj said:
Mascot, yep, I think you'll find it is a coincidence. Pepe wanted out, Rodgers got the best keeper he could get his hands on, it just so happens his strengths are different than peps, and they standout when called upon.
I'm not sure.

The common wisdom prior to signing Mignolet was that Rodgers likes his keepers to play with their feet and have excellent distribution.

So, of all the keepers we could have signed, we sign one that is not particularly good with his feet and has poor distribution.

Something about the signing of Mignolet says there has been a change in emphasis. I think it's too simple to say that Mignolet was the best keeper we could get, and he happens to be a good stopper so that's what he does. Rodgers would have gone into the market looking for a keeper to suit the way he wants a keeper to play.

The way we are set up means that teams will be able to get at us, and where we play the full backs means that teams will be able to get round the back of us.

I think Rodger has looked at the chances we concede and thought 'fuck this I need a shot stopper.

I might be overthinking this, but I think it's no coincidence that the number of chances we concede has rocketed at the same as we've signed a keeper who specialises in stopping them.
 

Semmy

tho your dreams be tossed and blown
Ad-free Member
Joined
Sep 2, 2013
Messages
9,040
The whole debate on set pieces (in particular, corners) looks to me like keepers are being pinned in by the offense and dont have the freedom of movement anymore.

when was the last time you saw a keeper punch out a corner? Been a while for me, anyways. Delivery into the box has gotten more accurate (look who is taking them) and ball flight is being kept away from an area the keeper can reach it

not terribly surprised the goal count from set pieces has increased
 

Claymenza

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 21, 2013
Messages
1,844
redbj said:
A) the Derbys a one off and I've already suggested you can ale nothing from it apart from points.

B) "there's not a lot of organizing he could do" and "defenders not closing down the oppo players" is a direct contradiction. I admit that he ant physically force skrtel to advance on Lukaka etc etc, but it's his job to ensure it does not happen again. I have started to see it slowly come into his game, but he's still no where near as intimidating, when he makes a save he just picks himself up and gets on with it....when a truly great keeper has to make a save, he acts as though it's an afront on him personally, he goes fucking bananas.

Anyhow, as suggested, he's certainly warming to the task.


Mascot, yep, I think you'll find it is a coincidence. Pepe wanted out, Rodgers got the best keeper he could get his hands on, it just so happens his strengths are different than peps, and they standout when called upon.
Mignolet is a shot stopper who gets on with it because he knows he will take time before getting the grips with an unorganized defense. Going bananas because the defense performed poorly is also normal, but it is important to have the leadership to keep your composure when the defense failed. If having leadership to organize the defense is what you want, then it's a big ask for mignolet who just came into this new setup.

Reina's clean sheet record was mainly because the defense was so organized under rafa. It's no coincidence that his form dipped afterwards. His other strength was penalties, although I don't remember him saving one after Cardiff. As for his improved distribution, that was a result of carra/skrtel being less able on the ball and reliant on passing back to the keeper.

To me, reina loses confidence when the defense fails while mignolet raises his game. A great shot stopper does that, and in turn great defenders such as glen Johnson should feel ashamed that it comes down to this. I can't believe the argument has leaned towards how the keeper would punch the ball out of a corner, when our defenders were clearly second best in an aerial duel.