It was indeed Coutinho's foul that resulted in the free kick for the first. Advantage was played and it was brought back when Lucas made a successful tackle moments later.Mascot88 said:Judging from where the free kick was taken, it was the earlier one by Coutinho that was punished.
I think it did cost us three points. Would have been 3-1 up at that point. It was a much easier chance than Suarez header. Moreover, I think people are upset with Allen's general contribution as well.rab said:Lot of stick for Allen for that miss and yes it was a bad one. However Suarez missed an equally good chance with a header he put straight at Howard.
One is getting hammered for failing to score, the other isn't getting a mention. Yes Suarez contributed more to the result, yes he's an infinitely better player but one missed chance didn't cost us three points.
Was it? He's going to cause a huge amount of damage to Chelsea's rivals from where he is.Clive said:Also it's worth reflecting on Everton. They've done very well under Martinez, and in Lukaku, have a striker whose unplayable on his day. He was a real handful and huge mistake by Chelsea sending him on loan again. Could be a star in the World Cup.
We can keep such a player because he's only had one game from start, not 12. WHich means we really cant judge him yet. A player alone cant keep possession and set tempo of the game anyway, and if that was his job he would've played where Gerrard played, not infront of him. Gerrard is in the position to do that, and he fails game after game.lfc.eddie said:But we are more than willing to keep a player in the team that suppose to keep possession and set the tempo of the game in the game yesterday, but failed to do so? A player that was clear on goal, can't score and we say -"that's alright, it's not his job" and move on, we can keep such player because we are just happy to slate the old?
But that he cost 15m and can't hold down a place in the first team, gives the debate merit.slufsar said:We can keep such a player because he's only had one game from start, not 12. WHich means we really cant judge him yet. A player alone cant keep possession and set tempo of the game anyway, and if that was his job he would've played where Gerrard played, not infront of him. Gerrard is in the position to do that, and he fails game after game.Look, you're probably gonna underminde the debate with more sarcasm like "oh, so allen is the best player in the world, but yet he cant score a 5 yard sitter" or whatever. Not saying Allen is the best player in the world, or that he even should be a regular for us long term. I dont think he's that good. However, I think scapegoating of him is extremely harsh especially considering the performances of our other midfielders.He's become a popular scapegoat, and I always stick up for them, because most of the criticism are irrational.
That's a pretty good assessment of events at the game. I do disagree with the conclusion on Johnson. He had an off-day, and a really bad one for that matter. But to conclude that Toure should be ahead of him at RB is IMO not warranted. CB selection for the game was a bad mistake on Rodgers' behalf, especially in light of the blinder Sakho had midweek and the history between our two starters and Lukaku. I do have to say that the selection of Flanagan was a stroke of genius though. You've said pretty much everything that needed to be said about the rest except Coutinho.NZred said:I'm not sure what to take from this game. You can't really base these Derby matches on anything. Performance, form etc because they are such one off games.
However, I will try to dissect it a little bit.
Firstly, Mignolet. Is there a better shot stopper in the world at present? He pulls off some remarkable saves, especially one on one saves that he has to right to be making. Stays tall, spreads himself. Absolutely perfect positioning too.
Our backline. Just what in the mother fuck is going on? Johnson was terrible, caught out of position and just seemed...half arsed. Skittles and Agger, why can these two just not work together? Given their years at the club and you would have to assume NUMEROUS trainings together, you would think they had a pretty good understanding with one another. Amazingly it's the complete opposite. Neither seems to trust the other. I love Agger but recently I have begun to think he is the problem rather then Skittles? Without him there, Skittles is an absolute beast. Is our best back 4 Toure at RB, Skittles and Sakho in the middle and Enrique at LB? given our early season defence, it would seem so. Can't forget young Flanagan. What an immense game, was really worried with him early on, got beaten a little easily in the first 10 minutes, but after that he was an absolute tackling machine.
Lucas. I slag him as much as anyone. I thought he was pretty bloody good with his covering tackles, tracked back a lot and got in some good blocks on crosses. Made some vital tackles around the 18 yard box. HOWEVER, his constant giving away of stupid fouls does my fkcing block in.
Allen. Big fan of his, but fuck me, I won't be sad never to see him play for us again after that Miss. Made even worse by the fact Suarez was completely alone right next to him.
Gerrard. Quiet, looked absolutely knackered to be honest.
Henderson. Didn't really do much, but didn't really do much wrong either.
Suarez. Played well up front considering. He looked a little jaded at times though. Think he thrives with DS next to him.
All in all, offered me a draw before hand, I would have taken it. However given we were up 2-1 with a glorious chance to make it 3-1, I am quite gutted to only get a point. Of course the flip side is, to then be 3-2 DOWN and snatch it at the end, could be seen as a positive for not letting our heads drop.
So, a good result, or bad? Bit of both IMO.
Johnson and Toure was posed more as question. Given that our attack is better with Johnson but our defence weaker and the opposite holds true wheN Toure plays.pottymonster said:You can't take Johnson out of the side when he's healthy. Remember when he was out and we looked dead going forward? He's all the width we're going to get on that right side. Without him the wing is too isolated. Toure won't be bombing forward to help in that regard.
It's one game. Watch as we hopefully look good in our next three and no one will be questioning Johnson anymore. It'll be like the 'is Enrique the weak link' thread. Waaaaaaaaay too premature.
I was surprised not to see Sakho also but my guess would be that Skrtel and Agger have more experience over the past few years with this merseyside derby.grooveshark said:I thought the formation was spot on, what was wierd was no Sakho and no Toure when faced with a physical, mobile striker like Lukaku.
Dont get the reasoning behind all this talk of him being tired, this team isnt in Europe, and he hasnt started all games either.
Guess you learn and move on.
Really shouldnt have mattered, Lukaku has a history of scoring against Agger and Skrtel and they both have a history of not being able to deal with his physical nature.canucky008 said:I was surprised not to see Sakho also but my guess would be that Skrtel and Agger have more experience over the past few years with this merseyside derby.
Allen, what were you doing?
Not even close to Hendersons fault. Skrtel should be winning the first header but once again fails too. You can see Skrtel is the man picking up Barkley as he's shoving him, to no great effect, before the ball gets played in. However he fails to impose himself on Barkley and fails to win the first header.jerusalemred said:the first equaliser was actually henderson's fault because baines freekick wasn't a dangerous fast high ball but reachable height. Henderson always have this habit of pretending to fight for the ball and last minute just shy away.
I am getting pissed with his play acting, and all that energry is just for show. What matters is the commitment to go 50/50, tackle hard and be creative. he just plays it safe because he is afraid of getting injured.
If henderson had the balls to win the header which he clearly could have easily, barkeley wouldn't have headed it down to that cunt mirrales which is harder for gerrard to intercept as that was too fast.
The third goal conceded was however the fault of rodgers as how did the 2 CB not marking or anywhere near lukaku is atrocious. questions need to be asked about our marking system as that was a cheap give away.
If not for mignolet we would have been shamed.
OUr attackers did well and always believed in sturridge killer instinct. time to get rid of henderson as he couldnt carry or even contain the midfield once allen and lucas left the field. he is a squad and impact player because he doesn't tackle or intercept balls. he just pretend to harry and block at a distance. not good enough.
oh and fuck off that cheating cunt ref. his worried face before showing mirrales the yellow showed he knew he was cheating.
And that Suarez header would have put us 3-2 up with ten minutes to play.Red Tiger said:I think it did cost us three points. Would have been 3-1 up at that point. It was a much easier chance than Suarez header. Moreover, I think people are upset with Allen's general contribution as well.
I agree that Refs need help. Not sure about giving each team three challenges though - all it needs is the fourth official watching a delayed feed or replay. With the Miralles challenge, I'd seen two replays and concluded it was a stonewall red card before Dowd had even put his hand in his pocket. There's no excuse for not giving Referees the benefit or a second opinion based on replays.jabu said:i think that watching the games last night and the derby on saturday, it might be time for introduction of video review. weather its done american style giving each team two or three reviews per game or per half is debatable. but there is way too much at stake to leave to human error. The money involved in football now being the difference between ability to compete and possible relegation. Top four has become extremely important not just from a football point of view but as the bbc article stated last week, from a financial point of view as well. The pressure is getting to the referees and they are making more and more errors because of this. everton should have gone down to 10 and united should have gone down to ten men as well ( remains to be seen if rooney is banned for his off the ball incident ala suarez, but i doubt it). big decisions needed to be made and the officials bottled them and have been bottling them the last few seasons.... they need help!!
It's time football took a leaf out of rugby's book. It takes a couple of minutes to go to a video ref and see whether there's a reason a try can or can't be awarded. They can check for obstructions, forward passes, being in touch and the grounding of the ball all of which are things that sometimes referees and linesmen either physically can't see or can't be sure of due to the speed and number of people involved in the game. I see no reason why football can't do the same. It has not compromised referees authority on the pitch, if anything it has enhanced it as players now know the referee is more likely to get big decisions right because he has help.Mascot88 said:I agree that Refs need help. Not sure about giving each team three challenges though - all it needs is the fourth official watching a delayed feed or replay. With the Miralles challenge, I'd seen two replays and concluded it was a stonewall red card before Dowd had even put his hand in his pocket. There's no excuse for not giving Referees the benefit or a second opinion based on replays.
You could be right.... Man Utd managed by Moyes, Everton was Moyes' old team. The man could be confused.Joe90 said:I don't like slagging refs, but maybe Phil Dowd thought that we were playing Manchester United?
You actually come up with the best solution.... A delayed feed watched by a fourth official would work wonders... very good suggestionMascot88 said:I agree that Refs need help. Not sure about giving each team three challenges though - all it needs is the fourth official watching a delayed feed or replay. With the Miralles challenge, I'd seen two replays and concluded it was a stonewall red card before Dowd had even put his hand in his pocket. There's no excuse for not giving Referees the benefit or a second opinion based on replays.
The other thing that annoys me about referees is that they constantly apply context to their decisions instead of just applying the laws of the games. That tackle would be red card in most games. But Dowd has the Merseyside derby in mind, is willing to let a lot go. You also see it in the Tyne and Wear derby. A red card tackle should be a red card tackle regardless of the game it takes place in.
That's something they do in France since several years, and it has done wonders to both improve the refereeing standard, and the tolerance towards refs from football fans. Fully agree with the rest of your post. It's incredible to see the contrast in behaviour between rugby and football. That's largely due to refs having a higher authority / making less errors.rab said:(...)
I'd also like to see them copy rugby in mic-ing the refs up so the explanation given to the players can also be heard by tv viewers and potentially the crowd with radio receivers. Firstly it would let the supporters know more about why the ref has decided to make his decision and gives some instant justification as to why he's blown his whistle. Secondly it would force the players to start respecting the referee more as verbal abuse could be as it would be clearly audible.
If rugby can do it there's no reason football can't aside from the fact they don't want to. We'll continue to see horror challenges and violence not be fully punished and referees get decisions wrong and abused by players throughout the game.
Yup, the fourth official is already there, it doesn't need much change to implement this.Mascot88 said:I agree that Refs need help. Not sure about giving each team three challenges though - all it needs is the fourth official watching a delayed feed or replay. With the Miralles challenge, I'd seen two replays and concluded it was a stonewall red card before Dowd had even put his hand in his pocket. There's no excuse for not giving Referees the benefit or a second opinion based on replays.