Post Match: Everton 3-3 Liverpool

rab

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Hope in your heart said:
That's something they do in France since several years, and it has done wonders to both improve the refereeing standard, and the tolerance towards refs from football fans. Fully agree with the rest of your post. It's incredible to see the contrast in behaviour between rugby and football. That's largely due to refs having a higher authority / making less errors.
Rugby, a game for thugs played by gentlemen. Football, a game for gentlemen played by thugs.

The whole respect for referees in rugby starts from a young age. I played quite a bit when I was younger and have seen teachers and coaches substitute kids that shouted at or gave the ref some back chat and it was fully supported by their parents. However at kids football games you've got parents verbally abusing the ref along with coaches and the kids. Instil that respect early on and insist on it at the highest level so kids don't imitate bad habits and the game would be a whole lot nicer.
 

icemanwan

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rab said:
Lot of stick for Allen for that miss and yes it was a bad one. However Suarez missed an equally good chance with a header he put straight at Howard.

One is getting hammered for failing to score, the other isn't getting a mention. Yes Suarez contributed more to the result, yes he's an infinitely better player but one missed chance didn't cost us three points.
The difference between the two is that Allen did not even hit the target with the goalmouth at his mercy, nowhere near, hence the hammering he is getting. Suarez at least has kept his header on target and if not for Howard's hands would have scored.

Had Allen scored we could have gone on and won but this is just speculation as he never did score.
 

captain chaos

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As exciting and great to watch when Lucas went off in exchange for a more attacking player we looked good going forward, but as soon as we lost the ball we missed Lucas, or someone in his role able to mop up - every break Everton had since the subs i thought they might score. Fair play for chasing the game and I'm glad we got the point, like alot have said tho, the midfield wasnt great (that goes for all the mids), and neither was the defence (Flanno except). good job Mignolet was playin great (would Reina have managed as well?)
 

rab

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icemanwan said:
The difference between the two is that Allen did not even hit the target with the goalmouth at his mercy, nowhere near, hence the hammering he is getting. Suarez at least has kept his header on target and if not for Howard's hands would have scored.

Had Allen scored we could have gone on and won but this is just speculation as he never did score.
There is no difference, both failed to score chances they should have buried.
 

Mascot88

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rab said:
There is no difference, both failed to score chances they should have buried.
Dunno Rab - the Suarez chance was much hard. I don't know how he can put it anywhere else.
 

ILLOK

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rab said:
There is no difference, both failed to score chances they should have buried.
That's the simple way to look at it. In reality Allen's chance was an absolute banker, you can't miss when the keeper is basically on the floor and has left half the goal gaping open.

Suarez could have done better but Allen's was undoubtedly much easier. I'd have been surprised if Mignolet missed that chance.
 

rab

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Mascot88 said:
Dunno Rab - the Suarez chance was much hard. I don't know how he can put it anywhere else.
Come on, it's a free header inside the six yard box that he puts straight at the keeper at a very comfortable height. It's as guilt edge a chance as Allen's. Of course that doesn't excuse Allen from missing what was a sitter either.

ILLOK said:
That's the simple way to look at it. In reality Allen's chance was an absolute banker, you can't miss when the keeper is basically on the floor and has left half the goal gaping open.

Suarez could have done better but Allen's was undoubtedly much easier. I'd have been surprised if Mignolet missed that chance.
Allen's is a tiny bit easier but Suarez is meant to score goals so you'd expect him to do better with a slightly more difficult chance wouldn't you say?

Just to clarify, I'm not blaming Suarez for missing the chance, sometimes that's the way it goes. But I also don't think it's fair to say Allen cost us three points by missing his chance which is what some people are suggesting. Both should have scored those chances and the game would have been different had either done so but it wouldn't have meant we'd have certainly won the game.
 

Quagmire81

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Tiny bit easier?! you are making yourself look foolish now rab, please stop try convincing people who understands the mechanism of football with such babble.
 

lfc.eddie

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A header is much easier to control than a one-on-one with a keeper already down on the ground for you to slot in with your preferred right foot? It is one thing to defend Allen's contribution in other parts of the game, it is another to say his chance is not easy for a professional footballer with ball on his favoured foot and an open goal. The ball landed right in front of him, and rolled at a speed he could definitely hit the target if he didn't bottle it. Suarez hits the target with his header, Allen missed the target with his right foot.
 

rab

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Quagmire81 said:
Tiny bit easier?! you are making yourself look foolish now rab, please stop try convincing people who understands the mechanism of football with such babble.
So a free header inside the six yard box is a tricky chance for a striker these days is it?

I'm not so sure you understand football that well yourself mate so I wouldn't go shouting your mouth off and insulting people. I mean aren't you the guy suggesting Henderson and Lucas are picked out of sympathy? A cracking understanding of the mechanics that is.

Hypothetically swap the chances for the two players. I'm betting if Allen misses that header there wouldn't be people making any excuses for him.
 

rab

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lfc.eddie said:
A header is much easier to control than a one-on-one with a keeper already down on the ground for you to slot in with your preferred right foot? It is one thing to defend Allen's contribution in other parts of the game, it is another to say his chance is not easy for a professional footballer with ball on his favoured foot and an open goal. The ball landed right in front of him, and rolled at a speed he could definitely hit the target if he didn't bottle it. Suarez hits the target with his header, Allen missed the target with his right foot.
Not what I said is it. Allen's chance is easier but it doesn't mean Suarez shouldn't also have scored with a free header from inside the six yard box.

One misses and people say it single handedly cost us the win, the other misses and people make excuses. Would people have the same understanding if Allen had missed the header? If Suarez misses the Allen chance does he get the blame for costing us three points? I have my doubts.

But to reiterate, both should have scored but neither miss is the sole reason for us missing out on the three points.
 

ILLOK

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Sorry but no, it isn't a tiny bit easier. Suarez was close in but had little of the goal to aim at due to the angle and Howard actually making himself big, Allen had time, space and a huge target to aim at.

Had Suarez missed that the reaction would have been the same. This "he isn't paid to score goals" nonsense I've seen being thrown around is a horrible excuse. It really was THAT easy.
 

rab

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ILLOK said:
Sorry but no, it isn't a tiny bit easier. Suarez was close in but had little of the goal to aim at due to the angle and Howard actually making himself big, Allen had time, space and a huge target to aim at.

Had Suarez missed that the reaction would have been the same. This "he isn't paid to score goals" nonsense I've seen being thrown around is a horrible excuse. It really was THAT easy.
How can you use the angle as an excuse. He's pretty much in line with the far post with space to head towards the near or far post. Howard isn't making himself big and he doesn't even need to save it, the ball hits him. He's unmarked, in the six yard box with plenty of time to watch the cross come over and he heads it straight at Howard. Anywhere else on target from that close in and we're 3-2 up.

It's quite obvious that the reaction wouldn't have been the same had the players missed the other one's chances. That is evident by the excuses or leniency being shown for Suarez and the detailed descriptions people give of why Allen's was so easy. And it was easy, no excuses and i'm not trying to make any for him. But to say he cost us two points is wrong. We had another guilt edge chance to take the lead late in the game that wasn't taken but no one is saying Suarez cost us three points.

I think it's also fair to suggest that you'd expect forwards to convert more difficult chances more regularly than other players, that's why you play them up front. Again though, it doesn't excuse the Allen miss but nor should we make excuses for Suarez missing an easy header and blame Allen for us dropping points.
 

Dublin_Kopite

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rab said:
How can you use the angle as an excuse.
In real life, you know when playing football with an actual ball, you can easily take into account such things as angles, ball height, ball speed, player motion and opposition positioning when trying to score. Maybe in FIFA when you are in direct line with the back post it is a guaranteed goal but this doesn't really translate onto a pitch every time.

There is no way you can compare the two misses (one by Allen, ball at his feet with time and space to put it past the keeper or the other Suarez running onto a ball fired across the box, trying to head it back towards the goal with a narrow angle) and suggest Suarez one was easier.
 

WrongIslander

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My question (and that is all it is) is the same as it was at the start, where was Toure or Sakho?

With Lukaku's obvious strength and aerial threat how could BOTH of the two strongest and best headers of the ball we have be on the bench?
 

rab

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Dublin_Kopite said:
In real life, you know when playing football with an actual ball, you can easily take into account such things as angles, ball height, ball speed, player motion and opposition positioning when trying to score. Maybe in FIFA when you are in direct line with the back post it is a guaranteed goal but this doesn't really translate onto a pitch every time.

There is no way you can compare the two misses (one by Allen, ball at his feet with time and space to put it past the keeper or the other Suarez running onto a ball fired across the box, trying to head it back towards the goal with a narrow angle) and suggest Suarez one was easier.
Don't play FIFA, Pro Evo or Football Manager. Also have never said the Suarez chance was easier than the Allen one. I did say both should have scored so you can't cite the Allen miss as the main reason for us not winning without accepting the Suarez chance was an easy one too and should have been scored.

Perhaps spend a little less time jumping to conclusions and writing nonsense about FIFA and little more time reading.
 

ILLOK

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I'm not going to bother arguing this for too much longer. Allen's chance is far easier than Suarez'. Not that Suarez shouldn't have done better, but Allen's was a complete banker. To miss from there smacks of him having no bottle at all, Suarez' was easily missed due to improper technique, Allen had a keeper on the floor and half a goal to aim at, it's inexplicable.

Everyone misses chances but he doesn't deserve to be offered a defence for that. I can't stress just how easy it was enough.
 

grooveshark

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Joe90 said:
I don't like slagging refs, but maybe Phil Dowd thought that we were playing Manchester United?
I have always thought that refs needed help, but that said, derbies just seem to be officiated differently from other games and challenges that should be striaght red cards often get a yellow.

For me, it looked like Mirallas was getting back at Suarez, this wasnt something done in the heat of the moment, it was something premeditated. It was disgusting, I could even argue that something like that deserves a longer ban just because it is career threatening.

That said, Suarez was no saint last year in the derby, he could have so easily broken Distin's ankle, and his challenge on Mirallas had the belgian sidelined for quite a bit of time.

Both were extremely wrong back then, and this weekend what happened was an atrocity, but it makes one realize just how easy a moment of folly can ruin a career. Hope lessons have been learnt on both camps.
 

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I agree that Allen's miss was staggering, it wasn't even a face palm moment, went beyond that....into a WTF just happened moment :huh: , i literally couldn't believe me eye's..., actually missed Suarez's header at the time (stream froze..) but heard the commentator saying all he had to do was head it down & it was in, after seeing the highlight's you can see that there was a slight angle, it was disappointing/frustrating & Suarez should really have done better, but it was not comparable to Allen's miss, that was something else, both chances were good one's, would have helped us win the game perhaps, we just have to be more clinical in front of goal, period.
 

Mascot88

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JoebloggsLFC said:
I agree that Allen's miss was staggering, it wasn't even a face palm moment, went beyond that....into a WTF just happened moment :huh: , i literally couldn't believe me eye's..., actually missed Suarez's header at the time (stream froze..) but heard the commentator saying all he had to do was head it down & it was in, after seeing the highlight's you can see that there was a slight angle, it was disappointing/frustrating & Suarez should really have done better, but it was not comparable to Allen's miss, that was something else, both chances were good one's, would have helped us win the game perhaps, we just have to be more clinical in front of goal, period.
He's leaning back as well, and the pace of the ball, the fact that Howard has time to set himself for the header, it's a much harder chance than Allen's.

Joe's miss is just horrible. One of those that you just can't excuse in anyway.
 

OOTer

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I think Suarez will be as pissed at his missed header as Allen will be with his effort. I'm sure both felt they should have scored.
 

kwala

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A half cut Sunday Pub player would have buried Allen's chance. He is lacking confidence. He badly needs to stay injury free and get a run of games in the side, but, I just can't see him getting it any time soon!
 

Semmy

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EA Sports lounge on cruise ship infuriated me by not showing the game. Too many 'Mericans on the boat wanting NFL on every single TV. Bullocks. Cannot wait to get home early tomorrow and watch the derby

Dying to see this infamous miss and guage if it was worse than mine 3 weeks ago ;)
 

slufsar

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Mascot88 said:
But that he cost 15m and can't hold down a place in the first team, gives the debate merit.

The very fact that he hasn't played much and therefore we can't judge him (if you like) is very worrying. A 15m quid player seemingly can't get into the first team after beg here for 18 months or so. We might struggle to get a comprehensive view of him as a player, but we can certainly form an opinion of his value as a big chunk of money. Don't forget this is supposedly Rodger's golden boy - the embodiment of his football ideals. For him to have started one game this season suggests all is not well here.

The miss yesterday - at 2-1 up - would have killed the game. He has two good options - to try and beat the keeper himself or square to Suarez for a tap in. He has to square it all fucking day, and it's exactly the reason why Suarez goes mental at him. But if he is going to back himself, then he has got to hit the target for where he was and completely clean through. Very suspect decision making, composure and confidence. It's fair to see that as a microcosm of his current situation. Fine - it isn't his job to score goals. So pass the ball to the lad who will do that and it's grand. You can't have it both ways.

Your criticism of Gerrard is really tiresome in the context of a game in which two of the goals came directly from his delivery, and Suarez could have had a second (and Gerrard a third assist) had he directed that header a bit better. Gerrard's set piece delivery is getting better and better with age, and while he looked sluggish at times on Saturday I think there are issues with how Rodgers and Steven are trying to manage his contribution. Instead of trying to play within himself for 90mins, picking and choosing his moments to get forward, I'd sooner see him go he'll for leather, play a bit further forward - but accept we're only going to get an hour out of him. Take him off on the hour mark and you probably get more from him in that hour that you do the whole 90 of Gerrard playing at 50%. And then Joe Allen and Alberto get a bit of game time too.
Are you deliberately forgetting that he's been injured for quite a while? Only got back a couple of weeks ago. He will have to regain match fitness and play himself into the team again.

I wouldnt use the price tag against him. Everyone knows that it was an incredibly inflated price, but its not his fault. Its not relevant in the discussion whether he deserves to start or not.
As for the the "Rodgers golden boy" stuff. That is entirely constructed by fans and used against him quite childishly.

I get that his decision making in that goal situation was horrible. No one can deny that. However, you have to consider that he's not up to his best because of an injury. It'll affect many aspects of his game. Lucas has been afforded this excuse many times, but Allen never gets excused anything because he's a scapegoat, simply put.

If my moaning about Gerrard is tiresome, then its more tiresome for me that I have to repeat it every week because people are refusing to see how terrible he is. Yeah, sure he had great set pieces, which contributed a lot, but so did Adam, and like Adam, he's looking totally out of place whenever he isnt making a cross or a set piece. (Mind and exaggeration with the Adam comparison, he will never be that awful).
You cant put a midfielder on the pitch just for his set pieces. Set pieces was a great contribution, but he also contributed to Everton outplaying us in most parts of the game by being horrific in midfield. He also lost his marker for the first Everton goal. Didnt he lose Dummett against Newcastle, failed to clear a ball off his line against Southampton because he couldnt use his left and also involved in us conceding against Palace. He might have 4 set piece assists for us this season, but he's been heavily involved in just as many set piece concedings.
 

bes

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Easily top 3 game ive ever seen. As a fan of football it was the most action packed 90 in a long time. As a LFC supporter bummed we didnt capitalize on some chances but we were lucky Everton didnt either. A point @ goodison is never a bad result. Next week Hull.

So nice to watch Suarez up top by himself. The best in England and arguably in the world.
 

slufsar

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Still bothers me how much better Everton played than us tho. Everything hinting towards them being a much better team than us. I hope and maybe think, that they're just better 11v11. They're more likely to drop points in easy games than us.
 

ILLOK

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slufsar said:
Still bothers me how much better Everton played than us tho. Everything hinting towards them being a much better team than us. I hope and maybe think, that they're just better 11v11. They're more likely to drop points in easy games than us.
The fact that they were at home and had their best 11 out and we didn't doesn't come into your thinking at all. You're such a miserable, negative bastard (no offence). Also you seemingly forget Gerrard played with painkilling injections a few days before the derby but use Allen's injury as an excuse for him, despite him now seemingly fully fit. Odd that. Suarez hadn't even been back for 2 days before playing that game as well. Essentially that means our 3 best players were either fatigued/injured or not even on the pitch.

Everton are not a better side than us, utter nonsense.
 

REDSkins

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Above all else, it was a great game. Was horrified when we went down 3-2. But happy we went for the win, even if we nearly lost it. We shouldn't accept draws, even away from home, so I'm hoping BR pushes the team hard in every match and not just against rivals.

Do you guys think Agger & Skrtel were really that poor? Agger could have been better overall, but Lukaku got nowhere in open play. Through halftime, I forgot Lukaku even existed. If Glen is the one marking Lukaku on set plays, what difference would Sakho have made? Sakho hasn't been flawless defending set pieces either. And us getting carved open at the end was not really a CB issue. Or am I overlooking some mistakes?

Flanagan had Deulofeu in his pocket! Got beat once or twice by Barkley, but Flanno should keep his place in the team next week. Great stuff.

Mignolet deserves free lunch for the week...
 

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slufsar said:
Are you deliberately forgetting that he's been injured for quite a while?
Only got back a couple of weeks ago. He will have to regain match fitness and play himself into the team again.I wouldnt use the price tag against him. Everyone knows that it was an incredibly inflated price, but its not his fault. Its not relevant in the discussion whether he deserves to start or not.As for the the "Rodgers golden boy" stuff. That is entirely constructed by fans and used against him quite childishly.I get that his decision making in that goal situation was horrible. No one can deny that. However, you have to consider that he's not up to his best because of an injury. It'll affect many aspects of his game. Lucas has been afforded this excuse many times, but Allen never gets excused anything because he's a scapegoat, simply put.
So, and let me buckle myself in for this, are you saying that the reason why Allen missed the goal from six yards out is because he's had an injury?

And I'm not scapegoating Allen - I'm saying the 15m we spent on him looks very rash. Aside from the miss, he did OK, but there is no way he is going to get a place in a three man midfield ahead of Lucas, Gerrard or Henderson. For the foreseeable future he is a decent squad player. He isn't as good at those three, and he doesn't look like he has anything that will force him into the first team regularly.

slufsar said:
If my moaning about Gerrard is tiresome, then its more tiresome for me that I have to repeat it every week because people are refusing to see how terrible he is. Yeah, sure he had great set pieces, which contributed a lot, but so did Adam, and like Adam, he's looking totally out of place whenever he isnt making a cross or a set piece. (Mind and exaggeration with the Adam comparison, he will never be that awful).You cant put a midfielder on the pitch just for his set pieces. Set pieces was a great contribution, but he also contributed to Everton outplaying us in most parts of the game by being horrific in midfield. He also lost his marker for the first Everton goal. Didnt he lose Dummett against Newcastle, failed to clear a ball off his line against Southampton because he couldnt use his left and also involved in us conceding against Palace. He might have 4 set piece assists for us this season, but he's been heavily involved in just as many set piece concedings.
Given that his delivery from set pieces has become more or less the best in league, then it's definately worth having him on the pitch for that alone. Any free kick in the final third and he makes us a threat - that's a weapon you can't ignore, even if it means carrying him to some degree (which is why Henderson's energy is essential) As a midfielder in open play his passing range is, again, the best in the country.

Part of Gerrard's problem is that he is playing within himself, trying to conserve his energy to last ninety minutes. The solution is to let him be Steven Gerrard but expecting about an hour from him and not ninety minutes. The solution is not to bin him off for a lad who has barely got a handful of decent performances, and doesn't seem to have much in the locker other than a neat passing game, and a reasonable ability to retain position.