Post Match: Huddersfield v Liverpool (EPL 20/10/2018 5.30pm)
- Thread starter Mascot88
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I didn't have the opportunity to watch this one, so can't comment on the performance, but a few things can be said about the result: winning one-nil, even though unconvincingly, is yet again a major stepping stone for us. Until last season, this would have been a game finishing 0-0, or even worse, finishing with a loss. How many times did this happen over the last decade, also during Klopp's first two seasons with us? Coming back from an international break, an away game at a hostile ground, against a team struggling in the table, everyone sees us as favourites, and we lose. It happened literally dozens of times, and to be honest, I was expecting something similar this time around. This kind of fixtures is brutal at any times, for any team.
Huddersfield might be near to the bottom of the table, but on many accounts, they are worth well more than their current position. And they fight for their lives, so that was never going to be a walk in the park for our lads.
And yet, we win again. Something has changed in the way our lads approach these games mentally, and also tactically. They are able to hold out on to a slender lead from a moment of brilliance (magnificent goal by the way: a pinpoint pass from Gomez to Shaqiri, then that brilliant first touch and immediate turn and pass towards Salah, without even looking at him, and finally that great run from Salah and the accuracy of the shot... wonderful...), and bring the points home.
Of course our lads won't go through the whole season like that, holding on to a result by their fingernails. At some point, they'll hit a better moment, especially our forwards. That moment might not be very far away in time, we'll see. As Klopp said in the post-match conference, there is still a lot of work to do. In the meantime, this is another win which keeps us in a great position. Fingers crossed that the performances will soon match the good results!
Huddersfield might be near to the bottom of the table, but on many accounts, they are worth well more than their current position. And they fight for their lives, so that was never going to be a walk in the park for our lads.
And yet, we win again. Something has changed in the way our lads approach these games mentally, and also tactically. They are able to hold out on to a slender lead from a moment of brilliance (magnificent goal by the way: a pinpoint pass from Gomez to Shaqiri, then that brilliant first touch and immediate turn and pass towards Salah, without even looking at him, and finally that great run from Salah and the accuracy of the shot... wonderful...), and bring the points home.
Of course our lads won't go through the whole season like that, holding on to a result by their fingernails. At some point, they'll hit a better moment, especially our forwards. That moment might not be very far away in time, we'll see. As Klopp said in the post-match conference, there is still a lot of work to do. In the meantime, this is another win which keeps us in a great position. Fingers crossed that the performances will soon match the good results!
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I am talking about when we hit them on the break about 5 times and just had to execute a simple final pass to set up a clear cut chance. That doesn't require a creative player. It just requires someone that can pass the ball. Unfortunately, Salah (mostly) and on one occassion Firmino failed to make that pass. You need creative players to unlock the defense when they put 10 men behind the ball (not what Huddersfield did). So, no. It wasn't down to a lack of creativity.
Basically 'gengenpress doesn't work in England. Well that's my take.
It's rare to see a English club playing the false rythm stuff seen in Germany which lends well to 'gengenpressing'.
Unfortunately we still leave our defense without cover however our defenders and goalkeeper are much better than before.
It's rare to see a English club playing the false rythm stuff seen in Germany which lends well to 'gengenpressing'.
Unfortunately we still leave our defense without cover however our defenders and goalkeeper are much better than before.
We have a lot of problems up front and you're correct, imo, little of it has to do with creativity.
The one time we played simple direct footy we scored. 2 passes and a shot. The rest of the time we frustrated ourselves looking and not finding that which does not exist. The opposition defence had nothing to do.
The one time we played simple direct footy we scored. 2 passes and a shot. The rest of the time we frustrated ourselves looking and not finding that which does not exist. The opposition defence had nothing to do.
The thing is though that the attack might not be ferocious (yet) like it was last season but they are still doing enough to win the games for us (granted with a fantastic defense making one goal enough many times). So, it we might be over-reacting. Certainly calling 23/27 points a slow start is ridiculous and we have played both City and Chelsea already.
needed to digest that game, because it was so frustrating. Our passing has dipped and I wonder if it's because our lads are too nice. We don't seem to have anyone in the team that will 'roar' when passes are misplaced or too soft. I was expecting us to score at least more than one goal, but too many lads were on 'twinkle-toe' mode, and it affected our confident play. A couple of comments about the referee not booking any of their players, probably because they showed a bit more aggression. Our lads got picked on because they just accept what is given, without questioning the refs decisions. Somebody needs to grow some vocal chords to use them during games and especially on some refs.
I certainly don’t think it lends itself to the high, relentless physical demands of the EPL.
I think we could see more and more ‘fake pressing’ where we ‘shepherd’ opposition players into areas of play that suit us without fully committing. That way we can take a breather and pace ourselves better over the course of a match and a whole season. It would help us manage games even more effectively and efficiently.
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There's not much point playing a high press against the 90% of teams who just launch it over your head. We've used the high press sparingly for quite a long time now, reserving it for teams who play out from the back or using it at specific times in games, usually just after we've scored and when teams are vulnerable. That's why we had a lot of spells where we'd score goals in batches. Takes a lot out of the players though so you need to make those spells count.
I really don't think we need to change tactics. In fact I'd argue that it's the current tactics that are getting us points even though we're not playing well. The only game where I've felt we've been tactically deficient was Napoli because Ancelotti presented JK with a problem and he did nothing about it. Just hoped we could scrape through.
Much of the time last season and this we've relied on the speed and accuracy of our counter-attacking and that is just not happening at the moment. This game was a good case in point. Huddersfield were spent with 15 to go and that was the time to put them to the sword but for whatever reason Firmino, Salah, Sturridge and Shaqiri either chose the wrong option or couldn't find the target. The difference between a routine victory and a nervy win. To me this is less about tactics and more about individuals being slightly off their game.
I really don't think we need to change tactics. In fact I'd argue that it's the current tactics that are getting us points even though we're not playing well. The only game where I've felt we've been tactically deficient was Napoli because Ancelotti presented JK with a problem and he did nothing about it. Just hoped we could scrape through.
Much of the time last season and this we've relied on the speed and accuracy of our counter-attacking and that is just not happening at the moment. This game was a good case in point. Huddersfield were spent with 15 to go and that was the time to put them to the sword but for whatever reason Firmino, Salah, Sturridge and Shaqiri either chose the wrong option or couldn't find the target. The difference between a routine victory and a nervy win. To me this is less about tactics and more about individuals being slightly off their game.
Yep happy for you to call that out, what is that? One mistake since he's joined? Hasn't the defence looked and felt more solid since he's joined, I think I can forgive him that once.
Hang on, is this the game that Lovren almost gave away a penalty (another ref would have given it!) and made another mistake?
I honestly don't want to harp on about his mistakes, but if he's gonna make them then people are well within their rights to ask questions about his aptitude, as I'm sure people would have done with VVD had Mahrez scored the penalty. If we don't, we're just accepting that he's below level and it's OK.
Hang on, is this the game that Lovren almost gave away a penalty (another ref would have given it!) and made another mistake?
I honestly don't want to harp on about his mistakes, but if he's gonna make them then people are well within their rights to ask questions about his aptitude, as I'm sure people would have done with VVD had Mahrez scored the penalty. If we don't, we're just accepting that he's below level and it's OK.
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He isnt saying VVD needs to be called out or criticised mercilessly. He is saying that a mistake Lovren is being criticised for was actually VVD's.
The point he and a few others have made is that pre-existing perceptions are guiding many of these criticisms not a fair evaluation of the actual situations. Something you actually demonstrate here. Lovren is criticized for "mistakes" that we were not punished for, yet your position on VVD is to only think it worth of criticism had Mahrez scored.
The point he and a few others have made is that pre-existing perceptions are guiding many of these criticisms not a fair evaluation of the actual situations. Something you actually demonstrate here. Lovren is criticized for "mistakes" that we were not punished for, yet your position on VVD is to only think it worth of criticism had Mahrez scored.
VvD has made a number of mistakes. He made two obvious ones against Huddersfield. He’s human. So is Lovren. If Lovren had made those same mistakes there would have been howls of derision on here.
As ILLOK points out Lovren has played well for a sustained period. He was the best defender on the pitch in both of the ECL matches against Man City last season. And as Limiescouse points out Lovren has been singled out for criticism purely because it is him.
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We conceded three goals in nine matches so far.
That amount of goals we conceded after the first game of last season, when I remember correct it was a 3-3 draw at Watford.
So it seems the defensive problems are sorted. Now we have to improve our department of attack if we want to be serious title contenders.
I for one am confident that will happen in the near future.
Our free-flying front three can’t have forgotten how to score.
That amount of goals we conceded after the first game of last season, when I remember correct it was a 3-3 draw at Watford.
So it seems the defensive problems are sorted. Now we have to improve our department of attack if we want to be serious title contenders.
I for one am confident that will happen in the near future.
Our free-flying front three can’t have forgotten how to score.
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The thing is though it's just not enjoyable to watch. I want entertainment! 
There are some posters on here who want enjoyable football and entertainment, some want a clean sheet and some are only interested in a win, even an ugly one.
What I can’t evaluate is the percentage of that.
What I know for sure is all of us want entertainment and comfortable wins.
One of the significant differences between where we were in March versus now is that we are struggling with those pressing opportunities. In one sense, that is fairly normal as a team comes together, although with the number of remaining personnel I would have expected it to be more quick. Firmino's uneven start to the season is probably a significant reason for that, he seems to be the one who makes the initial read most of the time.
Against Huddersfield, there were several points where it looked like the idea was to try it, and it just did not start evenly. Huddersfield aren't superbly talented, but they are well-drilled with the ball, and it did not take much for them to simply pass out of the press if there was no long ball available, and we very quickly reverted to the more traditional line-style defence.
I suspect one of the reasons Fabinho is not getting starts is that he in particular seems to be really second-guessing himself about his defensive responsibilities. His effort is there, you just see him take a few steps toward one player, then realize he needs to switch.
Against Huddersfield, there were several points where it looked like the idea was to try it, and it just did not start evenly. Huddersfield aren't superbly talented, but they are well-drilled with the ball, and it did not take much for them to simply pass out of the press if there was no long ball available, and we very quickly reverted to the more traditional line-style defence.
I suspect one of the reasons Fabinho is not getting starts is that he in particular seems to be really second-guessing himself about his defensive responsibilities. His effort is there, you just see him take a few steps toward one player, then realize he needs to switch.
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It's a disconcerting way to play for those who have never done it. Committing to pressing a player, especially one who doesnt yet have the ball but is an obvious option for the guy who does, goes against everything you have been taught if you are a DM who has specialized in finding dangerous space and plugging that hole.
It often goes through phases:
1) Too passive and so your guy becomes the outlet for them to play through
2) Eventually you learn to press the right guy, but your still too timid to go late, so now not only is your guy able to be the outlet, but he then hurts you in the space you eventually vacated.
3) You double down on being passive.
It often goes through phases:
1) Too passive and so your guy becomes the outlet for them to play through
2) Eventually you learn to press the right guy, but your still too timid to go late, so now not only is your guy able to be the outlet, but he then hurts you in the space you eventually vacated.
3) You double down on being passive.
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It's not hard to see what the problem up front for is just two simple things. Decision making and weight of a pass. We are continually getting into good positions but unlike last season the wrong pass or the weight of the pass is to weak or to heavy. For me Mo and Firmino are the biggest culprits. They don't just become poor players over night and with a bit more time in training and a bit of patience they will come through this poor spell.