Post match: LFC 2-3 Udinese

TheKaiser

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Most of what I wanted to say has been said. We were very good in the first half after a slow start, but we again started slowly in the second half and it cost us the lead.
When I was watching Gerrard about to come on, I prayed it wasn't for Henderson as he provided great balance with Allen for most of the match, with both moving, tracking and showing the ball and generally taking care of the ball.

Before long, here came Captain Fantastic trying to play another heads down one-two in the midfield which led to a goal as it has already several times this season. Gerrard was influential once we were down by 2, but I really can't fathom why that sub was made. After a poor start to the half, we'd wrested back control and were getting on top of them again. Within ten minutes we'd conceded fwo. It's not purely Gerrard's fault that we're so susceptible on the counter because it's well-established that Allen just can't track runners like Lucas. He and Henderson were covering each other well enough, but Gerrard unbalanced the dynamic entirely.

Like others have said, I would have brought on Sahin if we wanted to have initiative and control. If we had to bring Gerrard on, it should have been for Shelvey or Assaidi/Downing. Hindsight's a wonderful thing, but I think many of us could have anticipated what happened with this switch.

Still, I think we continued much of our progression today and we lost because of lapses in needed control and concentration, not because of a flaw in our style. It's a fatal flaw in one of our best player's games, not in the squad's.

Luis has 8 in 9 and looks exceedingly dangerous. Should easily score 20 for us this season, we just need goals from other forward players, since we're getting plenty from midfield. There continue to be many positives- we can't expect not to have bad results as we continue to learn and develop.
 

Dodgy

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Every player out there played with heart and hunger and hard work and I'll take that any day.

Obviously upset with the outcome but I have to say I thoroughly enjoyed that. If we had nicked it in the end it would have been a classic; European match on a Rainy English night, throwing Suarez and Stevie on for the win, upcoming young stars; great stuff.

Should have been a straight red for that tackle on Downing.

Hope we're not too knackered for Stoke.

Future's Bright.
 

RichLFC

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Defensive coaching needs some serious work

we look bad there whichever back 4 we play. In fact, shiyiyettty

Also while Udinese are an ok team, they are more a Everton or newcastle type team in their own league. One you may end up losing to away but you dont want to be losing to on your own ground. They arent Juventus or Inter or even Napoli

not so fussed about the EL on its own but am fussed about momentum, this team needs to learn how to go on consecutive winning streaks, 2 is the best they have managed in about 3 years. Thats fucking shit for Liverpool, it really is. Our losing steaks have been longer than winning ones

a win at the weekend may serve to put this one in the out tray but have no confidence in our defending. As I said earlier on in the thread, it reminds me a bit of the type of helter skelter footy we played under Evans, but we dont have a Fowler or Owen in the team. Though Suarez is doing well goals wise this season, Borini isnt, he looks lightweight and though his movement is good, his pace is not going to get him away from defenders when on the ball

Downing wasnt as awful as he has been, very good cross for Shelvey's first goal, but like the rest, provided next to zero in the second half when things got difficult. Trouble is with this team, they dont do adversity very well, they are weak minded when it comes down to it. Its a bit betetr when Sterling and Suso are there but it seems still an ingrained problem which managers cant seem to solve very easily here
 

TheKaiser

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Trouble is with this team, they dont do adversity very well, they are weak minded when it comes down to it. Its a bit betetr when Sterling and Suso are there but it seems still an ingrained problem which managers cant seem to solve very easily here
I don't know, this team with the exception of a few has come back twice in their last three games so I don't think we have that problem as much anymore. We had some lapses in concentration that led to the goals, but unlike last year, we immediately came back into the game and threatened pretty much constantly for the last 20 minutes. Some people seem to be analyzing the squad based on the result not the performance, which was mostly very good.
 

sportbilly1966

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I just rewatched the part of the game after Suarez and Gerrard came on, and I don't think the third goal was Gerrard's fault alone - it was both his and Shelvey's. The idea after Gerrard came on was to make it two central attacking midfielders plus Allen, but this didn't mean they had no defensive duties whatsoever. If you watch replays of the goal, after Gerrard loses possession, both Gerrard and Shelvey decide to slowly meander back. If either one of them had put in that effort to cover that ground, he would've spotted the late runner. I think Gerrard realized this after the goal, because he evidently dropped a bit deeper.
The goal started from Gerrards misplaced pass, every player makes a bad pass, but what happened next is unforgivable he just walked!!!! ..... contrast this to a really bad square pass in midfield from Joe Allen, his response was to sprint back and then win the ball back, the same happened in the 1st Half with Hendo he gave a bad pass but then worked hard to get back and get goal side.

All players make bad passes, it how you respond to this that matters, that is what Brendan has to instill in to the players. Every time that we have switched off, which has normally been one player has cost us a lot of goals this season, we need to be mentally stronger and as Brendan has said we need each player to do the dirty work
 

Red Armada

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78% possession and 94% pass accuracy first half too (against 72% and 88% pass accuracy second half) ...and BR simply sounded incredibly frustrated at final whistle in his post-match interview aka "We became lazy" and "We (simply) can't have to (continue to need to) score three, four or five goals to win a game".

Just why (and how) we are conceeding an average of 2 goals a game simply baffles me
Because on top of everything else every team that we come across suddenly turns into Barcelona and Real Madrid when it comes to converting their chances. What was it, 4 attempts on target by Udinese and 3 goals scored ?
 

TheKaiser

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Because on top of everything else every team that we come across suddenly turns into Barcelona and Real Madrid when it comes to converting their chances. What was it, 4 attempts on target by Udinese and 3 goals scored ?
All down to Lucas for me. A lot of people seem to underrate him despite how clearly we missed him last year. His skills in positioning, reading of the game, marking and tracking are probably even more critical in this system where the middle of our defense tends to be more vulnerable.
 

sportbilly1966

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Because on top of everything else every team that we come across suddenly turns into Barcelona and Real Madrid when it comes to converting their chances. What was it, 4 attempts on target by Udinese and 3 goals scored ?
Totally agree with this! the quality of finishing against us at times as been unbelievable, look at the 2 goals they scored today (not counting Coates OG...although that was placed low and in the corner :tongue:) both were great finishes that Reina got close to but couldn't keep out...
 

tooloom

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For those wanting to watch it, the whole game is available at

http://livetv.ru/en/showvideo/113196_marseille_ael/
Also links to goals & highlights.
Full match has Russian commentary but is good quality.
Links on the page to goals and long and short highlights - don't know in what language - I'm just watching the first half - again - now
that I'm fully awake.
Thought Gerrard for Hendo was wrong at the time and none of the arguments here have altered MY opinion. Hendo was playing a blinder.However much you need to chase the game, you shouldn't pull off your best performer, especially one who is bossing the Midfield like that. Allen was having his poorest match since joining us and Shelvey had more or less disappeared. His "mistimed" tackles tend to be a worry. His gusto is inversely proportional, however, to Downings. Whilst SD had one of his best games wearing our shirt, the most telling moment for me was in time added after the 90. After some fine work and his average shot went straight to the keeper, his expression just didn't change.No muttered curse or any reaction except to turn round and walk back. A few more lesser games like this to showcase his talents and then take the first offer after Xmas.
Udinese were lucky to have 11 men on the field by the time they scored (or rather they and big Seb scored). The tackle against Luis (which could well have been red) and the rugby/wrestling tackle on Downing (which should have been red) would have been reds had we committed them in the EPL.

YNWA
 

TheKaiser

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The goal started from Gerrards misplaced pass, every player makes a bad pass, but what happened next is unforgivable he just walked!!!! ..... contrast this to a really bad square pass in midfield from Joe Allen, his response was to sprint back and then win the ball back, the same happened in the 1st Half with Hendo he gave a bad pass but then worked hard to get back and get goal side.

All players make bad passes, it how you respond to this that matters, that is what Brendan has to instill in to the players. Every time that we have switched off, which has normally been one player has cost us a lot of goals this season, we need to be mentally stronger and as Brendan has said we need each player to do the dirty work
I just watched it again and Gerrard didn't even show up in the frame again, even though the goal was scored 15 seconds later, but Downing did, who had to have started out 20 yards further upfield than Gerrard. It's a disturbing lack of awareness and effort from the captain after we'd just won the ball back. The sad thing is that it was the second time in 10 seconds that he'd given the ball away after about a minute and a half of possession from his teammates after we'd just conceded the second.
 

lfc.eddie

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I just watched it again and Gerrard didn't even show up in the frame again, which was scored 20 seconds later, but Downing did, who had to have started out 20 yards further upfield than Gerrard. It's a disturbing lack of awareness andand effort from the captain after we'd just won the ball back.
You are judging a player based on TV only? I think that is a bit off. No wonder a lot of people complain about arm chair managers.
 

lfc.eddie

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And you're an Anfield regular, are you?
Judging a player based on a screen captured by a camera at that instant, zoomed into the area of action is by no means the best way of passing your judgement on a player. Unless he was tasked to be on that side of the pitch all along, or he is a defensive midfielder, or marking the man specifically, and went missing. We cannot keep going about saying things like, I don't see him on TV when the goal was scored, even after 20 seconds.
 

TheKaiser

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Judging a player based on a screen captured by a camera at that instant, zoomed into the area of action is by no means the best way of passing your judgement on a player. Unless he was tasked to be on that side of the pitch all along, or he is a defensive midfielder, or marking the man specifically, and went missing. We cannot keep going about saying things like, I don't see him on TV when the goal was scored, even after 20 seconds.
Now you're just being contrary for the sake of it. The vast majority of people on this site comment on what they see on TV (you included I imagine). Nothing I've described or criticized him for wasn't sufficiently captured on the broadcast. He lost the ball twice, and after the second time he was on camera slowly walking as the ball was punted forward. At that same time, Downing was visibly 20 yards ahead of him. As the goal went in, Downing was next to the scorer and Gerrard was nowhere to be seen in a shot that captured 25 yards from goal and in.

A lot of other people witnessed this in the game. Many stated as much in this thread.
 

ptt

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Very good performance all round. Yes we lost but we'll qualify in the long run. Most, not some of out football was excallent. Udi were like us for the past 10 years. Losing the ball at every opportunity, waiting 3 minutes to get it back then winning against the run of play.
 

SoueysTash

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can anyone confirm whether Shelveys celebration of a two footed diving tackle was in reference to Jonny Evans failure to get sent off against Manure?
 

Red Armada

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What bugs me with the new "dance" though is that we are saying goodbye to long balls. Not just saying this because it's a problem for our Captain, as we again saw today.

I remember the way Pepe and our defenders were finding Fernando (and even Stevie). Same with other strikers before 2008.

I certainly hope Brendan's plan works, and I don't mind the "rebuilding" even if it's over 2 years. But the problem is lack of flexibility and bad results. Today was not a match to lose by conceding 3, as we are going down fast as far as defensive performance.

We are becoming the country's laughing stock at home, the way we give up points and goals. Here are the last 4 at home:

Citeh 2
Arsenal 2
Utd 2
Udinese 3

9 goals in 4

This is not good for Pepe, our defense, and the entire psychie of the team.

Also, the point about flexibility is that football is a near-scientific activity anymore. Each game and each opponent must be studied, and adjusted for. Cup competitions especially, continental cups, require a different approach. And today again, it appeared that we prescribing the same approach.

You say, it's because we are "practicing".....and I don't like that.

I don't like that anyone and everyone will come to Anfield and bully us around. Because we are so wonderful but we concede and lose. That will be nearly irepairable. It'll be part of our DNA and who we are.

Someone needs to explain this to our manager.
I see where you are coming from and i largely agree. We can't play this expansive free flow football in Europe and expect success. Adaptability is a key attribute of world class managers and that's going to be the ultimate test for Rodgers. He has to prove that he isn't a one trick pony.

With that said it is way too early to judge him on that front. He's been at the helm only for a few months and the players have yet to assimilate his system. Once that takes place we'll see how willing he'll be to mix it up.
 

jim82

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What bugs me with the new "dance" though is that we are saying goodbye to long balls. Not just saying this because it's a problem for our Captain, as we again saw today.

I remember the way Pepe and our defenders were finding Fernando (and even Stevie). Same with other strikers before 2008.

I certainly hope Brendan's plan works, and I don't mind the "rebuilding" even if it's over 2 years. But the problem is lack of flexibility and bad results. Today was not a match to lose by conceding 3, as we are going down fast as far as defensive performance.

We are becoming the country's laughing stock at home, the way we give up points and goals. Here are the last 4 at home:

Citeh 2
Arsenal 2
Utd 2
Udinese 3

9 goals in 4

This is not good for Pepe, our defense, and the entire psychie of the team.

Also, the point about flexibility is that football is a near-scientific activity anymore. Each game and each opponent must be studied, and adjusted for. Cup competitions especially, continental cups, require a different approach. And today again, it appeared that we prescribing the same approach.

You say, it's because we are "practicing".....and I don't like that.

I don't like that anyone and everyone will come to Anfield and bully us around. Because we are so wonderful but we concede and lose. That will be nearly irepairable. It'll be part of our DNA and who we are.

Someone needs to explain this to our manager.
I see your concern, but we do still play long balls.

Fact is we should have won that game last night, but sloppy attacking meant we didn't capitalise on the 1 goal lead, and sloppy defending, as usual, meant we couldn't hang on to it.

Was great to finally see Di Natale play live though, and fitting that he got an ovation from the home support when he was subbed off.

Great moment.

Anzhi will be tougher than that, but we might be up for that more as a result.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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See whats happening at the club very much as building in phases:

1: Work on the teams passing 85% accuarcy should be the bare minimum for a Liverpool player. Check.

2: Work on goalscoring. Make sure the whole team is contributing to goals and generally need to make sure the team are scoring more than once per game. Well underway.

3: Focus on defensive stability and work on the whole teams defensive performance as in pressing all over pitch and winning ball back straight away wherever its lost. Got to be next in line to be worked on.

4: Work on the attack to make it more fluid with more interchanging of positions amongst the front 3 or 4. Doubt we'll acheive that till towards the end of the season.
 

gb1986

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Judging a player based on a screen captured by a camera at that instant, zoomed into the area of action is by no means the best way of passing your judgement on a player. Unless he was tasked to be on that side of the pitch all along, or he is a defensive midfielder, or marking the man specifically, and went missing. We cannot keep going about saying things like, I don't see him on TV when the goal was scored, even after 20 seconds.
I've got to agree with Kaiser here, Gerrard lost the ball and made no effort to win it back. He hadn't been on the pitch long, he should have had enough energy to chase it down and put it under pressure. We're playing that sort of football now, if you lose the ball you should want to get it back to help out your teammates, not pass on the responsibility to someone else. Especially when this is the captain we're speaking of.

I'm confident that if you saw Downing or Hendo or someone else lose the ball in midfield and make no attempt to track back you would be on their case about it, and rightly so.

Anyway i thought we played well, couldn't put up with the high pressing of Udinese in the second half and Shelvey had stopped finding the space he was getting in the first half. But overall i think everyone played very well, the first goal we hadn't even turned ourselves on again from half time, the second was unfortunate, Coates not quick enough to make his mind up but he'd played very well despite that i thought. And the 3rd goal as mentioned was losing the ball cheaply and not putting in enough effort to get back.

Amazing freekick from Suarez though, and i thought that challenge on Downing should have been a straight red, it goes past a professional foul really that does.

We were the better team by far, we should have put it to bed really but i don't think there's any reason to freak out, no one had a bad game really. Most people on here knew it would be tough against Udinese but there were a few who thought we would demolish them even with just the kids, you can't underestimate anyone anymore, especially when they've got some players that will punish you (Di Natale, what a goal).

Hopefully we'll bounce back with a result at Stoke.

Another thing i will say is that approaching a europa league match most people on this forum want us to play a weak team and some don't even want to be in the competition at all, so it's disappointing to see knee jerk reactions to a bad result despite a good performance in the competition.
 

lfc.eddie

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Another thing i will say is that approaching a europa league match most people on this forum want us to play a weak team and some don't even want to be in the competition at all, so it's disappointing to see knee jerk reactions to a bad result despite a good performance in the competition.
Maybe, just maybe those people weren't the one disappointed with the results? You telling me it should not be deemed a disappointment losing at Anfield?
 

gb1986

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Maybe, just maybe those people weren't the one disappointed with the results? You telling me it should not be deemed a disappointment losing at Anfield?
No Eddie that is not what i'm saying at all and you know it. I'm disappointed, i've stated in the pre match threads that i want to do well in the competition.

I have to say you seem very argumentative a lot the time and seem to discourage discussion wherever possible despite us being on a forum. Most of the time you've insightful things to say but telling someone off for discussing an incident just because they saw it on TV and not live is baffling, i'm willing to bet most people on here saw the game on TV. Did you go to the game by any chance? Maybe you could shed some light on the incident in question, was there a reason Gerrard didn't make an attempt to get back?
 

RedBaron

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Very good performance in the first half, but as RichLFC said we are very fragile. When it's all going well we look purposeful, intelligent, quick and dangerous. That could be because we lacked experience in midfield. Carra's got loads but he is usually in the wrong part of the pitch (As he should be) leaving the young lads to bomb around a lot. Joe, although young keeps people clever with his passing but does not penetrate, although the one time he did he got into the box and caused problems.

I am really enjoying the way BR sets up his team and makes them play, I am not enjoying the fact that we let in so many goals, whoever makes up the back four. The youngsters to me look better than the first team. Perhaps that's because they do not have all the bad habits the older players have and so are able to pick up BR's plans quicker.

That however is the big problem. We have some really talented, skilful youngsters in the team. We have some great pro's, Suarez, Stevie, Agger. Reina. The youngsters have the talent but not the experiance, the pro's have the experiance but will struggle to adapt to BR's tactics, and in the PL, when it doesn't work it leads to a goal. We do not have enough Sahin's and Lucas's at the club. Players, with skill, few pre-conceptions and in their mid twenties to have the experience to make a difference and fewer mistakes with the new system.

Sadly we don't have the money to bring in those types of players in all sectors of the pitch. So the process of teaching the old dogs new tricks, waiting for our youngsters to improve and gain experience which could take 3/4 years plus our policy of paying for young lads with potential probably means trophies and much more importantly a real PL challenge are a long way off. I think we are 2 or 3 good players away from making a challenge next season, however, FSG will probably prefer to wait.

Many of you may be satisfied with good performances, not me. I expect more.
 

Billy Biskix

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We're in a tough group and will do well to get out of it. It was good to see Jack Robinson get a game and I thought the first half performance was excellent. Our passing and movement generally was superb and Shelvey's goal was top class. Henderson was probably the best player on the pitch and I was surprised to see him taken off.

Defensively we have been a worry since the first game against Gomel and I don't think we're anywhere near sorting it out yet. It is too simplistic to say it's down to individual errors or lack of concentration. Yes, it is poor that we sometimes lose possession in the opponent's half but we had 75% possession last night and conceded three goals. How much better do we need to be in keeping the ball to stop leaking goals? 80%, 90%??

For me, the CBs aren't getting enough protection. There is usually a large gap between them and the midfield with the full backs pushed right up. If we do lose possession (and it's inevitable that we will at some stage) we are faced with runners all over the park with the CBs back-pedalling furiously. We are playing a very open game, stretched right across the pitch and I don't think we've got the balance quite right yet between defence and attack. Defensively we are not a cohesive unit at all, regardless of the personnel we use.

Barca can play like this but we ain't Barca. I think BR will continue to persist and won't want to compromise which I think is fine as long as we all realise that the defensive aspect of this system is probably going to be the hardest to get right. As with everything right now, patience is the key.
 



Doggie

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can anyone confirm whether Shelveys celebration of a two footed diving tackle was in reference to Jonny Evans failure to get sent off against Manure?
That's how it looked to me lol

And what a goal!!! Absolute peach - our best goal of the season imho.
 

Hope in your heart

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That can't be right? 3 attempts on goal? Reina did a fantastic save in the first half.
The UEFA stats show three attempts on goal, while the bbc website says five. But either way, one of their goals was an own goal, and thus doesn't count in these stats... that save from Pepe was extraordinary btw...
 

Mike1892

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Agree Billy, It's not lost on me how often we get caught with load of players ahead of the ball. Gerrard has lost the ball 80 yards from our box on about 5 occasions this season and its resulted in a goal.

I think we have have t many players capable off a gaff alongside a new system that at the moment leaves us being a great team to watch from a neutrals perspective but a fucking nightmare as a supporter.

That 35 year old wasn't too bad up front either like was he!
 

gb1986

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The UEFA stats show three attempts on goal, while the bbc website says five. But either way, one of their goals was an own goal, and thus doesn't count in these stats... that save from Pepe was extraordinary btw...
That's a testament to their finishing rather than our defensive frailties in my mind. Yes we could have done better defensively obviously, but to put 2 out of 3 chances away in the fashion they did is excellent, they weren't easy chances i thought Di Natales goal was brilliant.

Imagine if we were able to put 2 out of 3 away :blink:
 

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(...)

Downing wasnt as awful as he has been, very good cross for Shelvey's first goal, but like the rest, provided next to zero in the second half when things got difficult. Trouble is with this team, they dont do adversity very well, they are weak minded when it comes down to it. Its a bit betetr when Sterling and Suso are there but it seems still an ingrained problem which managers cant seem to solve very easily here
Agree about the mental weakness of this team. BR even called it lazyness, and he really won't have liked how the team let itself down after coming back from the half-time rest. A typical Downing performance during around 25-30 minutes, but from the whole team this time: hiding, letting the others have a run to defend or chase balls... disgusting... :wacko:

After we were two goals down, the players showed a bit of pride, but it was too little, too late.

Bottom point is, you don't change bad habits from the last three years around just like that, even with a new gaffer, new training methods and a new playing philosophy.

As you say, this team needs a winning run and a bit of good luck along the way in order to click mentally, but the problem is that we don't get any continued break because of being inconsistent. You create your own luck by working hard, which they haven't done consistently (looking at the senior players here, not so much the youngsters who have been mostly excellent).

After the first half, the players had everything in their hands to win this match and build up momentum. But with this sloppy display in the second half, the players fully deserve what came upon them.

They need to show a positive reaction now, and Stoke provide the perfect test for this: a determined, aggressive squad who will try to play rugby and hurt us as hard as possible. Let's look at how the players can cope with this challenge...