Post-Match: Liverpool 0-1 Southampton

Cool_CR

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Well im not nearly as negative as most on here.

Look at what your saying. Enrique should have started? because we looked so much better when he came on? You didnt watch the same match I did?

Dont let a few victorys go to your heads were a work in progress also dont spit your dummy out over one loss it happens on another night we get the penalty and we go a goal up Southamton chase and we put them away or at worst draw the match.

People are saying we didnt have any edge in the final third well duh all the edge players are out for one reason or another.
Coutinho and Suarez will give us what we need to put teams like southampton down. Hell if Allen had been fit maybe Gerrard would have been able to play a bit further forward as we seem to rely on Gerrard to get the ball rolling literaly or are attack just move aimlesly from one side to the other.

As it was we played what we had BR didnt have much to pick from and cannot be faulted beause he tried both Aspas and Sterling neather looked match sharp Aspas is new to the leauge and Sterling is only 18 so i dont think we need explode on them yet but its obviouse we need more players maybe another fullback will be on the shopping list.

On the night the decision to start with Henderson over a player like Alberto or Sterling when there was going to be so little of the normal width from the back four that were used to was the most obviouse thing we could have changed.
 

Quagmire81

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Harsh reality check is what that game was all about. Still relying too much on individual performances, cause we are not playing as a fully gel team. The spine of the team is weak, that's why we are so inconsistent. The engine room in our midfield are not dynamic enough, we have Stevie who is (and should) focusing most of his energy on when he's on the ball, not off it. And we got Lucas who just ain't got the stamina to make up for it full game, and simply average at best on the ball. And then we had an AM that could't take the necessary pressure off them by putting pressure on the opponent.

The three man midfield combination was so off in my view, and it is the most important aspect in creating a successful team. We never really dealt with this problem ever since the last time we had one that worked, back with Xabi, Masch and Stevie. It's no surprise we haven't been successful since those days.
 

Bobbinho

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i_still_miss_fowler said:
The expectation is when your team is under pressure that's when a defensive midfielder should come to the fore (As he did when Hodgson was in charge). It is one thing not noticing a defensive midfielder when you are on top, it another when the opposition are far more threatening.

This is why people expect more. Fact is his numbers are poor this season for the 18 tackles contrasted with 14 fouls. These are not great numbers 5 games into the season given we have been on the back foot for large periods of almost every game.

Use the Squawka tool to compare midfielders

Using all games, the first 45 minutes Squawka ranks Gerrard and Lucas as the two best midfielders in the league overall. Gerrard 5th overall in a defensive sense, Lucas 6th. In attacking sense Gerrard 9th and Lucas 29th. (Possession numbers bumping them up to top)

Using the second 45 minutes, Squawka ranks Gerrard the 6th best midfielder, while Lucas drops all the way down to 73rd. Illustrating how bad he has been during the second half of games. Even in a defensive sense in the second half, Lucas is ranked 25th (Gerrard 5th)

Of course his numbers are impacted by the teams numbers, but people are complaining that Gerrard is unable to get past the 60 minute mark, but for me at the moment it looks like its Lucas.
There we have it, the stat's that back up the observations of a few of us in here & debunked the recent myth that Gerrard is unable to play out the full 90mins.....seem's like Lucas is at fault for dropping off in the second half & that can be seen clearly because Gerrard has been forced to cover his position.....which is why he looks so fucking tired out there lately.

Thankyou for posting this, but of course the debate will rumble on regardless....
 

Canuck33

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What a shocker yesterday! Subpar by just about everyone except Mignolett. No fire in the team. Very disappointing.
 

Verbal80

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You can always tell when we have a bad result as by he next day we have more pages then the quaresma rumour and Lucas' name becomes as well used as the letter E.

I'm as disappointed as anyone. But because of frustration, I hold off saying anything right after the game.

I'm not going to mention Lucas, not because I think he is without fault, but I don't want to add to the already over the top amateur analysis of a player. I will mention Gerrard though as I thought he had a real shocker (along with others). I think I saw him pull out of nearly every 50/50 challenge he went into and subsequently put us under serious pressure. One of his main attributes was his fight in the middle of the park, but yesterday's he looked scared, which is not something you want to see from your captain.

We lacked leadership in the right areas yesterday. No more so then defence - and Brendan has to take blame here - I'd rather have seen us start with Kolo and Agger. Four(4) CB's?!? I raised a very serious eyebrow to that and got proven right. I actually thought Sakho did ok defensively at LB and probably should've stayed there. But Kolo made one(1) attacking run down the right all game. Just one, where he did a 1-2 with Sturridge and couldn't get his shot off.

Up front we lacked any cutting edge and I know some will point to lack of match fitness in Moses and Sturridge, but the latter showed his bad qualities yesterday. When things aren't going right for you (and it happens to all forwards) you need to resort to alternative options and Sturridge didn't. He kept trying to flog a dead horse and I remember one in particular where he blasted a shot high and wide instead of passing.

Overall everyone was disappointing including Brendan so Wednesday can't come quick enough
 

Canuck33

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kopite1982 said:
What the hells happening to sterling aswell?? To much money in his bank i think! We concede 0 in 3 then bring sakho in and concede 3 in 2 !! Stick to whats best! Agger / toure how it was!!
Agger was poor yesterday and didn't look good when they scored. Sakho was probably behind Mignolet our best player, albeit by a large margin, once he moved to CB.
 

rab

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adamc249390 said:
I clearly do know what a DM role is and what attributes they should posses, Lucas doesn't have them attributes, again would Lucas get in the top teams in the league? The answer is no
Would Enrique get in a top team in the league as a left back? No. Doesn't mean he doesn't have the attributes of a left back though which is the big flaw in your argument against Lucas.
 

lovepool

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Just watching Baros on LFCTV now and it really shows the lack of depth we have in striking areas. We lack a pure goalscorer to bring off the bench when we need a goal.

Remy would have cost similar money to Aspas and would have given us more of a goal threat while also being able to play wide. Maybe his court problems put us off but Newcastle have got a bargain
 

charleslee89

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RedHed said:
Grooveshark, the level of pleasure you seem to have gotten from that performance is palpable. I'd say you had that "I told you so" post ready to copy and paste for a while now. I just don't know how the club hasn't come knocking on your door to help them out. God forbid the team find something going forward and actually succeed, it'll ruin your year.
Well, coutinho is out for six weeks and suarez is not exactly a number 10. There's always a chance that coutinho will be injured again or suarez getting himself into trouble again. By then, the january window wouldn't be able to save our top 5 dreams.

rab said:
You said the best players in Lucas's postion spray 40 yard passes and have huge stamina levels to charge around the park. I was simply pointing out that the best player in the world playing the same position as Lucas does not play the way you expect Lucas to.

Lucas and Busquets play the same position and are expected to play in a similar way to each other. Neither are the player to be pinging 40 yard passes about which is what you said earlier. Yes Busquets is a better player but his function in the side is to do the simple stuff that allows the more technically gifted players to play. That is Lucas's function in our team.

This will be the last time I try and explain this to you
The problem is that Lucas cannot last the 90 minutes. It seems the whole team cannot do that to. Btw, you said that lucas job is to do the simple stuff that allows the more technically gifted players to play. The thing is that we don't really have anyone who really have the skill set of supposedly technically gifted players in the midfield or even the attack line in the absence of suarez and coutinho.
 

rab

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charleslee89 said:
Well, coutinho is out for six weeks and suarez is not exactly a number 10. There's always a chance that coutinho will be injured again or suarez getting himself into trouble again. By then, the january window wouldn't be able to save our top 5 dreams.

The problem is that Lucas cannot last the 90 minutes. It seems the whole team cannot do that to. Btw, you said that lucas job is to do the simple stuff that allows the more technically gifted players to play. The thing is that we don't really have anyone who really have the skill set of supposedly technically gifted players in the midfield or even the attack line in the absence of suarez and coutinho.
To be honest the fitness of the entire team is a concern. Read somewhere that a drop off in performance in the second half early on in the season is generally indicative of over training in pre-season. Don't know how true this is or not but his stamina is in line with most of the rest of the squad.

Lucas, Gerrard and Coutinho/Henderson have been at the heart of the midfield whilst we've lost just one of our previous fifteen games before yesterday. This season it's looked shakey, end of last season they looked solid. Question should be what's changed?
 

charleslee89

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rab said:
To be honest the fitness of the entire team is a concern. Read somewhere that a drop off in performance in the second half early on in the season is generally indicative of over training in pre-season. Don't know how true this is or not but his stamina is in line with most of the rest of the squad.

Lucas, Gerrard and Coutinho/Henderson have been at the heart of the midfield whilst we've lost just one of our previous fifteen games before yesterday. This season it's looked shakey, end of last season they looked solid. Question should be what's changed?
i think fitness levels are not there and the forward line is not holding the ball well which invites pressure to the midfield and defense. This is also why the previous league matches were all very tight games...
 

kopite1982

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What possessed BR paying over 15 m for aspas and alberto? For the future?? Aspas was wank yday ( excuse language) and alberto ( backup to coutinhio) cant even get a start at home to southampton.

Sick of medioce players and wasted millions!
 

RichLFC

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kopite1982 said:
What possessed BR paying over 15 m for aspas and alberto? For the future?? Aspas was wank yday ( excuse language) and alberto ( backup to coutinhio) cant even get a start at home to southampton.
Sick of medioce players and wasted millions!
I hope both improve. Alberto for me was always going to be a long term project

But that is also part of the problem with our transfer policy. We seem to 'want' to be ambitious, but only if it doesn't cost too much. That would go on our recruitment teams gravestone to some extent. We do need more for the here and now rather than a lot of maybes and possiblys. Which aren't necessarily just loans. Aspas on top of Borini arguably is starting to look like it could end up being another case of throwing good money after bad. When a proper top notch signing researched, approached and sewn up early on may have been more productive. Am not at all convinced our planning regarding the attacking transfer options was anywhere near good enough despite not being quite as inept as last year in that we at least were able to borrow someone useable in Moses. Also I don't like it when we buy squad players. New signings should be pushing older options to the bench more often than not rather than be there to fill a space. Should have learned by now that injuries expose these kinds of inadequacies in fringe signings, who can often find themselves buggered around in turn as square pegs in round holes

Having said that do expect us to be better next week when Suarez returns. But Rodgers also has to decide what his best choice CB pairing is. Something tells me he is still being a bit economical with the truth in terms of post match observations regarding fitness of players etc when the real problem is that he ain't sure who to play yet yet has decided he isn't keen on one or two like Enrique perhaps. Just a hunch

In general want to see more ambition and less excuses. All round, not just on the pitch. But as I said, do expect us to look better when we have our first choice side out there, with Suarez. Though how long he will remain here is a matter of conjecture, we do need him for the here and now
 

charleslee89

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RichLFC said:
I hope both improve. Alberto for me was always going to be a long term project

But that is also part of the problem with our transfer policy. We seem to 'want' to be ambitious, but only if it doesn't cost too much. That would go on our recruitment teams gravestone to some extent. We do need more for the here and now rather than a lot of maybes and possiblys. Which aren't necessarily just loans. Aspas on top of Borini arguably is starting to look like it could end up being another case of throwing good money after bad. When a proper top notch signing researched, approached and sewn up early on may have been more productive. Am not at all convinced our planning regarding the attacking transfer options was anywhere near good enough despite not being quite as inept as last year in that we at least were able to borrow someone useable in Moses. Also I don't like it when we buy squad players. New signings should be pushing older options to the bench more often than not rather than be there to fill a space. Should have learned by now that injuries expose these kinds of inadequacies in fringe signings, who can often find themselves buggered around in turn as square pegs in round holes

Having said that do expect us to be better next week when Suarez returns. But Rodgers also has to decide what his best choice CB pairing is. Something tells me he is still being a bit economical with the truth in terms of post match observations regarding fitness of players etc when the real problem is that he ain't sure who to play yet yet has decided he isn't keen on one or two like Enrique perhaps. Just a hunch
Well-said! Would be great if BR and his scouting team listens to you...
 

adamc249390

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kopite1982 said:
What possessed BR paying over 15 m for aspas and alberto? For the future?? Aspas was wank yday ( excuse language) and alberto ( backup to coutinhio) cant even get a start at home to southampton.
Sick of medioce players and wasted millions!
Correct to many players like the above have cost us millions, add borini to that list, that's 25million plus on 3 players not good enough.
 

kopite1982

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Compare our 4 yesturday of gerrard aspas lucas henderson to

Wilshere
Ozil
Ramsey
Flamini

And throw in the injured diaby, arteta, carlzola, ox, theo....

Jesus christ this is grim
 

adamc249390

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rab said:
Would Enrique get in a top team in the league as a left back? No. Doesn't mean he doesn't have the attributes of a left back though which is the big flaw in your argument against Lucas.
he isn't better than evra or ashley cole, but he isn't far behind the likes of Gibbs or Clichy, you could argue he is around the same level as these 2 players and would certainly compete for a starting place against them. Now would Lucas play for united in front of carrick,cleverly and now Fellini, city in front of toure, fernandinho, Garcia, arsenal Ramsey, flamini or diaby. Spurs have the likes of Sandro, dembele,paulinho even Cardiffs new signing Medal looks more of a player than Lucas, this is 1 of the most important positions on the pitch, where players who perform in these position can grab games by the scruff of the neck and go and set the tone of the game with a telling pass or a good solid challenge, Lucas cannot influence a game in any aspect what so ever, and also you bring Enrique up, left backs don't win you leagues, you can get away with average steady 7/10 full backs season in season out and still be successful, Gary Neville done it for 10 years and won everything, Steve finnan was another perfect example of this, steady player, wasn't a match winner but full backs rarely are, look at Pablo zabaleta 7/10 every week. Bringing Enrique into the conversation shows your knowledge. Since Lucas has been a mainstay in our team, we have won the league cup once, and guess what he didn't play in the final!
 

Defuz

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Further reflections:

Sakho. When he swapped to CB he looked at home. Keep him there.
Skrtel. Putting in a lot of effort all across the back line. Keep these two together and let them build together.

Toure tried his best at RB and did okay, but we miss the fluid performance of Johnson. (Wisdom needs experience and maturity. Once we have some injured players back I hope we can loan him out ASAP)

Aspas is NOT a midfield or withdrawn forward play-maker. I know Brendan wants him to be.....but he's not. He's starting to look like he's no more than a slight (stature - weak - easily out-muscled) second level player who is struggling at the top level.

Moses is a great pickup. Not a total world beater, but settling in nicely and growing. He commands defensive attention. He may soon be, if not already, a lock as a starter on the left.

Sturridge dropped back in the second half and actually did reasonably well feeding balls to ........? He desperately needs a striking partner. I hope he and Luis can forge a great partnership.

Our midfield is threadbare at best. Stevie's still got it, but he can't do it all. This is our biggest squad deficiency by far. Hendo and Lucas can hustle and get the ball or break up the opposition's possession, but are both poor distributors. Played together our creativity is lacking, at best.

Countiho out through injury means we created or possessed practically nothing through the middle. Used to having a consistent attacking threat from deep via Enrique and Johnson to compliment, without all three we were left hesitantly searching and we never found anything of value.

In January I'd love to see us snag a legit midfield creator to compliment Coutinho.

Enrique came on and did okay in the back, but going forward he kept (glaringly bad) passing the ball to the touchline. No one even close. Was that because he was off, or because we didn't have a defined shape or plan of attack?

Too much tinkering with the lineup. Injuries and suspensions aside, we need to gain some stability.
 

alphakilo

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adamc249390 said:
he isn't better than evra or ashley cole, but he isn't far behind the likes of Gibbs or Clichy, you could argue he is around the same level as these 2 players and would certainly compete for a starting place against them. Now would Lucas play for united in front of carrick,cleverly and now Fellini, city in front of toure, fernandinho, Garcia, arsenal Ramsey, flamini or diaby. Spurs have the likes of Sandro, dembele,paulinho even Cardiffs new signing Medal looks more of a player than Lucas, this is 1 of the most important positions on the pitch, where players who perform in these position can grab games by the scruff of the neck and go and set the tone of the game with a telling pass or a good solid challenge, Lucas cannot influence a game in any aspect what so ever, and also you bring Enrique up, left backs don't win you leagues, you can get away with average steady 7/10 full backs season in season out and still be successful, Gary Neville done it for 10 years and won everything, Steve finnan was another perfect example of this, steady player, wasn't a match winner but full backs rarely are, look at Pablo zabaleta 7/10 every week. Bringing Enrique into the conversation shows your knowledge. Since Lucas has been a mainstay in our team, we have won the league cup once, and guess what he didn't play in the final!
Surprised how many people actually use this as an objective argument to back up their subjective opinion, when in truth it is the other way round.

Full backs don't win you leagues. But neither do central midfielders, or goalkeepers, or strikers, or wingers.

One example out of many: Billy Liddell won one league title in 16 seasons with Liverpool, 7 of which were spent in the second division. Make of that what you will.
 

adamc249390

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alphakilo said:
Surprised how many people actually consider this a legitimate argument.

Full backs don't win you leagues. But neither do central midfielders, or goalkeepers, or strikers, or wingers.

One example out of many: Billy Liddell won one league title in 16 seasons with Liverpool, 7 of which were spent in the second division. Make of that what you will.
No full backs don't win win you leagues but if you have the best 2 centre midfielders in the world rather than the 2 best full backs in the world, you will be more successful with the midfielders because they effect the game more than them, quite obvious really
 

alphakilo

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adamc249390 said:
No full backs don't win win you leagues but if you have the best 2 centre midfielders in the world rather than the 2 best full backs in the world, you will be more successful with the midfielders because they effect the game more than them, quite obvious really
So basically if we had Xavi and Iniesta instead of Lucas and Henderson, we'd win the league?
 

rab

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adamc249390 said:
he isn't better than evra or ashley cole, but he isn't far behind the likes of Gibbs or Clichy, you could argue he is around the same level as these 2 players and would certainly compete for a starting place against them. Now would Lucas play for united in front of carrick,cleverly and now Fellini, city in front of toure, fernandinho, Garcia, arsenal Ramsey, flamini or diaby. Spurs have the likes of Sandro, dembele,paulinho even Cardiffs new signing Medal looks more of a player than Lucas, this is 1 of the most important positions on the pitch, where players who perform in these position can grab games by the scruff of the neck and go and set the tone of the game with a telling pass or a good solid challenge, Lucas cannot influence a game in any aspect what so ever, and also you bring Enrique up, left backs don't win you leagues, you can get away with average steady 7/10 full backs season in season out and still be successful, Gary Neville done it for 10 years and won everything, Steve finnan was another perfect example of this, steady player, wasn't a match winner but full backs rarely are, look at Pablo zabaleta 7/10 every week. Bringing Enrique into the conversation shows your knowledge. Since Lucas has been a mainstay in our team, we have won the league cup once, and guess what he didn't play in the final!
Mate, every time I point out the flaw in your argument you change your argument. Your latest "point" is we've only won the league cup with Lucas in the side so he must be the reason why. Pathetic, poorly thought out and quite frankly wrong. Gerrard is the player in our side who is meant to dictate the play, tempo and grab the game by the scruff of the neck. Lucas is there to allow Gerrard the chance to do that because he isn't restrained by as many defensive responsibilities.

You don't understand the role Lucas is meant to play, your comments about DM attributes and Lucas's short comings makes this patently obvious. And yet you keep banging on about him being crap. It's laughable.

I'll leave you to think what you want now no matter how misguided it is because im just bored of your rubbish.
 

alphakilo

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rab said:
Your latest "point" is we've only won the league cup with Lucas in the side so he must be the reason why.
He's not the only one though. Others have implied that if we'd had someone else other than Lucas, we wouldn't have suffered a decline over the past few years. A bit of a simpleton's approach really. I could just as easily say that Lucas is a flawless player surrounded by shite teammates who are the real downfall of the club - but that would be equally thoughtless.
 

adamc249390

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rab said:
Mate, every time I point out the flaw in your argument you change your argument. Your latest "point" is we've only won the league cup with Lucas in the side so he must be the reason why. Pathetic, poorly thought out and quite frankly wrong. Gerrard is the player in our side who is meant to dictate the play, tempo and grab the game by the scruff of the neck. Lucas is there to allow Gerrard the chance to do that because he isn't restrained by as many defensive responsibilities.

You don't understand the role Lucas is meant to play, your comments about DM attributes and Lucas's short comings makes this patently obvious. And yet you keep banging on about him being crap. It's laughable.

I'll leave you to think what you want now no matter how misguided it is because im just bored of your rubbish.
Still haven't answered would he get in any of the top teams. With you avoiding the question makes the answer obvious. Gerrard cannot grab the game by the scruff of the neck like he used to, but in previous seasons when he was at his best he had players like alonso who was on his wavelength, unfortunately the current players are no where near that level, and it's obviously affects Gerard's performance a long with his age, playing with better players make you a better player. At home when we have more possession than the opposition, does Lucas offer anything to justify a starting place?
 

adamc249390

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alphakilo said:
So basically if we had Xavi and Iniesta instead of Lucas and Henderson, we'd win the league?
No we wouldnt win the lesgue, but we wouldnt be far off,but I'd rather have them 2 in my team rather than say Lahm and Cole/alba (arguably the best full backs in world football today)
You would win more games with xavi and iniesta IMO, because the position they play influence the game much greater.
 

rab

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alphakilo said:
He's not the only one though. Others have implied that if we'd had someone else other than Lucas, we wouldn't have suffered a decline over the past few years. A bit of a simpleton's approach really. I could just as easily say that Lucas is a flawless player surrounded by shite teammates who are the real downfall of the club - but that would be equally thoughtless.
It's like saying we were European Champions when we had Dudek but since we ditched him for Reina we've only won the FA Cup so Dudek is better. It's a flawed logic to say one player is the reason for sub par performances.

It's a team game and despite people's opinions of Lucas he has been picked regularly by Benitez, Daglish and Rodgers. These three see him day in, day out and have yet to bring someone else in to force Lucas to the bench or out the club. But of course the keyboard coaches on here know better.
 

lovepool

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rab said:
It's like saying we were European Champions when we had Dudek but since we ditched him for Reina we've only won the FA Cup so Dudek is better. It's a flawed logic to say one player is the reason for sub par performances.

It's a team game and despite people's opinions of Lucas he has been picked regularly by Benitez, Daglish and Rodgers. These three see him day in, day out and have yet to bring someone else in to force Lucas to the bench or out the club. But of course the keyboard coaches on here know better.
Lucas is a decent player when he is on form but since his injury he has been off the pace. His tackling has been poor and he lacks the fitnesd or stamina to track opposition midfielders. What games have you been watching that he has played to his top level?
 

RichLFC

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lovepool said:
Lucas is a decent player when he is on form but since his injury he has been off the pace. His tackling has been poor and he lacks the fitnesd or stamina to track opposition midfielders. What games have you been watching that he has played to his top level?
I actually agree with you on this issue. I think it's an area where we have decided to put off fixing for the time being but in the next couple of windows if the situation persists, we will have to do something about it. I thik we have been a little afraid to change it about as Lucas has been a loyal and hardworking servant to all his LFC managers, even the Hodge. But he looks half a step slow since his 2 major injuries and that crucial little bit of pace could be gone for good. Costing him perhaps a World Cup place and maybe casting a long term shadow career wise. Seen it happen to more illustrious players, Torres and Barnes for example are easy to cite...

He's tried hard to regain full fitness but the immobility of our midfield is getting exposed a bit on both his and Gerrards part and its been a concern stretching across a couple of seasons now. And like with Johnson and Enrique (we will see about cissokho though), you may need to play him at the moment when fit as he is the main viable option we have for his position but you do wonder if we need to do better in the long run if we want to get back up there
 

rab

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lovepool said:
Lucas is a decent player when he is on form but since his injury he has been off the pace. His tackling has been poor and he lacks the fitnesd or stamina to track opposition midfielders. What games have you been watching that he has played to his top level?
No denying he's not been as good since his injury as he was before his injury but look how long it's taken someone like Ramsey to come back from, an albeit, more serious injury. It can take a long time if ever.

I did however get to watch him live at Anfield against Norwich last year. Everything that bounced off Holt was hoovered up Lucas. Every time they wanted to play in a channel Lucas was covering the pass. Every time we wanted to play it out from defence he was the first person to make himself available. Yes it's just Norwich but that day I thought he was back to his best. That isn't however the Lucas we see every week and im not saying he doesn't have his weaknesses but if we're going to play 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 then a player like Lucas is vital. As we don't have anyone else Rodgers obviously trusts him to do the job there for us.

I'd actually like to see what Lucas is like with someone more mobile next to him, like Henderson, rather than Gerrard. I don't think it's as much an issue with Lucas or Gerrard at the moment but the pairing of the two that isn't working.