Post-Match: Liverpool 0-1 Southampton

lovepool

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Rich agreeing with me, wow!!!!

Lucas should be in his prime now and be one of the senior players who we can rely on in the majority of games. Any top side needs consistent CBs and a consistent DM. Does Lucas dominate game ? Do you see him making strong tackles or showing determination when we are under pressure? For me the answer to these questions is no. Too often he jogs back when players get behind him and he is just so passive all the time. He needs to show more passion and actually look like he wants to work hard.

He needs to greatly improve to get to the level of Alonso Mascherano or Hamann all players who were winners
 

adamc249390

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Rich agreeing with me, wow!!!!

Lucas should be in his prime now and be one of the senior players who we can rely on in the majority of games. Any top side needs consistent CBs and a consistent DM. Does Lucas dominate game ? Do you see him making strong tackles or showing determination when we are under pressure? For me the answer to these questions is no. Too often he jogs back when players get behind him and he is just so passive all the time. He needs to show more passion and actually look like he wants to work hard.

He needs to greatly improve to get to the level of Alonso Mascherano or Hamann all players who were winners[/quote
Spot on, so 1 paced its scary, you can get away with not being athletic if you have the brain and awareness of someone like we had with Gary mc, alonso wasn't blessed with pace but was a step ahead due to his footballing brain
 
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RedRiot

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JoebloggsLFC said:
There we have it, the stat's that back up the observations of a few of us in here & debunked the recent myth that Gerrard is unable to play out the full 90mins.....seem's like Lucas is at fault for dropping off in the second half & that can be seen clearly because Gerrard has been forced to cover his position.....which is why he looks so fucking tired out there lately.

Thankyou for posting this, but of course the debate will rumble on regardless....
Confirmation bias in full effect here. You don't know even how that "stat" is computed and you've taken it as gospel. Looking at it, it looks fairly similar to FIFA numbers. Attack score, defense score, possession score. No mention of methodology, confidence interval, stats used to form those very big aggregate stats, no mention of how they've been weighted or if they've been used in a regression, anything about standard error, nothing. Just some big sums.

According to it, as most pundits would agree, Sylvain Distin has been the 2nd best defender this season. That's the debate sorted.
 

Bobbinho

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RedRiot said:
Confirmation bias in full effect here. You don't know even how that "stat" is computed and you've taken it as gospel. Looking at it, it looks fairly similar to FIFA numbers. Attack score, defense score, possession score. No mention of methodology, confidence interval, stats used to form those very big aggregate stats, no mention of how they've been weighted or if they've been used in a regression, anything about standard error, nothing. Just some big sums.

According to it, as most pundits would agree, Sylvain Distin has been the 2nd best defender this season. That's the debate sorted.
But I don't really need the stat's to confirm what my eye's can see....

Fact is, those Lucas fan's introduced stat's to back up his unbelievably difficult to understand "role" in the team.....you know....the same kind of bullshit that im still hearing in reply to those people who question it.....

Telling people who have watched the game....that they didn't understand it, introducing highly intellectual mathematical analysis the type that you are now rejecting....as actual proof of his ever ambiguous "role".

Nice to have some stats to back up a point though isn't it...? ;)
 
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RedRiot

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JoebloggsLFC said:
Nice to have some stats to back up a point though isn't it...? ;)
When I have some sense of what they mean. I very much doubt you do.
 

Bobbinho

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RedRiot said:
When I have some sense of what they mean. I very much doubt you do.
I understand the principle behind them & why there are used to highlight certain area's of play by way of calculating certain factors involved arriving at a percentage of say pass completion rate....

I have visited that web site before, i don't use stat's to base my argument on...., i alway's base my argument on my observations of the game, which is the only way to gain a full insight into what happens as opposed to a microcosm of one area on it's own, for me its all relative & interdependent, GK performance can effect the backline....the backline can effect the midfield....the midfield can effect both the backline & the attack...& so on....

But yeah, i get it.

Fact that everyone is talking about our midfield means most people understand that we have a problem....don't need stats to work that one out, the debate rumbles on because of the differing views as to who is holding us back, for me that comes down to the Lucas Gerrard partnership which should have been addressed years ago....after Alonso left. We chose to stick with Lucas & the rest is history....
 
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RedRiot

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JoebloggsLFC said:
Fact that everyone is talking about our midfield means most people understand that we have a problem....don't need stats to work that one out, the debate rumbles on because of the differing views as to who is holding us back, for me that comes down to the Lucas Gerrard partnership which should have been addressed years ago....after Alonso left. We chose to stick with Lucas & the rest is history....
As long as you realize they're as meaningful as FIFA player ratings. And has Lucas really been the problem when in reality he replaced Mascherano, and we've often been very good defensively when he's played for us (but dire further forward, as under Hodgson and in Kenny's second season)? Are you blaming our underperormance, which coincided with three managerial changes in 5 years and two changes in ownership in 7, on sticking with Lucas? Big claim.
 

Bobbinho

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RedRiot said:
As long as you realize they're as meaningful as FIFA player ratings. And has Lucas really been the problem when in reality he replaced Mascherano, and we've often been very good defensively when he's played for us (but dire further forward, as under Hodgson and in Kenny's second season)? Are you blaming our underperormance, which coincided with three managerial changes in 5 years and two changes in ownership in 7, on sticking with Lucas? Big claim.
No, but i am blaming our often weak & ineffective midfield on the pairing of Lucas with Gerrard, which has in turn effected our overall level of performance over the years, to what extent though is up for debate, because clearly we have had other issue's to deal with, whether it has been under performing player's, player's who weren't good enough, lack of competition for the GK....a lack of managerial stability new ownership & so on, but actually on the pitch itself.... i think it is true to say that our midfield has been well below par for a number of years....in fact, ever since Xabi left.....
 
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RedRiot

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Well, I don't think anyone would argue that losing a player like Alonso would cripple most teams. We didn't replace him, but Lucas wasn't his "replacement" so if you're trying to include Lucas in your argument about why we've struggled since Alonso left, then it's a bit of a nonsense, isn't it. Makes more sense to blame Aquilani, Meireles, etc.
 

Claymenza

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RedRiot said:
Well, I don't think anyone would argue that losing a player like Alonso would cripple most teams. We didn't replace him, but Lucas wasn't his "replacement" so if you're trying to include Lucas in your argument about why we've struggled since Alonso left, then it's a bit of a nonsense, isn't it. Makes more sense to blame Aquilani, Meireles, etc.
Lucas was never exposed as much under rafa because he was a backup. Alonso also made him look good with his master class.

Aquilani and Meireles were brought in as number 10s but coaching changes meant the balance was wrecked.
Gerrard was meant to replace Alonso deep because we couldn't find someone of similar calibur in the market.

With Mascherano, Alonso, gerrard, benayoun and lucas, we never had an issue with balance. If one benefactor was not available, there would be another who could provide the balance.

There is also the dynamic with the striker. Gerrard is used to having a pure sprinting striker in the form of owen/torres where he can send a through ball. Alonso's passing range also means he can exploit the diagonal lanes, so the striker can assist an on rushing gerrard to finish. When suarez came in to replace torres, he was willing to play the same tactic as he wanted to create and score.

I wonder how rafa managed to pair up lucas and gerrard in the same match in the past. We never had both mascherano/Alonso injured at the same time. The days of having specialists is gone. We need to get used to being well rounded.
 

CARRADONA

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moving on...i think it's a bit of a red herring to blame central midfield players or CM tactics. Any one can blame CM for any lost result because that is usually the busiest part of the field.
It seems to me that we were unable to really get going in the Saints match because of lack of available team mates to pass the ball to when we were in posession. This is turn was due to lack of space/width and movement/pace (& guile). Putting 4 centre backs into a team that is surposed play high pressing tiki-tika style football just doesnt really work...and i am alarmed that BR thought it would.
I hope this is real learning step for BR so we dont attempt this again (at home from kick-off again).
Hopefully Suarez coming back & Martin Kelly edging closer to fitness will go some way to help us sort the situation while GJ and Coutinho get sorted.
 
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RedRiot

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Aquilani was definitely brought in to replace Alonso, and Meireles may have played further forward for us, but he's historically a deeper midfielder. My point is, look at all the players we've brought in to try to replace Alonso. Only last season did we manage to do it with Gerrard. Prior to that it was a host of pretenders. Lucas was never one of them though.
 

lovepool

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RedRiot said:
Aquilani was definitely brought in to replace Alonso, and Meireles may have played further forward for us, but he's historically a deeper midfielder. My point is, look at all the players we've brought in to try to replace Alonso. Only last season did we manage to do it with Gerrard. Prior to that it was a host of pretenders. Lucas was never one of them though.
Aquilani was bought after Alonso left but was not a like for like replacement. Rafa saw the Italian as someone who would play further forward than Alonso and expected him to give us more creativity and goals
 
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RedRiot

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lovepool said:
Aquilani was bought after Alonso left but was not a like for like replacement. Rafa saw the Italian as someone who would play further forward than  Alonso and expected him to give us more creativity and goals 
Well yes, he wasn't intended to play in the exact same fashion, but I would argue that Rafa saw him as someone who could be a deep-lying playmaker, as he certainly had the range and vision. He's played that way often for other teams since he's left. So I would guess that Rafa saw him that way.
 

sportbilly1966

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howhardgerrard said:
Lucas isn't there for his pace he is there to break up the play, receive the ball and deliver it to the playmakers and disrupt the opponents posession and I think today he did a very good job of that. His all round reliabilty to day IMO was excellent and without him we would have been far worse off. You have to look at what a player is there to do and not be critical for things he doesn't do when that is not his role.
To emphasise what i am saying, in the second half Davis (not known for his pace) ran at Lucas and beat him convincingly and Lucas tried to turn and keep with him and couldn't, this wasn't the only one but was the defining one.

Don't get me wrong i rate Lucas, i feel that the style and formation isn't working for Lucas. Lucas looked good pre season when we pressed high, as he is excellent when nicking balls off players with their backs to play, its when players run at him he struggles especially when we aren't compact.

So Brendons tactics are affecting Lucas and if we continue like we are then Lucas's lack of pace is an issue because at the moment our play is breaking down in the middle third and then the team shape isn't set with space for opposition players to turn and get at Lucas.

People are having a go at Lucas's quality on the ball but that could be said for a lot of our players on Saturday, problem seems to be that there is no link player, as Countinho and Allen is injured, between attack and midfield. Yes i have put Allen in there because he is always moving to provide a passing option and keeps the ball so the team can move up the pitch and then set for out high pressing. This lack of link player is really hurting our overall tactics and performance, just look at the difference against Swansea once Coutinho went off!

Hope this helps you understand why Lucas's lack of pace is an issue at the moment, as i said i thought he looked great pre season.
 

lovepool

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RedRiot said:
Well yes, he wasn't intended to play in the exact same fashion, but I would argue that Rafa saw him as someone who could be a deep-lying playmaker, as he certainly had the range and vision. He's played that way often for other teams since he's left. So I would guess that Rafa saw him that way.
Rafa wanted Aquilani further forward and said he had a better killer pass than Alonso. Google it
 
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RedRiot

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lovepool said:
Rafa wanted Aquilani further forward and said he had a better killer pass than Alonso. Google it
Haha, okay. *Googles "Rafa's long-term plans for a 24-year old CM who barely played for him."*
 

Mascot88

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Dane said:
Nothing wrong with making 2 planned changes, that's why we're allowed 3 subs.
But you're not giving yourself any contingency. If we're going to start Enrique and Kelly, knowing neither are fit, and plan to sub them you only have one reactive substitution left.

If that gets taken with an injury, then you have to make a choice - don't make any reactive changes, or leave one of Enrique/Kelly on and pray they don't get injured.

By far the best way to approach this situation is start with fit players and hope they can do a job for you - if it's not going well then make the change - but if they do alright, you have three positive subs you can use.

In addition to this there are two other points.

1. All I heard when we were signing him was how good it was to get Sakho, because he can cover LB - in fact he'll probably take Enrique's place. Now it seems he is a centre back only, and Rodgers was an idiot for thinking he could play on the left.

2. Enrique was shit when he came on anyway. No better than Sakho, and possibly worse.
 

NZred

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RedRiot said:
The only thing that's obvious and without contest is that Lucas is the constant scapegoat when things go wrong when there isn't another one obvious. Having gotten rid of other punching bags like Downing, it's Lucas's turn again. It doesn't matter that our captain has been worse in the last two weeks (substantially so) or that Enrique is a much worse player (he was awful in his cameo today) Lucas seems to be a popular target for irrational frustration, regardless of the reality. It's become so boring and yet it seems some people just can't give it up.
Actuallly having read most of this thread Gerrard has taken a fair amount of bashing too, as has BR. The only reason Lucas seems to be made the scapegoat is because one person mentions he was poor and another argues it vehemently and the discussion goes on for 5 pages compairing him to others. Where as if Gerrard, Or Sturridge, or Henderson is poor people just accept it and there is no further discussion on the matter.

Now as a side note, generally when Monday roles around and we've had a poor result I am more often than not passed it and looking forward to the next match. But not today, not this Monday. We were SO poor against a VERY poor side that we were embarrassed, AT HOME. A place that Rogers has prattled on about making fortress. Looking nothing like the team that plays the Football Rogers, once again, prattles on about. The only way the team makes up for this result is by destroying Sunderland this weekend. But does anyone actually trust the players won't drag the chins on the ground? I don't and will be picking my fantasy team based on Sunderland winning.
 
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RedRiot

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NZred said:
Actuallly having read most of this thread Gerrard has taken a fair amount of bashing too, as has BR. The only reason Lucas seems to be made the scapegoat is because one person mentions he was poor and another argues it vehemently and the discussion goes on for 5 pages compairing him to others. Where as if Gerrard, Or Sturridge, or Henderson is poor people just accept it and there is no further discussion on the matter.
Already had this conversation with Redbj, so I'll be brief, but in this thread the real difference is that people criticize players and it's accepted and people move on, but with Lucas, people call him poor and suggest replacing him with players far below his standard. People bristle at the idea of just dropping Gerrard at all, but replacing Lucas with Scott Parker or Leroy Fer isn't a ridiculous suggestion? The reason these things go on is because the criticism of him is always more extreme than that of other players, and often comes out of nowhere when he hasn't been bad but we've had a bad game.

Anyway, I'm personally on to the next one. We've been hit hard by injuries (6-9 injured/unfit) and while we played poorly, we really only lost because of yet another mental mistake by Skrtel. I'm confident going forward, as I think we'll be well set up against United and I think we are a better team, and then Sunderland are the worst team in the league by a margin, so we should have too much for them. Suarez's return will be huge.
 

zagueiro

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Jeez.

Integral to Rodgers system is having our full backs push up high and add to the attack.......not just integral the full backs are CRUCIAL.

So when we play Southampton with 4 CB's we were always going to have problems. Toure and to a greater extent Sakho added nothing in the attacking third as Johnson and Enrique regulaly do. Aspas is not a no10 - I'm being kind here, he was very poor. Our front line were all over the place, with Moses playing only his second game for us and Sturridge clearly not fit. We are missing our best player -Suarez, and our no10, Coutinho, our link player is out injured.

So in summary, we're missing 4 first teamers, our system is undermined by playing cb's as fb's, we had no attacking midfielder, we were missing our best player and top scorer last season, and todays striker is clearly not fit. So what do posters on here do? Oh I know, they all rag on Lucas, never mind that he won the ball and passed successfully to a team mate more than any other player on our team. Genius!
 

lfc.eddie

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Zaguero I suggest you read from the first 10 or so pages before coming in here throwing tantrums when your favourite player had been a topic of discussion. NZred hit it right on the head about how people defended players. I actually don't see many stood up for other players as much as Lucas. He had a bad game. Can't we accept it?
 

kopite1982

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Jesus sunderland sacked di canio! Get ready for a new manager against us on sunday! Thats all we need! Can see it already
 

Johnny T.

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Zaguerio. Lucas has been poor this season, unable to get meaningful tackles in, unable to maintain possession, unable, at this stage of his career to influence a game. The arguments from his supporters revert to the usual stats, but the reality is so much more vivid. Watching him track opposition players means either huffing puffing runs alongside the player or a stupid mistimed tackle in a dangerous area.

I know, I know my criticism of him is as concrete as your defence, but a bit of honesty please........in his current form, just not good enough.
 

Mascot88

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Johnny T. said:
Zaguerio. Lucas has been poor this season, unable to get meaningful tackles in, unable to maintain possession, unable, at this stage of his career to influence a game. The arguments from his supporters revert to the usual stats, but the reality is so much more vivid. Watching him track opposition players means either huffing puffing runs alongside the player or a stupid mistimed tackle in a dangerous area.
I know, I know my criticism of him is as concrete as your defence, but a bit of honesty please........in his current form, just not good enough.
I love a good cynical foul, so I have little complaint when Lucas sticks his foot in.

Aside from that I don't think it's fair to say he can't retain possession or get a tackle in - don't think there's a problem there. I just think he's lost a huge amount of natural fitness post injury, and he struggles with the pace in midfield. Noticeable from about 50mins, when his - to that point usually pretty good - performance massively declines.
 

NZred

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Didn't anyone ever envisage, despite his defending at times being questionable, just how important GJ is to the balance of the team? He allows the RW to drop in field or push a little further forward in the knowledge that Johnson is always on the white chalk up the fielding providing an out option or some additional width to stretch the defense.
 
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RedRiot

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Can't keep possession or get a meaningful tackle in and yet his passing percentage stats and tackle stats lead the team. If objective reality doesn't work for you, I can understand, but I don't know what those stats indicate beyond that he is good at maintaining possession and getting meaningful tackles in. There are a lot of other criticisms you could make that can't be demonstrated to be wrong, but those aren't two.

For reference: http://www.whoscored.com/Teams/26

Easy to see who's good at what in the team. Lucas leads the team (and league, along with Ramsey) in tackles and tackles per match (up near the top in the league) and in passing percentage and passes completed (more than Gerrard even). Gerrard is the only non-defensive player who has attempted more than 12 long passes (in fact only he and Mignolet have attempted over 20), and has completed 31 of 49. Henderson 11 of 11. Lucas 7 of 9. Gerrard has 12 key passes, Aspas 7, Coutinho 6, Henderson 5, Lucas 3, Moses 3, Toure 2.
 

kwala

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Mascot88 said:
I love a good cynical foul, so I have little complaint when Lucas sticks his foot in.

Aside from that I don't think it's fair to say he can't retain possession or get a tackle in - don't think there's a problem there. I just think he's lost a huge amount of natural fitness post injury, and he struggles with the pace in midfield. Noticeable from about 50mins, when his - to that point usually pretty good - performance massively declines.
Could have ALOT to do with the FACT he is the only player that presses the fucking ball. I'd imagine he is fucked after about an hour. It must be good damn hard work and soul destroying in equal measures when you are the ONLY player pressing the opposition high up the pitch.

Personally I am fucking sick of watching us drop off and watch the opposition pass the ball about for fun. The entire front line needs to press up as a unit, and the midfield needs to push up as a fucking unit against the opposition midfield to stop them playing it into them with no bloody pressure whatsoever.

When was the last time we saw us pressing the opposition? Southampton gave a bloody master class in it, and it is 100% the reason they won the game. We were under all sorts of pressure trying to pass the ball out from the back, and never got our passing game going as a result.

Watch the first half again. Lucas was our ONLY player winning the ball by pressing the opposition.

Lucas wasn't good yesterday, BUT, ONLY lucas, Henderson and Toure offered anything of the outfield players. The rest were BEYOND shit.

How come we had 4 fucking CB's on the pitch, and we concede from a bloody header 5 yards out and between the sticks? Fuck it Blame Lucas.

PS this wasn't a rant aimed at you mascot, I just seemed to go off on one after reading page after page of utter shite!
 

NZred

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kwala said:
Could have ALOT to do with the FACT he is the only player that presses the fucking ball. I'd imagine he is fucked after about an hour. It must be good damn hard work and soul destroying in equal measures when you are the ONLY player pressing the opposition high up the pitch.

Personally I am fucking sick of watching us drop off and watch the opposition pass the ball about for fun. The entire front line needs to press up as a unit, and the midfield needs to push up as a fucking unit against the opposition midfield to stop them playing it into them with no bloody pressure whatsoever.

When was the last time we saw us pressing the opposition? Southampton gave a bloody master class in it, and it is 100% the reason they won the game. We were under all sorts of pressure trying to pass the ball out from the back, and never got our passing game going as a result.

Watch the first half again. Lucas was our ONLY player winning the ball by pressing the opposition.

Lucas wasn't good yesterday, BUT, ONLY lucas, Henderson and Toure offered anything of the outfield players. The rest were BEYOND shit.

How come we had 4 fucking CB's on the pitch, and we concede from a bloody header 5 yards out and between the sticks? Fuck it Blame Lucas.

PS this wasn't a rant aimed at you mascot, I just seemed to go off on one after reading page after page of utter shite!
How to agree re pressing the ball. Didn't Rogers wank on and on about us having the ball back within 7 seconds? Fuck me, we struggle to KEEP it for 7 seconds let alone get it back. There was a period there over the weekend where in the 85th minute Southampton were toying with us, passing the ball around for fun. Why is it every team can look brilliant against us?