Post-Match: Liverpool 0-1 Southampton

kwala

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NZred said:
How to agree re pressing the ball. Didn't Rogers wank on and on about us having the ball back within 7 seconds? Fuck me, we struggle to KEEP it for 7 seconds let alone get it back. There was a period there over the weekend where in the 85th minute Southampton were toying with us, passing the ball around for fun. Why is it every team can look brilliant against us?
Because we give them time and space on the ball. That is why we conversely looked so shockingly shit, Southampton defended from the front as a team. We just dropped off and watched them, bar Lucas.
 

NZred

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kwala said:
Could have ALOT to do with the FACT he is the only player that presses the fucking ball. I'd imagine he is fucked after about an hour. It must be good damn hard work and soul destroying in equal measures when you are the ONLY player pressing the opposition high up the pitch.

Personally I am fucking sick of watching us drop off and watch the opposition pass the ball about for fun. The entire front line needs to press up as a unit, and the midfield needs to push up as a fucking unit against the opposition midfield to stop them playing it into them with no bloody pressure whatsoever.

When was the last time we saw us pressing the opposition? Southampton gave a bloody master class in it, and it is 100% the reason they won the game. We were under all sorts of pressure trying to pass the ball out from the back, and never got our passing game going as a result.

Watch the first half again. Lucas was our ONLY player winning the ball by pressing the opposition.

Lucas wasn't good yesterday, BUT, ONLY lucas, Henderson and Toure offered anything of the outfield players. The rest were BEYOND shit.

How come we had 4 fucking CB's on the pitch, and we concede from a bloody header 5 yards out and between the sticks? Fuck it Blame Lucas.

PS this wasn't a rant aimed at you mascot, I just seemed to go off on one after reading page after page of utter shite!
I think you could be over blowing it a bit mate. As said above just about everyone has been lambusted for that display, the team selection, poor marking for the goal, Gerrard, Sakho, Aspas, they've all been given a good amount of bashing. But for some reason people feel this need to stick up Lucas when he gets hit too, he was poor yesterday. He may have chased the ball, but that's his job and seemingly the only one he can do with regularity. He gave the ball away too much, like previous weeks. Gerrard was terrible, that's one of the worst matches I've seen from him in ages and Aspas again looked to be playing in a league 10 steps above his level.
 

Poor Scouser Tommy

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NZred said:
Didn't anyone ever envisage, despite his defending at times being questionable, just how important GJ is to the balance of the team? He allows the RW to drop in field or push a little further forward in the knowledge that Johnson is always on the white chalk up the fielding providing an out option or some additional width to stretch the defense.
Yep, some of us did!
 

Mascot88

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kwala said:
PS this wasn't a rant aimed at you mascot, I just seemed to go off on one after reading page after page of utter shite!
We're very much on the same side of this debate :)
 

NZred

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Poor Scouser Tommy said:
Yep, some of us did!
You all kept it pretty quiet then because in the 7 years I've been posting on here and the 4 years he has been with the club I haven't seen a single post about how important he is to the overall attacking balance of this team.
 

Defuz

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After a lousy game I keep looking at the title of this thread and expect it to be 'Post-Mortem, Liverpool.....'
 

Mascot88

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NZred said:
You all kept it pretty quiet then because in the 7 years I've been posting on here and the 4 years he has been with the club I haven't seen a single post about how important he is to the overall attacking balance of this team.
Did you miss that summer when everyone decided that Johnson should play on the right of the attacking three?
 

NZred

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Mascot88 said:
Did you miss that summer when everyone decided that Johnson should play on the right of the attacking three?
No no, I remember that, I was ONE of those people. But I was more meaning how important he is from the RB position to our attacking intent.
 

Poor Scouser Tommy

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kwala said:
Could have ALOT to do with the FACT he is the only player that presses the fucking ball. I'd imagine he is fucked after about an hour. It must be good damn hard work and soul destroying in equal measures when you are the ONLY player pressing the opposition high up the pitch.

Personally I am fucking sick of watching us drop off and watch the opposition pass the ball about for fun. The entire front line needs to press up as a unit, and the midfield needs to push up as a fucking unit against the opposition midfield to stop them playing it into them with no bloody pressure whatsoever.

When was the last time we saw us pressing the opposition? Southampton gave a bloody master class in it, and it is 100% the reason they won the game. We were under all sorts of pressure trying to pass the ball out from the back, and never got our passing game going as a result.

Watch the first half again. Lucas was our ONLY player winning the ball by pressing the opposition.

Lucas wasn't good yesterday, BUT, ONLY lucas, Henderson and Toure offered anything of the outfield players. The rest were BEYOND shit.

How come we had 4 fucking CB's on the pitch, and we concede from a bloody header 5 yards out and between the sticks? Fuck it Blame Lucas.

PS this wasn't a rant aimed at you mascot, I just seemed to go off on one after reading page after page of utter shite!
The Saints applied pressure in our third and as a result, our game-plan collapsed. Mignolet has proved to be a reliable shot-stopper, but he is not particularly good at distributing the ball.

What worries me most is that if Southampton has figured out Mignolet's weakness, then every other team in the league will have done so.
 
R

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Might indeed be a worry. Only 22/87 of his long hits, 53/118 overall passes have been accurate. Less than half of his passes have been successful. Compare to that at random Vorm, who has attempted many fewer passes and about 50 fewer long goal kicks/clearances, and has a nearly 70% completion rate. I thought coming in that he was a bit better at that side of his game, but clearly he's not getting the options or the time to make a good early pass. You can't even say it's from instruction, as he usually looks to go short before he goes long. Need to sort that out. Maybe he just needs even more options, so perhaps we need to drop two midfielders back for the time being until he becomes more comfortable finding the quick option.
 

Poor Scouser Tommy

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NZred said:
You all kept it pretty quiet then because in the 7 years I've been posting on here and the 4 years he has been with the club I haven't seen a single post about how important he is to the overall attacking balance of this team.
NZred said:
No no, I remember that, I was ONE of those people. But I was more meaning how important he is from the RB position to our attacking intent.
If that's the case, I suppose you've not read this article (specifically the penultimate paragraph).

http://www.thisisanfield.com/2013/09/glen-johnson-injury-update/
 

Poor Scouser Tommy

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RedRiot said:
I thought coming in that he was a bit better at that side of his game, but clearly he's not getting the options or the time to make a good early pass. You can't even say it's from instruction, as he usually looks to go short before he goes long.
I agree with you, to a certain degree.

He's likely to tap the ball to a defender who has no option but to immediately pass the ball back to him, due to the fact that our opponents have flooded into our third of the field.

This tactic often results in our GK and CBs frantically passing the ball back-and-forth or trying to dribble past opposition attackers.

It seems the problem stems not from a lack of options or time though. Instead, he simply appears to be indecisive.


RedRiot said:
Maybe he just needs even more options, so perhaps we need to drop two midfielders back for the time being until he becomes more comfortable finding the quick option.
I'm not so sure that would solve our problem.

As it stands, our CBs and FBs surely can't be convinced that the ball will make it to their feet while they're in open space. If we have to make two midfielders drop back in order to protect our 'keeper, we may be forced to play only counter-attacking football.
 

Poor Scouser Tommy

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NZred said:
He cannot return soon enough for mine.
I hear you mate.

I'd almost forgotten that we had such a lack of talent at RB. Anybody remember Bale vs Skrtel in September 2011? :unsure:
 

NZred

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Poor Scouser Tommy said:
I hear you mate.

I'd almost forgotten that we had such a lack of talent at RB. Anybody remember Bale vs Skrtel in September 2011? :unsure:
I remember Skrtel getting absolutely rapped against Boro and Rafa refusing to switch Carragher across. Think we lost 2-0 and it was the season we finish 2nd. The result that cocked up the title for us IMO.

Kelly, for all his promise I don't ever see progressing, in fact I think he will be sold in 12-18 months simply due to injuries. Reminds me of Michael Bridges.
 

Poor Scouser Tommy

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NZred said:
I remember Skrtel getting absolutely rapped against Boro and Rafa refusing to switch Carragher across. Think we lost 2-0 and it was the season we finish 2nd. The result that cocked up the title for us IMO.

Kelly, for all his promise I don't ever see progressing, in fact I think he will be sold in 12-18 months simply due to injuries. Reminds me of Michael Bridges.

I've always blamed our 2nd spot in 08/09 on the almost alliterative Aston Villa and Andrey Arshavin in April.

(Villa lost 3-2 to Man U, after being 1-2 up at 79 minutes and Arshavin... well, I'm sure you remember that game).

I must agree with you regarding Kelly. It's a shame, but the chances are fairly slim that he'll be able to permanently shake off his injury problems and fulfill his potential.
 

NZred

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Poor Scouser Tommy said:
I've always blamed our 2nd spot in 08/09 on the almost alliterative Aston Villa and Andrey Arshavin in April.

(Villa lost 3-2 to Man U, after being 1-2 up at 79 minutes and Arshavin... well, I'm sure you remember that game).

I must agree with you regarding Kelly. It's a shame, but the chances are fairly slim that he'll be able to permanently shake off his injury problems and fulfill his potential.
The Villa game, oh boy. I just about bloody cried in that game. Wasn't it a bullsht penalty that turned that game too? Spurs were 2-0 at OT as well and lost too. Plus the Stoke game at anfield that finished 0-0 and Alonso had a perfectly legitimate goal ruled out from a FK. No one new what it was for. If ever there was a season that showed Fungus influence over officials, it was that one.
 

Mascot88

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NZred said:
The Villa game, oh boy. I just about bloody cried in that game. Wasn't it a bullsht penalty that turned that game too? Spurs were 2-0 at OT as well and lost too. Plus the Stoke game at anfield that finished 0-0 and Alonso had a perfectly legitimate goal ruled out from a FK. No one new what it was for. If ever there was a season that showed Fungus influence over officials, it was that one.
It was Gerrard I think - ruled out for offside?

The amount of injury time that Ferguson got that year was simply staggering. It's ashamed cos we were by far the best team in the league that season.
 

Sound as a Pound

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outplayed for periods of the game at home against southamption - just shows how far they have come and how far we have fallen - this isnt anything new this season either - all performances have been critical even when we have won...and having not resolved certain issues in improving the squad in the summer will take its toll
 

rab

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NZred said:
I think you could be over blowing it a bit mate. As said above just about everyone has been lambusted for that display, the team selection, poor marking for the goal, Gerrard, Sakho, Aspas, they've all been given a good amount of bashing. But for some reason people feel this need to stick up Lucas when he gets hit too, he was poor yesterday. He may have chased the ball, but that's his job and seemingly the only one he can do with regularity. He gave the ball away too much, like previous weeks. Gerrard was terrible, that's one of the worst matches I've seen from him in ages and Aspas again looked to be playing in a league 10 steps above his level.
Lucas had 43 successful passes out of 45 passes against Southampton. Twice he gave the ball away compared to Gerrard's 8 unsuccessful passes. Week before against Swansea he misplaced 5 out of 65 compared to Gerrard's 11 failed passes out of 54. Against Utd both gave the ball away 9 times.

It's comments like "he gave the ball away too much, like previous weeks" that make me think people have a pre-conceived idea about Lucas rather than actually watching what happens. He wasn't great yesterday but he was far from the main reason we lost and it certainly wasn't because he gave the ball away too much.
 

Dane

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That's a very selective comparison, and not one I like to see.
Gerrard and Lucas attempt passes which are at the extreme ends of difficulty.

One of Lucas' roles once in possession is to instantly pass it to one of the more offensive and creative players, meaning that many of his passes are very short and to someone completely unmarked
Not knocking him for that btw, it's part of his job to do that

Gerrard attempts longer, more difficult passes, often into a space he'd like a runner to get on the end of.
He does misplace some, no argument there, but often a runner doesn't read or latch onto the pass, or is flagged offside.

Too simplistic in my opinion to boast that Lucas has a higher pass success rate.
 

rab

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Dane said:
That's a very selective comparison, and not one I like to see.
Gerrard and Lucas attempt passes which are at the extreme ends of difficulty.

One of Lucas' roles once in possession is to instantly pass it to one of the more offensive and creative players, meaning that many of his passes are very short and to someone completely unmarked
Not knocking him for that btw, it's part of his job to do that

Gerrard attempts longer, more difficult passes, often into a space he'd like a runner to get on the end of.
He does misplace some, no argument there, but often a runner doesn't read or latch onto the pass, or is flagged offside.

Too simplistic in my opinion to boast that Lucas has a higher pass success rate.
Yes Gerrard makes more difficult passes so you'd expect his pass completion stats to be lower but the point I was trying to highlight was that stating "Lucas gave the ball away too much, like previous weeks" is just incorrect. In fact he rarely gives the ball away but people's perceptions are quite different from the facts and you have to wonder why that is.

I only used a comparison to Gerrard to show someone who gives the ball away more (not always long Hollywood passes) who doesn't cop the stick Lucas does. It was perhaps unfair but I could have compared Lucas's pass stats to Wanyama or Schniederlin who play in a more similar way to Lucas and Lucas would still have come out on top.
 

Quagmire81

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RedRiot said:
Well yes, he wasn't intended to play in the exact same fashion, but I would argue that Rafa saw him as someone who could be a deep-lying playmaker, as he certainly had the range and vision. He's played that way often for other teams since he's left. So I would guess that Rafa saw him that way.
Your right, but you forget that he never actually got the change to play that role, He was bought injured which meant Lucas played next to mascherano, and Aquilani's injure dragged out til the end of the season, and we been playing so shit that we were desperatly holding on the last change of getting CL spot when he was fit again, and Rafa wouldn't risk playing him, I remember him saying that in a press conf. so he kept playing lucas from start with masch which all season didn't work out, and yes we missed out on CL, rafa got fired, and Roy came in and loaned out Aquilani, kenny also when he took over.
So basicly Lucas WAS Xabi's replacement. Then Mascherano left, and we were stuck with lucas whom then was groomed into his role cause he clearly wasn't good enough to do Xabi's job. Stevie was then groomed into that role and we lost out on his match winning role he had under Rafa. And the struggle between them started as some second rate Xabi/Masch CM pair, which never have worked and I'm surprised we still til this day try to get it to work cause it'll never happen.
 

WrongIslander

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Most worrying was the complete lack of urgency in the second half. At least against Swansea we were trying to hold a lead, this time we were 1-0 down and still playing like we had something to hold on to. No excuses, quality wise we were poor but as worrying tactically and mentally we were poor. The only players trying to drive the play I could see was Toure and Gerrard rarely towards the end.

In the end they were unlucky not to score more and we were flattered by 0.
 

RedLaw

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Looks like my internet crapped out on me just at the right time. Only got to watch highlights of the game on MOTD, missed all of the post-mortem.

Was gutted when I heard the result, but come on guys, it's only one game. We've got to keep things in perspective. The last time we lost in the league before Saturday was in March. Fair enough I thought our tactics were naive but we can't expect to win every game. Plus, lets not forget, we have Suarez to come back.

Things could be worse at least.... we could be United fans afterall ;)
 

koptician

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Mascot88 said:
It was Gerrard I think - ruled out for offside?

The amount of injury time that Ferguson got that year was simply staggering. It's ashamed cos we were by far the best team in the league that season.
Stoke at home, Dirk was NOT offside. Spurs away, Carra own goal and then we didn't shut up shop for the draw. Boro away, I've heard that it was Carra who refused to play at RB so Rafa was forced to up Skrtel there.

And Mancs luckily had Macheda pop up and score at least three crucial point-winning goals and he has done sweet f.a. ever since.

Not meant to happen I guess :(
 

NZred

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rab said:
Lucas had 43 successful passes out of 45 passes against Southampton. Twice he gave the ball away compared to Gerrard's 8 unsuccessful passes. Week before against Swansea he misplaced 5 out of 65 compared to Gerrard's 11 failed passes out of 54. Against Utd both gave the ball away 9 times.

It's comments like "he gave the ball away too much, like previous weeks" that make me think people have a pre-conceived idea about Lucas rather than actually watching what happens. He wasn't great yesterday but he was far from the main reason we lost and it certainly wasn't because he gave the ball away too much.
You're comparing a player who gives the ball straight to another midfielders, or the LB/RB against one that will look to instigate a break down field, or switch play 50-60 yards with one pass, or split the defense open? Really?

Passes is one thing, but I remember him getting TACKLED with the ball a few times too. Look this debate is tiring, I have not singled out Lucas as the one sole rubbish player, nor am I blaming him for the result. My opinion is that he simply doesn't fit into our game given the style of play Rogers wants, I would like to see Henderson given the chance, he has to be the fittest player in the league so can cover a fair amount of ground. Is a better ball player all around and so might offer a little something more when we look for the fast counter.
 

EdWood

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A chronic lack of squad depth (lack of owner investment) was the root cause of this atrocity. The only positions we have/had any adequate cover for are the CB, LB and LW/LMF ones.
  • Mignolet: no cover
  • Johnson: no cover.
  • Lucas: no cover
  • Gerrard: no cover
  • Coutinho: no cover
  • Sturridge: no cover
  • Suarez: no cover
  • RW/RMF: no cover whatsoever.
  • CM enforcer: does not exist.
Read it and weep.

But for the predatory instincts of Daniel Sturridge, we would have had zero wins this season because we've been playing pretty indifferently so far in all our games - except the Southampton one, in which we were awful.
 

ptt

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EdWood said:
A chronic lack of squad depth (lack of owner investment) was the root cause of this atrocity. The only positions we have/had any adequate cover for are the CB, LB and LW/LMF ones.
  • Mignolet: no cover
  • Johnson: no cover.
  • Lucas: no cover
  • Gerrard: no cover
  • Coutinho: no cover
  • Sturridge: no cover
  • Suarez: no cover
  • RW/RMF: no cover whatsoever.
  • CM enforcer: does not exist.
Read it and weep.

But for the predatory instincts of Daniel Sturridge, we would have had zero wins this season because we've been playing pretty indifferently so far in all our games - except the Southampton one, in which we were awful.
I'm already having an awful week, this week almost had me in tears, AGAIN!