Post-Match: Liverpool 0-1 Southampton

Mascot88

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ptt said:
I'm already having an awful week, this week almost had me in tears, AGAIN!
Don't weep - it's a massive exaggeration.

Allen, Henderson, Moses, Aspas, Alberto, Sterling, Ibe, Kelly, Jones and Wisdom haven't occurred to him.

I'm not saying the options are bountiful, but it's not true to say there is no cover for two thirds of the team.
 

SoueysTash

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I think the point is more about BR actually playing the backup players and trusting in them. Alberto for instance this weekend, nailed on for a starter with Coutinho out, didn't get a look in as a starter

I'd like to see Sterling actually start a game - it's very very difficult for a young player to come on and do something good in 15/20 mins...

BR does appear to have issues with balance, he re-dresses it when he sees it, but it seems to take him time to do so.
 

bes

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Mascot88 said:
Don't weep - it's a massive exaggeration.

Allen, Henderson, Moses, Aspas, Alberto, Sterling, Ibe, Kelly, Jones and Wisdom haven't occurred to him.

I'm not saying the options are bountiful, but it's not true to say there is no cover for two thirds of the team.
No hate but all those guys bar Moses/Hendo/Sterling arent good enough to play for us right now. If an injury occurs to any starter its not like we'll be able to say oh our depth with Ibe will be sufficient. Half that list should be on loan but our depth cant allow it...
 

Mascot88

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SoueysTash said:
I think the point is more about BR actually playing the backup players and trusting in them. Alberto for instance this weekend, nailed on for a starter with Coutinho out, didn't get a look in as a starter

I'd like to see Sterling actually start a game - it's very very difficult for a young player to come on and do something good in 15/20 mins...

BR does appear to have issues with balance, he re-dresses it when he sees it, but it seems to take him time to do so.
There are a few things he needs to do, in no particular order

- pin down his starting CB pair, and play them week in week out. We can't keep chopping and changing in this position. If he wants to make the call that it's Toure/Sakho, then so be it. I'd support his right to do that.

- find a role for Henderson. He is clearly the 'engine' of this team and Rodger's is going to ruin him if he doesn't get him in the centre where he can use those legs to compensate those that haven't got their own.

- on a related point, make a fucking decision about Gerrard and Lucas. We can't rely on that as a two man midfield. So it's either break it up, or get another man in there.

- Sort out his formation. He's got 433 players, and yet is reluctant to use it.
bes said:
No hate but all those guys bar Moses/Hendo/Sterling arent good enough to play for us right now. If an injury occurs to any starter its not like we'll be able to say oh our depth with Ibe will be sufficient. Half that list should be on loan but our depth cant allow it...
I'm not making a judgement call on the quality/readiness of those options, just pointing out that it's disingenuous to claim no cover exists for two thirds of the first team.
 

Bobbinho

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SoueysTash said:
I think the point is more about BR actually playing the backup players and trusting in them. Alberto for instance this weekend, nailed on for a starter with Coutinho out, didn't get a look in as a starter

I'd like to see Sterling actually start a game - it's very very difficult for a young player to come on and do something good in 15/20 mins...

BR does appear to have issues with balance, he re-dresses it when he sees it, but it seems to take him time to do so.
True, but in fairness he has lost a player a game almost with injuries since our first game....up til now.. its been a case of finding cover whilst keeping the right balance....bit of a juggling act really which is far from ideal as he needs time to implement his changes & the new player's need time to settle....

Consequently we have not settled into our game at all, we've all seen games under BR where we have looked sharp, pressed high up the pitch & showed sign's of definite progression, creating goal scoring opportunities & holding onto the ball, atm we seem very unsettled, which is a concern naturally but it is still early day's, we're up in the top 5 just 2 points behind the leader's with a run of winnable fixtures ahead, dissapointed with how things are panning out thus far but there are mitigating factors at play.

Would like to see a bit more fight from our players also...
 

SoueysTash

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Mascot88 said:
There are a few things he needs to do, in no particular order

- pin down his starting CB pair, and play them week in week out. We can't keep chopping and changing in this position. If he wants to make the call that it's Toure/Sakho, then so be it. I'd support his right to do that.

- find a role for Henderson. He is clearly the 'engine' of this team and Rodger's is going to ruin him if he doesn't get him in the centre where he can use those legs to compensate those that haven't got their own.

- on a related point, make a fucking decision about Gerrard and Lucas. We can't rely on that as a two man midfield. So it's either break it up, or get another man in there.

- Sort out his formation. He's got 433 players, and yet is reluctant to use it.
Don't know what to do about the CB position, think we kind of shot ourselves in the foot making Dagger VC - whilst deserved for his continued loyalty, he's the one looking most likely to lose his spot at the moment. Skrtel has been immense since he came back in the team.

Totally agree about Henderson. I'd love to see Henderson doing a job and taking over from Lucas, pull Gerrard off for Lucas later in the game to hold onto our lead. Just don't think Lucas has shown enough quality to be left in the first team side so far, not writing him off, but maybe he's another squad member who is 'too safe'

Think the 4-3-3 will be back when Suarez returns against Manure on Weds
 

koptician

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Poor Scouser Tommy said:
Yep, some of us did!
We better start thinking of a long-term replacement for him or get a more complete attacking/defending LB to do what he does, but on the left. He's 29 and his injuries will only keep getting more frequent.
 

Mascot88

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SoueysTash said:
Don't know what to do about the CB position, think we kind of shot ourselves in the foot making Dagger VC - whilst deserved for his continued loyalty, he's the one looking most likely to lose his spot at the moment. Skrtel has been immense since he came back in the team.

Totally agree about Henderson. I'd love to see Henderson doing a job and taking over from Lucas, pull Gerrard off for Lucas later in the game to hold onto our lead. Just don't think Lucas has shown enough quality to be left in the first team side so far, not writing him off, but maybe he's another squad member who is 'too safe'

Think the 4-3-3 will be back when Suarez returns against Manure on Weds
I don't it makes any sense to play Skrtel - we know Rodgers doesn't rate him, he is very uncomfortable don the ball, and he pulls the defensive line back - increasing the space that Lucas and Gerrard have to control. I also think he is too quick to go back to Mignolet, who usually has no option but to punt it.

I know it sounds harsh, because he's been, on the whole, pretty good. But playing him as a first choice defender is just delaying the inevitable breaking up of any partnership he is involved with. I'd play Toure and Sakho - they just make the most sense considering the football Rodger's wants to play. Get them in, get the line further up the pitch and get them both bringing the ball into midfield, and finding Lucas and Gerrard so they can do their thing.

My preference in midfield would be to play a three with Henderson. Since I'm playing fantasy football...



When we go for that suddenly, on paper, we have a very good side, and when you seeit set out like that a good amount of depth - Alberto and Allen can come into the midfield three, Moses, Aspas, Sterling and Ibe can sort into the front three. The principles are:

1) a better balanced midfield, with Henderson supporting Lucas and Gerrard - and the Captain, as the most potent attacker of the three, playing furthest forward, where he can join the attacks from deep. Henderson too should have the legs to be a late arrival into the box.

2) a front line of Suarez, Coutinho and Sturridge has the capacity to do a lot of damage, be unpredictable and beat players.

3) Toure and Sakho bringing the ball into midfield and creating a platform for them.

4) With the width and overlap being provided by the full backs we'll be vulnerable to counters down the flanks, but I'll always fancy Toure and Sakho to mop up in the box and be the first to anything coming in from wide. That's surely why Rodger's bought them.
 

Dane

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So the reason Gerrard and Lucas have been poor the last 2 games, and the fact Mignolet is pretty shit with the ball at his feet, is at least partly down to Skrtel?
 

Mascot88

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Dane said:
So the reason Gerrard and Lucas have been poor the last 2 games, and the fact Mignolet is pretty shit with the ball at his feet, is at least partly down to Skrtel?
The fact that Mignolet is uncomfortable with the ball at his feet is down to Mignolet. The fact that Skrtel keeps giving it to him under pressure is down to Skrtel.
 

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Dane said:
So the reason Gerrard and Lucas have been poor the last 2 games, and the fact Mignolet is pretty shit with the ball at his feet, is at least partly down to Skrtel?
Mascot88 said:
The fact that Mignolet is uncomfortable with the ball at his feet is down to Mignolet. The fact that Skrtel keeps giving it to him under pressure is down to Skrtel.
I agree with this. Nothing worse than a back-line not having clear passing lanes to push out of the back and are forced to play the ball back to the GK to have him punt it up the pitch. Breakdown of midfield causes all of this. No support to wings from the middle, ball gets pushed backwards to CB, punt from GK. How many times did we see this last two weeks.

My personal favorite was the throw-in from the opposition corner flag being played all the way back to Mignolet. I remember thinking to myself, "What the f*** is that ??"
 

lfc.eddie

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I think that's some sort of instructions from the manager though. Defenders instinct is to punt or clear under pressure. Only those team who claims playing ball on the ground, possession and tiki-taka football would use keeper as an outlet to dictate tempo and start play from the back.

Can't blame Skrtel as we can't blame Wisdom in the game against Swansea to retreat and do a back pass to keeper. We opted for more agile and good reflex, younger, shot stopping keeper. Rather than a more experience, lack of form, older, but bloody good with the ball and distribution keeper. So we have to live with it.

What was it the manager claims last season? Our opponent plays with 10 footballers and a goalkeeper, we play with 11 footbalers? Something along those lines...
Can't always be blaming Skrtel.
 

Mascot88

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Dane said:
Even if it deflects any blame from Brendan or Lucas?
You sure about that?
Why do you have to polarize debates like this?

Because I picked out a problem with Skrtels game, doesn't mean I'm blaming him got everything.

Rodgers keeps picking Skrtel despite him being wholly unsuited to the way Rodgers wants his defence to play - doesn't that imply I lay some of the blame at his door?
 

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Mascot88 said:
Why do you have to polarize debates like this?

Because I picked out a problem with Skrtels game, doesn't mean I'm blaming him got everything.

Rodgers keeps picking Skrtel despite him being wholly unsuited to the way Rodgers wants his defence to play - doesn't that imply I lay some of the blame at his door?
In the same vein, Rodgers also wants keepers who can play a bit (see vorm), so you could make an argument that he's unsuited as well. He's preached about keeping possession, and so that requires our goalkeeper to receive the ball under pressure at times, something he'll have to learn to deal with.

For me it's hard to fault Skrtel for something that Brendan teaches.
 
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Skrtel's likely to be sold in January. He's only been in the last three matches and mostly out of necessity. I don't know that I'd expect to see him much after the injury crisis at the back lets up. Toure, Agger and Sakho are all better on the ball and have a lot more game intelligence. I fear for Martin's ability to choose a meal when there are people waiting on him given how he reacts to pressure. The goal we conceded against Southampton was a combination of mistakes from Toure and Skrtel, but really, Skrtel should have been able to make a decision with the initial pass back to him from Toure rather than seemingly freezing up and letting it go between his legs and into their possession. It's been a constant problem with him, from that backpass against City last season onward. He just doesn't cope well under pressure when the ball comes to him. He's a pretty good defender without the ball (although even there, he's not particularly good at tracking runners, particularly on corners) but with it, and under any kind of pressure, he's a liability. On top of that, he drops incredibly deep and rarely carries the ball out of defense to any great effect.

You might be able to say the same for Mignolet, yes, but it's a small sample at this point and a short time working in the system for a young player (particularly in his position). He's shown he has ample qualities to make up for it that win us games and points. Skrtel hasn't done that consistently under Rodgers. I don't see a problem with saying that Skrtel's not suited to Rodgers style of play. It's quite obvious he doesn't think so as he went out and bought 3 CBs this summer who better fit his style and his concept of how he wants center backs to play. He may play tomorrow with Agger still out and problems at right back forcing Kolo out there, but I don't know that I'd expect Skrtel to feature much beyond that. He's been a good to great player for us at times, but it's time for him to move on. 6 years is a long time at a club.
 

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RedRiot said:
He's a pretty good defender without the ball (although even there, he's not particularly good at tracking runners, particularly on corners) but with it, and under any kind of pressure, he's a liability.
Good analysis.

Actually, to elaborate on your points, he's had a few cracking moments in the last few games which may have gained or at least saved points for us, including, but not limited to:

- Challenging Wilfried Bony in a 50/50 right in front of our unprotected goal at 37:58. He put his body on the line and denied Swansea what should have been an easy goal

- Against ManU, he held the ball securely while his team-mates looked for space and passed the ball with accuracy and crispness. He even made a few threatening runs into the oppositions half.
 

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Mascot88 said:
The fact that Mignolet is uncomfortable with the ball at his feet is down to Mignolet. The fact that Skrtel keeps giving it to him under pressure is down to Skrtel.
The fact that Skrtel keeps giving it to Mignolet is down to Lucas not offering him an option in front.

Easy this isn't it?

As for Skrtel not being good at tracking runners...not the Skrtel I've been watching. Enrique and Johnson are poor for this and Agger is the worst of our centre backs for letting people run off him.
 

rab

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NZred said:
You're comparing a player who gives the ball straight to another midfielders, or the LB/RB against one that will look to instigate a break down field, or switch play 50-60 yards with one pass, or split the defense open? Really?

Passes is one thing, but I remember him getting TACKLED with the ball a few times too. Look this debate is tiring, I have not singled out Lucas as the one sole rubbish player, nor am I blaming him for the result. My opinion is that he simply doesn't fit into our game given the style of play Rogers wants, I would like to see Henderson given the chance, he has to be the fittest player in the league so can cover a fair amount of ground. Is a better ball player all around and so might offer a little something more when we look for the fast counter.
Rodgers has had three windows to buy someone else to replace or even compete with Lucas for that spot. He hasn't. You might not think he fits into the style of play Rodgers wants but it's clear Rodgers thinks he does. Unless you know more about the way Rodgers wants to play than the man does himself I think it's safe to assume Lucas fits.

If you want to find stats for him getting tackled then fine but the point was he gave the ball away lots. He doesn't, he's the water carrier that allows more creative players to focus on what they do best. Same way Mikel allows Chelsea to get the best out of the attacking talent in front of him and countless other players do for their sides too.
 

Quagmire81

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rab said:
Rodgers has had three windows to buy someone else to replace or even compete with Lucas for that spot. He hasn't. You might not think he fits into the style of play Rodgers wants but it's clear Rodgers thinks he does. Unless you know more about the way Rodgers wants to play than the man does himself I think it's safe to assume Lucas fits.

If you want to find stats for him getting tackled then fine but the point was he gave the ball away lots. He doesn't, he's the water carrier that allows more creative players to focus on what they do best. Same way Mikel allows Chelsea to get the best out of the attacking talent in front of him and countless other players do for their sides too.
But is it enough to ever get back in CL, all the season he's been regular suggest it isn't, so is it really that wrong to think that another player would be a better fit?
 

rab

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Quagmire81 said:
But is it enough to ever get back in CL, all the season he's been regular suggest it isn't, so is it really that wrong to think that another player would be a better fit?
One player is the reason we haven't got back in the Champions League? Started the semi final against Chelsea in 2008/09 so I call bullshit on that fallacy.

I think the H&G saga, the departure of Rafa, the appointment of Hodgson, the lack of transfer funds, the departure of some of our best players and the improvements of the likes of City and Spurs is likely to be the reason we haven't been in the CL for a while. Or maybe it's all Lucas's fault :rolleyes:
 

redbj

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It's obviously not all Lucas' fault, but it's still an interesting question that needs to be asked in a lot if people's minds.

I think Lucas can play a role in a top four squad, and perhaps his longevity is because of that fact, but I doubt he can hold down a starting spot in a team that's going where we want to go.

Hence, there has never been any urgency to upgrade on him, especially as a few years ago he was on an upward curve with a reasonably high expectation.

Unfortunately at 26 after a pretty horrific series of injuries it again feels like we have to sit and wait for him to regain his potential.

But I too believe we won't get fourth consistantly with him as a central midfielder, whichever sexy name you want to attribute to his role, he stands in the middle of the park and takes up one of the 11 spots.....so I repeat, with him in the middle of the park I don't see us continually challenging.

It's an opinion.
 

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No better Saturday arvo than an old fashioned Lucas debate, oh wait the afl grand final is on!
 

jimmydestiny

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While this result still bothers me our win over Palace this weekend and the results for Arsenal, Spurs and Everton (our main rivals) has eased the pain of losing this particular game.