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POST MATCH: Liverpool 1-1 Newcastle United

costared

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We all know the missing striker is the major problem but I think Brendans methods do need tweaking. We often put ourselves in trouble by trying to play short passes out of defence all of the time. Like everything else in life ,there is a time and a place for it but when the opposition have a lot of men forward and your easy options are closed down it is dangerous.
I love our short passing game but feel we become obsessed with possession at times and could make the forward pass earlier(I said pass not hoof).
It is also worth noting that our goal came from a long pass and not for the first time this season. Not suggesting we should revert to a long ball game but variety is the spice of life and we have not been varying things much.
 


davenewton1

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Everyone is down...and rightly so.

Things will get better but as I have said many times this season, everyone needs to be incredibly patient because it is/was always going to be a very very tough season. It breaks ma heart seeing us in the bottom half of the table...but, seen it before under Roy and Souness so I am a little thick skinned to the horror and kamikaze rants going on at the moment..for many younger supporters, its a total and utter shock to the system.

But hang in there. Things can and will get better.
Im sure they will mate im just a bit pissed with the possession game and no goals
p.s Im 33 !!!!!!!!!
 

redbj

hurry up, July 1st, let's get the show on the road
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I'd say its lucky that Shelvey - usually a decent goal threat - missed three open goals.

We need a reliable goalscorer, but you should really have lost that game.
how is shelvey 'usually a decent goal threat'

how many first team goals has he got for us, ever. thats not a slagging of the kid, its just a cold hard fact, people are speculating when tey talk about the threat thats shelvey, sterling and suso make......as tempting as it is to become over confident in them, all we have at the moment is potential..NOT results

if teams want three points against us tommorrow all they really need to do is shut out suarez, regardless of how tasty the the kids look.



i think DG has the right of it here, soak it up, this current liverpool squad havent got the ammuntion to back up thier game....
 

DEVGRU

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Dev, to be fair to Souness, he had us finished with 6th twice and his last season we finished 8th. Won us a cup as well.
For a team that was winning the league, fa cup and league cup consistently from the 1980s till the day Dalglish resigned, it was a disaster for the most part under Souness.

We were ugly..from the way we played to the players he signed..Kozma, Stewart, Dicks, Torben Piechenick (or whatever his name was)..the only player to come out unscath as one of his signings was Bjorneby. And maybe Walters.

We were so bad to watch..it was as depressing as it was watching Roy and his tactics at work.

And bear in mind, under Dalglish, we NEVER finished lesser than runner's up until Souness came along.

It was ten steps back for a club like Liverpool to be finishing in 6th or lower or slightly higher..and the cup win against Sunderland (i think it was sunderland..and they weren't even a first division side) was nice but honestly, it was poor tactics, a number of ill-judged transfer dealings and poor man-management brought one of the bleakest spells for the club.

Souness is, was an absolute failure and contributed nothing to the club as a manager.




Look back to his first season
 

redbj

hurry up, July 1st, let's get the show on the road
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souness was left with a dogs dinner for a squad that makes rodgers squad look like champions elect though, to be fair.
 



funkynoise74

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What are people's opinions on Enrique's performance yesterday? After an encouraging start, and apart from his one pass, I thought his distribution was quite poor and I just wish he could use his right foot for more than just standing on.

With regards to the goalkeeping situation, I was fortunate to play at two football league clubs, so played at a fairly good level, and I have coached goalkeepers at another academy, and I don't feel comfortable watching Jones in goal. I don't think he was at fault yesterday as it was a superb shot, but he did already seem to be going backwards, as his back was arched that way, perhaps if he was stood upright, he would have had more chance of saving it, albeit by it hitting him in the face. All keepers are prone to mistakes, and sadly theirs are usually more costly.
 

redbj

hurry up, July 1st, let's get the show on the road
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he was utter gash
 

King Aldo

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What game were you watching, mate?

Cos the one I saw we had two thirds of the ball and twice as many shots at goal.
The one where after the first 15 minutes we were outplayed until half time and kept giving the ball away very cheaply, Allen, Enrique and Stevie being the main culprits. For a team that is supposed to be built on "pass and move", after a quarter of a season, at home, I would have expected much more from the team. Why could they dominate Newcastle for 15 minutes but not continue to dominate? - clearly the ability is there but something else is at work. We've seen this pattern in a lot of games, against Utd, Arsenal and Man City and each time we've dropped points. Same as yesterday.

Fair enough in the second half we dominated them ... but with a bit of patience on their part they could have scored another one or two also, we got picked apart very easily on the counter attack.

I just don't think its fair for BR or others to try to spin a "story" that we dominated the game and deserved to win. In my opinion the result was a fair result, we dominated possession but Newcastle played a very good defensive game and caught us a couple of times with good counter-attacking football which was their game plan and it worked for them.

Other people on here have the same opinion as me. For a team with lots of youngsters in it we played very well at times and we got a result, which is what we deserved. Our league position is a fair reflection on where the team is at right now.
 

Hope in your heart

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We all know the missing striker is the major problem but I think Brendans methods do need tweaking. We often put ourselves in trouble by trying to play short passes out of defence all of the time. Like everything else in life ,there is a time and a place for it but when the opposition have a lot of men forward and your easy options are closed down it is dangerous.
I love our short passing game but feel we become obsessed with possession at times and could make the forward pass earlier(I said pass not hoof).
It is also worth noting that our goal came from a long pass and not for the first time this season. Not suggesting we should revert to a long ball game but variety is the spice of life and we have not been varying things much.
Spot on. As for the highlighted part, you mean passing like we did under Kenny last season? Pass-and-move, and at times, try to play a bit more direct towards the opposing goal? Exactly. That's how we became the team crafting out most clear-cut chances in the league last season.
 



funkynoise74

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Don't forget the fact he's half injured and playing with painkillers. It's got to hurt his performance.
That being said, he was poor.
Yes true, benefit of the doubt and all that, but his passing seems all over the place at the moment. He's very strong and uses his body strength well, but seems to go into panic mode a lot of the time. A shame really, as he has the assets to be a good attacking fullback.
 

Red Armada

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how is shelvey 'usually a decent goal threat'

how many first team goals has he got for us, ever. thats not a slagging of the kid, its just a cold hard fact, people are speculating when tey talk about the threat thats shelvey, sterling and suso make......as tempting as it is to become over confident in them, all we have at the moment is potential..NOT results

if teams want three points against us tommorrow all they really need to do is shut out suarez, regardless of how tasty the the kids look.



i think DG has the right of it here, soak it up, this current liverpool squad havent got the ammuntion to back up thier game....
Geordie is right, opposing teams know that 9 times out of 10 we will screw up from very promising positions while we are bound to present them with at least one clear goal scoring opportunity. That won't change until we get some capable forwards in and until the current players, with one or two exceptions, grow a pair and start flooding the box.


What are people's opinions on Enrique's performance yesterday? After an encouraging start, and apart from his one pass, I thought his distribution was quite poor and I just wish he could use his right foot for more than just standing on.
We need a new left back.
 

Arminius

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I actually want him to do well so we can recoup close to £20m although that idea is looking more and more fanciful.

Oh well, onwards and hopefully upwards on our meagre budget we go. I think it would be a smart move before the January window opens to sign Carr for the French market and Swansea's chief scout for the Spanish market. Why the hell didn't we try and sign £2m Michu? How many quality players have Swansea brought in the summer for peanuts? Michu, Hernandez, De Guzman-all cheap and all producing the goods. Bloody hell, i'm starting to sound like Rich with my moaning.
Carr signed a 5(?) year contract this summer, so I doubt we have much hope of that....

Pretty sure that Michu was a Laudrup selection, having just come from Spain I don't those selections were 'scouting' at all.
 



DEVGRU

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souness was left with a dogs dinner for a squad that makes rodgers squad look like champions elect though, to be fair.
Grobelaar/Hooper
Nicol
Hysen
Ablett
Gillespie
Beglin/Burrows
McMahon
Molby
Barnes
Rush

*can't remember the rest of the squad that Dalglish left behind

Souness brought in:

Kozma (shit)
Walters (inconsistent)
Clough (inconsistent)
Ruddock (slow/inconsistent/drank too much)
Dicks (refer to ruddock review)
Piechneick (crap defender)
Rob Jones (probably the best signing EVER by Souness and one of the most under rated right backs alongside Nicol)
Paul Stewart (out of his depth...absolute shite)
Dean Saunders (great at derby, inconsistent at liverpool)
Mark Wright (great at derby, jury is still out on this signing I think 20 years later)

Can't think of anymore Souness signings but Redknapp was signed by Dalglish and McManaman and Flower and Carra were recruited and groomed by a youth set up Souness had no control over. Credit Steve Heighway.

feel free to correct me if I have made a mistake.
 

basil1492

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how is the wheather in fantasy land ?
I'll start with the obvious, it's "weather" and move onto the even more obvious, the points i brought up are well known by most in the country so which bits are fantasy. The 3 main things i brought up are

1. we need a good striker (Huntelaar, Llorente etc), just about everyone in the country that's watched us of late know we lack a striker. 23 shots yesterday ended with 1 goal, a conversion rate of 1 in 5 is probably more typical of a decent side.

2, we need a DM, Lucas would be great but if injured we need to play someone (Henderson for now until we buy a backup), With a good DM players such as Stevie and Allen won't have to keep holding back and we might, just might, end up having players in the box.

3. Stevie as a right sided attacker, he's done it before and can do it now as that is one of our weak spots. With Lucas back as i mentioned then we have loads of good players to play in the middle. Allen, Sahin, Shelvey, Suso, Henderson and even Pacheco if needed.

Not sure if you think any of this is fantasy but if so then please explain which bit.

we werent that bad, ill have to watch the game again to see why ged is getting so much shit too, thought he was quite good, one sublime pass late on was ridiculous.
Have to agree, i said in my first post that he seemed to be chasing everything down and trying to win the game on his own. He made some good passes though i did think his dead ball crosses were off. Most of the time though i noticed he was looking for a player in the box, with Suarez coming out for the ball and Sterling staying out wide there was nobody there (as usual) so he was forced into shorter passes which in all fairness isn't his biggest strength. I think part of it though was how fast they closed us down, Allen and Sahin also misplaced a lot of passes yesterday and i put that down to Newcastle as well, they seemed to be looking for the interception knowing that we would play a short pass.
 

DEVGRU

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Someone please define for me "holding midfielder" v "defensive midfielder" please.
 

KingLuis7

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I love the effort of all of Suarez, Sterling and Suso but I'm starting to dislike them as a front 3. Simply no one in the box. Suso has been good but I think we are missing someone like Borini who will try and get in at the back post. All 3 of them are just a little too similar in playing style etc to make an effective front 3. Would love to see Gerrard shoved out on the right when Lucas is back, or Shelvey getting a start.

It is great to see Suarez finally banging them in though - I just wish we had one other player to take pressure off of him, sigh.
 

MarlboroMan

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Another sad day after an unfair result at least after the manner in which we went for the win. My feeling is that we just don't have the depth to compete and losing Lucas, Pepe(though he wasn't at his best) and Johnson hurt us more than those outside Liverpool realize. First we lost Enrique at the start of the season and were forced to play Glen Johnson at LB then Kelly is lost for the season and Wisdom has to come in. We then lose Johnson, at least in the short-term, but get Jose back. We have yet to see what we'd look like with a fully fit Enrique and Johnson at fullback. My point actually is that Wisdom is most definately a talent but he's not ready to play in the first team much less at RB since he's a CB. With Andre Wisdom and Suso on the same side we are getting nothing from our right side. Most of our attacks come from our left, too predictable.

Our lack of quality and experience up front I feel is our biggest problem. Then there is the issue of a lack of trust between the front 3. Suarez did his thing yesterday but should have passed a few times but decided to take it on himself. Then Sterling decides to do the same and soon everyone is trying to win the game themselves.

One annoying moment was in the 2nd half when Suarez rounded the defender on the right side, as he always does and his shot was blocked but fell back to him and he passed it to Shelvey but he fluffed it completely. After watching the replay I noticed that he turned his body away from the play after realizing the Suarez didn't pass him the ball that he was late to react to Luis' pass when it did come. He was too busy throwing his hands up and getting angry for not getting the ball when he should have played on and kept his eyes on the ball then he would have been more prepared to hit the ball more cleanly at the second attempt.

3 points against Chelsea will help tremendously in my wish for us to get into the top 6 by the start of January.
 



i_still_miss_fowler

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Someone please define for me "holding midfielder" v "defensive midfielder" please.
When most people refer to a defensive midfielder, they are typically talking about a spoiler, a defensive specilaist. Some one who harrases the opponent to win the ball back. Masc, Viera, Keane are classic examples of this. Lucas typically falls into this catagory, but has some qualities of a holding midfielder.

Holding midfielder is a more general term (which can include defensive mindfielder), however typically when people use the term here they are talking about a player who performs defensive duties, and occupies a similar position on the pitch, but their main aim is to dictate tempo or provide the base to intiate attack. There is no better example than Alonso, in our current set up Allen I would describe as a holding midfielder (rather than a defensive midfielder)
 

shachart

"You're supposed to help people that need a bit."
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I'll start with the obvious, it's "weather" and move onto the even more obvious, the points i brought up are well known by most in the country so which bits are fantasy. The 3 main things i brought up are

1. we need a good striker (Huntelaar, Llorente etc), just about everyone in the country that's watched us of late know we lack a striker. 23 shots yesterday ended with 1 goal, a conversion rate of 1 in 5 is probably more typical of a decent side.

2, we need a DM, Lucas would be great but if injured we need to play someone (Henderson for now until we buy a backup), With a good DM players such as Stevie and Allen won't have to keep holding back and we might, just might, end up having players in the box.

3. Stevie as a right sided attacker, he's done it before and can do it now as that is one of our weak spots. With Lucas back as i mentioned then we have loads of good players to play in the middle. Allen, Sahin, Shelvey, Suso, Henderson and even Pacheco if needed.

Not sure if you think any of this is fantasy but if so then please explain which bit.
i agree with everything you wrote, even the weather comment. i have said so myself many times.
the fantasy bit refers to your comment, that if we get another forward, plus lucas will be back goals would be flowing.
another striker is much needed, and lucas is badly missed. but the reason we are playing so badly isn't either. we are under performing because BR isn't willing to make changes in his system to address these problems. if we had played with gerrard up front close to suarez instead of suso, and bring in shelvy or hendo into the midfield, playing in a formation like with gerrard and torres, we probably wouldn't have taken the PL by storm but i am pretty certain we would have scored more goals, and played far better.
our main problem is not that we are missing players, it is our manager doesn't know how to get the best out of the players we got. once we take care of that, goals would be flowing.
 

1988greatestteam

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Bring BACK ANDY... BRING BACK ANDY.... BRING BACK ANDY
Nah he would not have made a diddly of difference yesterday, our game is too pacey for the lumber man now, he is gonna be sold anyway as soon as we get the right offer, maybe 18m if we are lucky, we will take a massive hit and move on get a couple of young fast lads to buzz off Suarez.
 

basil1492

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i agree with everything you wrote, even the weather comment. i have said so myself many times.
the fantasy bit refers to your comment, that if we get another forward, plus lucas will be back goals would be flowing.
another striker is much needed, and lucas is badly missed. but the reason we are playing so badly isn't either. we are under performing because BR isn't willing to make changes in his system to address these problems. if we had played with gerrard up front close to suarez instead of suso, and bring in shelvy or hendo into the midfield, playing in a formation like with gerrard and torres, we probably wouldn't have taken the PL by storm but i am pretty certain we would have scored more goals, and played far better.
our main problem is not that we are missing players, it is our manager doesn't know how to get the best out of the players we got. once we take care of that, goals would be flowing.
I have to disagree with the bolded bit especially. I think if we had Lucas there then the CM would be fine and with a striker as well and Luis on the wing we would be creating even more chances than now and scoring a lot more as well. The system is working well, we are dominating most games and creating way more chances than the opposition. If we used this system with a DM to break up play and stop them scoring on the break plus having a striker that could score even 1 in 10 chances we would be beating most teams using this system.

This is just my opinion of course but even if we had played Stevie closer to Suarez and did everything else you mentioned i think that would leave the back even more exposed and we'd have had maybe 1 player in the box instead of 0. That wouldn't help enough. If Hendo can take over the DM position and the other players trust him enough that they will get forward that may help but i think BR isn't convinced of Hendos ability yet. We've missed Lucas for the best part of 2 seasons now and i think it shows in our results. We just don't have another very good DM and since BRs system relies on our CMs getting forward that has to be one of the most important positions in our team.
 

shachart

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When most people refer to a defensive midfielder, they are typically talking about a spoiler, a defensive specilaist. Some one who harrases the opponent to win the ball back. Masc, Viera, Keane are classic examples of this. Lucas typically falls into this catagory, but has some qualities of a holding midfielder.

Holding midfielder is a more general term (which can include defensive mindfielder), however typically when people use the term here they are talking about a player who performs defensive duties, and occupies a similar position on the pitch, but their main aim is to dictate tempo or provide the base to intiate attack. There is no better example than Alonso, in our current set up Allen I would describe as a holding midfielder (rather than a defensive midfielder)
if i am not mistaken, many times rafa used all three together masch,alonso and lucas.

i think the correct term to describe alonso is simply and old fashioned playmaker. like Xavi of barcelona
 



shachart

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I have to disagree with the bolded bit especially. I think if we had Lucas there then the CM would be fine and with a striker as well and Luis on the wing we would be creating even more chances than now and scoring a lot more as well. The system is working well, we are dominating most games and creating way more chances than the opposition. If we used this system with a DM to break up play and stop them scoring on the break plus having a striker that could score even 1 in 10 chances we would be beating most teams using this system.

This is just my opinion of course but even if we had played Stevie closer to Suarez and did everything else you mentioned i think that would leave the back even more exposed and we'd have had maybe 1 player in the box instead of 0. That wouldn't help enough. If Hendo can take over the DM position and the other players trust him enough that they will get forward that may help but i think BR isn't convinced of Hendos ability yet. We've missed Lucas for the best part of 2 seasons now and i think it shows in our results. We just don't have another very good DM and since BRs system relies on our CMs getting forward that has to be one of the most important positions in our team.
when all you got is lemons, you can do on eof 2 things :
1. join an online forum, and whine "if only...". like me .
2. make lemonade, which is what the manager is supposed to do.

so far, no lemonade.
maybe BR is in the forum under a false identity ;)
 

104TOSH

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Best approach to watching our frustrating team is to have no expectations! Enjoyed some of our football yesterday, in fact it was delightful at times! But, if we take our Magic Imp out of the equation then we we become very, very ordinary. Without Luis, our attack is impotent.

As most people have been saying for a very long time - we need a proven goalscorer! It is shameful that we find ourselves in this position, and to enter this season without suitable attacking options is criminal. It has been obvious for too long! Luis will burn out soon, he is a 110% give it all player with exquisite skills bordering on the esoteric - but he needs support. Some of the link up play between Luis and young Sterling was a joy to behold.

Without Luis, and even young Sterling our creativity hovers just above zero.

I have faith in Brendan, and hopefully he will be given the time needed, the last thing we need is for people to start asking for Brendan to be dismissed. Frustration is something we should all be used to! So the key word for this is patience! Brendan needs to be given the time he needs to assemble a squad which suits his footballing philosophy, if given this, then we will benefit in the long term.

This is the season of patience and not for demanding unrealistic goals(sic). Our squad is threadbare, some of the players are simply not good enough, and for now we have to persevere with what we have.

I thought, apart from the Newcastle goal we did well defensively. But I had a creeping feeling that we'd concede a goal after a good first 15-20 mins, and as an ex-goalkeeper I am not putting any blame on Brad. Even Pepe would have had trouble saving that one! And lets be honest its been a very long time since Pepe has been the goalkeeper we know he can be! I'm more than happy with Brad remaining in goal!

It was a game we should(boy what an over used word that has become!)have won - Jonjo's two misses and Sterling's delayed shot should have won us the game.

Finally, what a refreshing change to have a decent referee!
 

i_still_miss_fowler

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if i am not mistaken, many times rafa used all three together masch,alonso and lucas.

i think the correct term to describe alonso is simply and old fashioned playmaker. like Xavi of barcelona
Sorry mate your mistaken,

Only 2 games the 3 started a game togther in the PL (Hull April 2009 and Villa August 2008).

Till Alonso left (Summer 2009), Lucas was essentially a backup player for either Masc or Alonso. When he came on as substitute in almost every instance it was for one of them.

Even if you include times he came on as sub you have less than 5 games in the league.

The reason Alonso is refered to as a holding midfielder, is if you look at our team at the time (almost always 4-2-3-1). Alonso always was one of those (-2-), sitting in front of defence. Deep-lying playmaker, is just as valid a term for Alonso, however "playmaker" by itself generally implies a more attacking player like Xavi whose passing directly leads to goals, than a player who orchestrates play.

Its all academic anyway, terms are only to give an illustration of what we mean. They often overlap, or incorperate other terms (eg I would say all defensive midifielders are holding midfielders, but not all holding midfielders are defensive midfielders) and players cross boundaries eg Alonso also being a deep lying play maker (as his passing does lead to goals) unlike Allen/Lucas whose passing simply helps dictate tempo/keep the ball moving to provide a base to attack from.
 

ubermick

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We miss him, that's for sure. He has scored eight goals in sixteen appearances for Fenerbahce already. Top player and top pro, very difficult to replace.
Meanwhile those crowing for Andy Carroll, he's started six for the Hammers and has yet to score.

As for Kuyt (and Maxi) the fact that they were broomed to the sidelines last year in favour of Henderson and Downing is probably a fair whack of the reason their minds were already made up and wanted out the door before Rodgers even arrived.
 

Hope in your heart

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Meanwhile those crowing for Andy Carroll, he's started six for the Hammers and has yet to score.

As for Kuyt (and Maxi) the fact that they were broomed to the sidelines last year in favour of Henderson and Downing is probably a fair whack of the reason their minds were already made up and wanted out the door before Rodgers even arrived.
Yeah it's a pity it turned out like that... surely one of Kenny's major errors during his second tenure with us... it's all the more difficult to understand this when reminding oneself how good they were in that first six-month spell under Kenny...