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i_still_miss_fowler

Open Your Eyes Morty!
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if i am not mistaken, many times rafa used all three together masch,alonso and lucas.

i think the correct term to describe alonso is simply and old fashioned playmaker. like Xavi of barcelona
Sorry mate your mistaken,

Only 2 games the 3 started a game togther in the PL (Hull April 2009 and Villa August 2008).

Till Alonso left (Summer 2009), Lucas was essentially a backup player for either Masc or Alonso. When he came on as substitute in almost every instance it was for one of them.

Even if you include times he came on as sub you have less than 5 games in the league.

The reason Alonso is refered to as a holding midfielder, is if you look at our team at the time (almost always 4-2-3-1). Alonso always was one of those (-2-), sitting in front of defence. Deep-lying playmaker, is just as valid a term for Alonso, however "playmaker" by itself generally implies a more attacking player like Xavi whose passing directly leads to goals, than a player who orchestrates play.

Its all academic anyway, terms are only to give an illustration of what we mean. They often overlap, or incorperate other terms (eg I would say all defensive midifielders are holding midfielders, but not all holding midfielders are defensive midfielders) and players cross boundaries eg Alonso also being a deep lying play maker (as his passing does lead to goals) unlike Allen/Lucas whose passing simply helps dictate tempo/keep the ball moving to provide a base to attack from.
 

ubermick

Willing to drive Lovren to the airport
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We miss him, that's for sure. He has scored eight goals in sixteen appearances for Fenerbahce already. Top player and top pro, very difficult to replace.
Meanwhile those crowing for Andy Carroll, he's started six for the Hammers and has yet to score.

As for Kuyt (and Maxi) the fact that they were broomed to the sidelines last year in favour of Henderson and Downing is probably a fair whack of the reason their minds were already made up and wanted out the door before Rodgers even arrived.
 

Hope in your heart

Loyalty and patience, two undervalued concepts...
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Meanwhile those crowing for Andy Carroll, he's started six for the Hammers and has yet to score.

As for Kuyt (and Maxi) the fact that they were broomed to the sidelines last year in favour of Henderson and Downing is probably a fair whack of the reason their minds were already made up and wanted out the door before Rodgers even arrived.
Yeah it's a pity it turned out like that... surely one of Kenny's major errors during his second tenure with us... it's all the more difficult to understand this when reminding oneself how good they were in that first six-month spell under Kenny...
 

RedSeven

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Yeah it's a pity it turned out like that... surely one of Kenny's major errors during his second spell with us... it's all the more difficult to understand this when reminding oneself how good they were in that first six-month spell under Kenny...
How is Maxi doing since he returned home
 

Hope in your heart

Loyalty and patience, two undervalued concepts...
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How is Maxi doing since he returned home
Wiki states one goal in eight appearances. Not much info I know... maybe a lad watching Argentinian football could enlighten us a bit more than that...
 

ubermick

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How is Maxi doing since he returned home
One in eight for Newells.

Yeah Hope, I'm utterly baffled by last season. And not a little bit angry about it too, if I'm honest. We had a team firing on all cylinders in the second half of 2010-11 - and then two of the main contributors to that were then shoved aside, the team's chemistry completely shat on that summer, and we saw the result. Millions wasted, and awful performances.
 

zagueiro

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When most people refer to a defensive midfielder, they are typically talking about a spoiler, a defensive specilaist. Some one who harrases the opponent to win the ball back. Masc, Viera, Keane are classic examples of this. Lucas typically falls into this catagory, but has some qualities of a holding midfielder.

Holding midfielder is a more general term (which can include defensive mindfielder), however typically when people use the term here they are talking about a player who performs defensive duties, and occupies a similar position on the pitch, but their main aim is to dictate tempo or provide the base to intiate attack. There is no better example than Alonso, in our current set up Allen I would describe as a holding midfielder (rather than a defensive midfielder)
Interestingly Lucas sees himself as a Holding Midfielder, said so in his 60 minutes interview with Claire Rourke. Wonder if he uses the terms interchangeably, as many do.
 

zagueiro

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One in eight for Newells.

Yeah Hope, I'm utterly baffled by last season. And not a little bit angry about it too, if I'm honest. We had a team firing on all cylinders in the second half of 2010-11 - and then two of the main contributors to that were then shoved aside, the team's chemistry completely shat on that summer, and we saw the result. Millions wasted, and awful performances.
Meireles was another who would have fitted this seasons's system perfectly but was also treated abysmally by the previous regime and left way before he should have IMO
 

Arminius

FSG PR plant
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How is Maxi doing since he returned home
He is doing well - not scoring much yet, but creating a threat and a big part of why Newell's are on top of the league. I have only seen highlights, I meant to catch the one game that was available to me but didn't.

His comments about the declining health of Argentinian football were interesting too.

Anyway, glad to see him enjoying the last years of his career. Te time was probably right, though we could damn sure use a goal or two from a wide player this season.
 

basil1492

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when all you got is lemons, you can do on eof 2 things :
1. join an online forum, and whine "if only...". like me .
2. make lemonade, which is what the manager is supposed to do.

so far, no lemonade.
maybe BR is in the forum under a false identity ;-)
I had doubts about signing BR which i've mentioned before, still don't know why he's playing Allen as a DM or holding midfielder while there are better in the squad (Hendo even though he hasn't had much chance to prove it). I still think the problem is he wants to play Allen and Stevie while wanting to get the most from Sahin (hopefully as a way to convince him to stay). This leaves no space for a DM though he would probably have some tough decisions if Lucas was fit.

As for the lemonade, i really think his system will work well given time and a striker along with Lucas back fit. Even now without them we look a good team, nearly always outplay teams and yes, i know, it's results that count but all the best teams need someone to hit the net. Suarez is doing well but i honestly think with a striker in the middle he will get more where their defenders have others to worry about, our striker will get loads where they are watching Suarez and the chances will become more clear cut. As i said though this is just opinion just now. Will have to wait till January to find out if i'm talking out of my backside :-)
 

EdWood

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I had doubts about signing BR which i've mentioned before, still don't know why he's playing Allen as a DM or holding midfielder while there are better in the squad (Hendo even though he hasn't had much chance to prove it). I still think the problem is he wants to play Allen and Stevie while wanting to get the most from Sahin (hopefully as a way to convince him to stay). This leaves no space for a DM though he would probably have some tough decisions if Lucas was fit.

As for the lemonade, i really think his system will work well given time and a striker along with Lucas back fit. Even now without them we look a good team, nearly always outplay teams and yes, i know, it's results that count but all the best teams need someone to hit the net. Suarez is doing well but i honestly think with a striker in the middle he will get more where their defenders have others to worry about, our striker will get loads where they are watching Suarez and the chances will become more clear cut. As i said though this is just opinion just now. Will have to wait till January to find out if i'm talking out of my backside :-)
Who else is there besides Allen to fill in as a DM in the squad atm? Gerrard hasn't got the positional discipline to play there and Sahin isn't a tackler by nature; I don't think BR fancies Hendo really and even if he sees him with a future at LFC it'll take him a long time to learn to be a holding player - it took Lucas 18 months to after all, give or take. Allen alone has the attributes thatenable him to even come close to being a Lucas stand-in: Positional-awareness, tackling ability and excellent distribution. We're not seeing the best of Allen in this withdrawn role because he's a true central midfielder but this is a problem of our own making; we've had three or four transfer windows to bring in cover for Lucas and it's not happened (quite amateurish when you think about it) and consequently when Lucas is unavailable we've had to shoehorn-in CMs to play as DMs and found that this policy hasn't worked due to their collective inability to adapt to a new position
 

basil1492

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Who else is there besides Allen to fill in as a DM in the squad atm? Gerrard hasn't got the positional discipline to play there and Sahin isn't a tackler by nature; I don't think BR fancies Hendo really and even if he sees him with a future at LFC it'll take him a long time to learn to be a holding player - it took Lucas 18 months to after all, give or take. Allen alone has the attributes thatenable him to even come close to being a Lucas stand-in: Positional-awareness, tackling ability and excellent distribution. We're not seeing the best of Allen in this withdrawn role because he's a true central midfielder but this is a problem of our own making; we've had three or four transfer windows to bring in cover for Lucas and it's not happened (quite amateurish when you think about it) and consequently when Lucas is unavailable we've had to shoe-horn in CMs to play as DMs and found that this policy hasn't worked due to their collective inability to adapt to a new position
I agree that we should have bought a backup a long time ago and that Hendo is the main one that can play there but doesn't seem like he will get a chance. To me though what we need is someone good at breaking up attacks, can run with the ball, pass and generally provide cover at the back. This might not go down well but i'd put Agger there if he doesn't want to play Hendo. Coates can cover at the back and with Agger just in front of those 2 then he should have less work to do than normal anyway. Agger has a good head on his shoulders and i think he would know when to go forward and when to stay back and cover. It would also give us better threat at corners. Of course this is just temporary until Lucas is back or we get good cover. This would also allow Sahin and Stevie to spend more time near or in the box to help out Suarez.
 

RJK

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Everyone is down...and rightly so.

Things will get better but as I have said many times this season, everyone needs to be incredibly patient because it is/was always going to be a very very tough season. It breaks ma heart seeing us in the bottom half of the table...but, seen it before under Roy and Souness so I am a little thick skinned to the horror and kamikaze rants going on at the moment..for many younger supporters, its a total and utter shock to the system.

But hang in there. Things can and will get better.
Couldn't agree more. It'll be at least next season, if not the one after, before we see results under this system with the team that will suit it. Patience or turn off for 12 months

Couldn't agree more. It'll be at least next season, if not the one after, before we see results under this system with the team that will suit it. Patience or turn off for 12 months
Having said that, if we get the right personal in January, I expect we'll have a much better half of the season
 

shachart

"You're supposed to help people that need a bit."
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Sorry mate your mistaken,

Only 2 games the 3 started a game togther in the PL (Hull April 2009 and Villa August 2008).

Till Alonso left (Summer 2009), Lucas was essentially a backup player for either Masc or Alonso. When he came on as substitute in almost every instance it was for one of them.

Even if you include times he came on as sub you have less than 5 games in the league.

The reason Alonso is refered to as a holding midfielder, is if you look at our team at the time (almost always 4-2-3-1). Alonso always was one of those (-2-), sitting in front of defence. Deep-lying playmaker, is just as valid a term for Alonso, however "playmaker" by itself generally implies a more attacking player like Xavi whose passing directly leads to goals, than a player who orchestrates play.

Its all academic anyway, terms are only to give an illustration of what we mean. They often overlap, or incorperate other terms (eg I would say all defensive midifielders are holding midfielders, but not all holding midfielders are defensive midfielders) and players cross boundaries eg Alonso also being a deep lying play maker (as his passing does lead to goals) unlike Allen/Lucas whose passing simply helps dictate tempo/keep the ball moving to provide a base to attack from.
i stand corrected.
hats off on the stats.
 

FreakLFC

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I am back from my ban :D

OK I was disappointed, but what was wrong in saying: "Brendan can suck my [email protected]%^".? I won't say it again but I would like to know why is that inappropriate?

BTW did anyone see how Shelvey got pissed with Suarez when he lost the ball from Coloccini first? Suarez then won the ball and did some great movement and squared it back to Shelvey who kicked the ball as if he was 1 year old. Straight at Krul. Such a mistimed shot. That was our winner right there. People who say Shelvey needs glasses are correct.
 

DEVGRU

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I am back from my ban :D

OK I was disappointed, but what was wrong in saying: "Brendan can suck my [email protected]%^".? I won't say it again but I would like to know why is that inappropriate?

BTW did anyone see how Shelvey got pissed with Suarez when he lost the ball from Coloccini first? Suarez then won the ball and did some great movement and squared it back to Shelvey who kicked the ball as if he was 1 year old. Straight at Krul. Such a mistimed shot. That was our winner right there. People who say Shelvey needs glasses are correct.
Maybe since you are the better player, you should be on the bench or starting match's.

I mean, your expert analysis gives everyone that impression.

As to your question of why you were banned, I think you need to take a step back and understand what it means to be a supporter of the club and our values.

if i am not mistaken, many times rafa used all three together masch,alonso and lucas.

i think the correct term to describe alonso is simply and old fashioned playmaker. like Xavi of barcelona
Think Alonso is a different type/kind of player from Xavi...though I can see what you mean when it comes to range of passing, etc etc and the football brain both players have with their short/long range passing.

But I still think both are very different types..
 

DEVGRU

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We haven't done too badly with signings in the past...Hyypia, Henchoz, Riedl, Torres, Mascherano, Alonso, Johnson, Reina, Skerts, Agger, Lucas, Suarez, Suso, Sterling...etc etc...

Sure for every player signed, there will be players who fail to make it, or adapt or are just injury prone like Kewell..but shit happens.

Man Utd have probably had more duds under ferguson than any other manager. Mark Hughes and Tony Fernandez aside.
 

FreakLFC

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Maybe since you are the better player, you should be on the bench or starting match's.

I mean, your expert analysis gives everyone that impression.

As to your question of why you were banned, I think you need to take a step back and understand what it means to be a supporter of the club and our values.
:D Thanks for saying that my analysis is of the expert kind :D
 

RichLFC

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Going to be consistent in saying that Rodgers walked in to a poisoned chalice re here at the moment

But the excuse mentality is still damn persistent and personally speaking I feel it's getting worse

It's like so many are basically almost writing off games over weeks, months and even years with the same old mantras we have heard time and time again

When the bottom line is that if there is no real on pitch accountability for poor results you see players accepting mediocrity as well as everyone else, shrugging shoulders and saying 'whatever'

Difficult position for the manager and the second rate club admin are mostly to blame for this. We have known we needed Goalscorers for over a year. It should have been sorted by now
 

Never Say Never

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Going to be consistent in saying that Rodgers walked in to a poisoned chalice re here at the moment

But the excuse mentality is still damn persistent and personally speaking I feel it's getting worse

It's like so many are basically almost writing off games over weeks, months and even years with the same old mantras we have heard time and time again

When the bottom line is that if there is no real on pitch accountability for poor results you see players accepting mediocrity as well as everyone else, shrugging shoulders and saying 'whatever'

Difficult position for the manager and the second rate club admin are mostly to blame for this. We have known we needed Goalscorers for over a year. It should have been sorted by now
I think Rogers does shoulder some of the blame for this. Persisting with Downing and Cole, to me, is the acceptance of mediocrity. I know we're short on options, but I'd truly rather throw in another youth player, than persist with the embodiments of mediocrity. You can't tell me that Adorjan or Pacheco would be any worse than those two. Hell at least they'd show some effort. We can't hide behind this, we played well bs. We need to win, and our current position isn't good enough. We just look toothless in the final third unless Suarez pulls some magic.
 

DEVGRU

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I think Rogers does shoulder some of the blame for this. Persisting with Downing and Cole, to me, is the acceptance of mediocrity. I know we're short on options, but I'd truly rather throw in another youth player, than persist with the embodiments of mediocrity. You can't tell me that Adorjan or Pacheco would be any worse than those two. Hell at least they'd show some effort. We can't hide behind this, we played well bs. We need to win, and our current position isn't good enough. We just look toothless in the final third unless Suarez pulls some magic.
Persisting with Downing or Cole? Neither has had much of a sniff in the side since the start of the league.
 

funkynoise74

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I agree that we should have bought a backup a long time ago and that Hendo is the main one that can play there but doesn't seem like he will get a chance. To me though what we need is someone good at breaking up attacks, can run with the ball, pass and generally provide cover at the back. This might not go down well but i'd put Agger there if he doesn't want to play Hendo. Coates can cover at the back and with Agger just in front of those 2 then he should have less work to do than normal anyway. Agger has a good head on his shoulders and i think he would know when to go forward and when to stay back and cover. It would also give us better threat at corners. Of course this is just temporary until Lucas is back or we get good cover. This would also allow Sahin and Stevie to spend more time near or in the box to help out Suarez.
I was having the very same chat with a mate yesterday about Agger. I think having Coates in at the back and pushing Agger up would make perfect sense at the moment.