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POST MATCH: Liverpool 2-2 Chelsea

ChicagoRed

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kwala said:
That is the problem. Agger had him then didn't. Did he pass him on to Carra? Did Carra know he was passing him on? What are our 2 CB's doing dealing with Oscar in the first place? Surely Lucas, Downing or Coutinho are capable of dealing with him? If players were designated players to mark, stupid shite like this doesn't happen. Even If we set up Zonally, someone has got to be told to attack the near post. What was Lucas doing? He was near post, and than ended up Behind Reina? Was it man to man? Zonal? A mixture of the 2? IT WAS UTTER MAYHEM.


I don't think our defenders have a clue what they are supposed to be doing at dead balls, and we concede at an alarming rate as a result. The best signing we can make this summer is someone to sort out the defence. We will get nowhere conceding soft goals week in week out next season either.
A mixture of zonal and man marking is fine. Oscar shouldn't be man marked which looked like he wasn't. The only reason Agger 'had' Oscar was becasue he was standing square in the middle. I'm not sure what Lucas was doing. If you have near post then just stay on the near post. He wasn't even in the picture for most of it, then just came out of nowhere.
 


104TOSH

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mattyhurst said:
Blaming on Pepe not saving a penalty is a little harsh to be honest, it was the stupidity of the player sticking his hand up that cost us, however in hindsight I wish that had been his last stupidity of the afternoon.

Wasn't Carragher at fault on the Oscar goal? Apologies if my mind was playing tricks but he was the one who looked like his brushed off.

Have to agree with Shelvey though his miss was poor, hope a few of these young players get minutes however in the final four gamesThe likes of Suso, Shelvey and even Coady, I'd even try wisdom at the back.
Matty, not blaming Pepe at all! Was an innocent question! I actually had a feeling he was going to save it, never mind! Pepe has returned to a decent level and I have no bad words to say about him.

Carra! No, although he was involved - or rather not! I was watching Lucas who I believe should have been at the near post instead of hovering about the six yard area and ending up behind Pepe doing bugger all! Lucas would possible have cleared the header off the line. Instead he did nothing!

Carra probably tries to over compensate for the panic that sets in at corners/set pieces, his mind must be all over the place. Truth is we are awful at both ends with corners!

Agree with you and hope some youngsters get some playing time in our remaining games.
 

alaskared

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So this crap going around:
Luis Suarez's Liverpool controversies

December 2011 - Given eight-match suspension and fined £40,000 for racially abusing Manchester United's Patrice Evra.

February 2012 - Refuses to shake hands with Evra at Old Trafford and is described as a "disgrace" by Sir Alex Ferguson.

October 2012 - Accused of diving by Stoke manager Tony Pulis.

November 2012 - Accused of stamping on Dave Jones by Wigan manager Roberto Martinez.

January 2013 - Mansfield chief executive Carolyn Radford says Suarez "stole" their FA Cup tie when he scored after using his hand.

One actual offense and then endless latching on to destabilize our best player. Yes he jammed his teeth into a defender. I am a little dismayed to see fans jumping on the skysports version of " Suarez will eventually bring down the British Empire if he is not banned". He made a silly mistake, it appears the ref wasn't worried about any deep bite and didn't take action. Pics make it look more like an open mouth tussle, stupid and aggressive. 3 game ban fine, move on.
Why all of a sudden is the offense ten times worse because it is Suarez? One crime , one punishment.
He saved us a point too with his non stop desire and agression, and probably saved us from fighting to stay up this season. Sometimes his fight gets him in trouble, this is one of those times.....
 

lfc.eddie

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TFC said:
The commentators brought it up during the match. At 0:03 of the video you posted, you can see Agger standing right behind Oscar. A bit before that Agger pointed to Oscar and yelled something, that was assumed to be Agger saying he's marking Oscar.
It could very well be him telling some of the smaller midfielder or defender to cover that roaming fella while he will take care of anything coming close to 6 yard box.
 

Dr_J

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For me the question is why Lucas didn't stay on the near post when he slid back into the goal. Why haven't we got people on the posts there? It was a pretty bad looking tactical error I must say. Not sure if it's BR's choice, just players losing sight of their markers, or maybe they just didn't think Oscar was dangerous from a set piece but that's a bad mistake in my opinion.
 



gasband

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The starting position for Oscar was in between Carragher in the front and Agger at the back. When Agger saw Oscar running away from him, I can only assume, he is shouting at Carragher to follow Oscar which Carragher did but was too late to prevent Oscar from getting to the ball and Carragher seems frustrated afterwards, whether with himself or that someone else should have been marking Oscar. We can only guess but I think overall, we had this problem with corners all season long, this one goal is just but one incident, we need to get this corner thing and even freekicks into the box right, we are getting slaughtered...by probably one of the smallest player, Oscar. I fear the day the likes of Tevez and Shaun Wright Philips scores a header against us.


Dr_J said:
For me the question is why Lucas didn't stay on the near post when he slid back into the goal. Why haven't we got people on the posts there? It was a pretty bad looking tactical error I must say. Not sure if it's BR's choice, just players losing sight of their markers, or maybe they just didn't think Oscar was dangerous from a set piece but that's a bad mistake in my opinion.
Again, if you see the replay, once the ball was played from the corner, Lucas actually moved back into the near post but he retreated towards the middle as Reina moves towards the near post almost instinctively. Do not think this goal is any one person's fault. This has probably been practiced many times. Its either the tactics are sucks to the core or the players just do not take their positions well enough.
 

mattyhurst

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104TOSH said:
Matty, not blaming Pepe at all! Was an innocent question! I actually had a feeling he was going to save it, never mind! Pepe has returned to a decent level and I have no bad words to say about him.

Carra! No, although he was involved - or rather not! I was watching Lucas who I believe should have been at the near post instead of hovering about the six yard area and ending up behind Pepe doing bugger all! Lucas would possible have cleared the header off the line. Instead he did nothing!

Carra probably tries to over compensate for the panic that sets in at corners/set pieces, his mind must be all over the place. Truth is we are awful at both ends with corners!

Agree with you and hope some youngsters get some playing time in our remaining games.
I saw it mentioned seriously when I was travelling back yesterday, hence when I saw it mentioned again I reacted, our set pieces are dog toss both in attacking and defending, Swansea were never this bad I wonder if the old guy who Rodgers didn't bring coached that.

It ironically was like this at times in the past, not under Dalgish but I remember it being bad at times under Rafa not this chronic mind, sure it has probably cost us a high number of points
 

i_still_miss_fowler

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The logic behind the corner and the positioning is that Enrique and Suarez are blocking the main attacking threat in the center. They are not their to beat Torres and Ivanovic in the air but prevent them making a run. Agger is is positioned towards goal so that he is not flat footed and can attack the ball (unlike the attackers who are hopefully blocked by bodies)

Agger cant follow Oscar (If ball had been more central/knocked on Torres had gotten free). Its really a mess up between Lucas and Carragher (and communication in the box) . Personally I believe its the job of Lucas to come forward rather than retreat into no mans land, having the best position to see individuals breaking free, and having no marking responsibility.

However if Carragher was younger perhaps he would have reacted quicker and done enough to prevent a free header.
 

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kwala said:
(...)

We are shite at taking dead balls and shite at defending them. Do we actually work on them at all?

Who is our defensive coach? Pascoe?
We have been a laughing stock all season when having to defend set pieces, and although the season is about to end, we have made zero progress on them.

I've no clue who coaches defensive play, but whoever it is, he needs to be replaced by someone more competent, that's for sure. Last season, we were strong in these situations.
 

mattyhurst

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Can anyone answer were we man marking under Dalgish? We've swapped between zonal and man for years it doesn't help at all mind. I know it was pretty erratic when we played zonal in the past.

Maybe we will see a defence coach in the summer, I'm not entirely worried by it if it continues next season mind then questions need asking.
 



i_still_miss_fowler

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It was a blend of the two, like today however there are key differences.

If you look back under Clarke, we almost always had a man on the line, sometimes two (Be it Cardiff or City).

Instead of our CBs zonal marking, Agger and Skrtel typically man marked the biggest aerial/attacking threats. Skrtel almost always taking the strongest in the air, Agger the man who is most likely to score.

We typically had a further couple of players (eg Kuyt) who would man mark and try win the ball in the air.
 

MarlboroMan

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Yeah our non-defenders at very poor at winning high balls, Lucas and Gerrard are only average at it and Henderson is plain shit at it. Coutinho tries but doesn't have the strength or height and Downing is similar to Henderson. Suarez is also quite poor so that just leaves us with the 4 defenders to defend set-pieces which as we've seen is not good enough. Poor coaching is also evident as we haven't improved one bit all season which an experienced manager would have done better.

We are going to need at least one very good midfielder at winning the aerial balls and more effort from a couple others plus the experienced coach to help. This still means we're going to need another CB who is not only quick but strong in the air.
 
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showmethemoney

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i_still_miss_fowler said:
It was a blend of the two, like today however there are key differences.

If you look back under Clarke, we almost always had a man on the line, sometimes two (Be it Cardiff or City).
I know WBA have gone slightly off the boil in recent games, but has their defense been good this season? Compared to say recent seasons when he wasn't there?
 

Libero

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We havent had a decent defender who is strong in the air since hyypia. You would have thought Coates would be one, but even he seemed to get outmuscled in the air.
 
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showmethemoney

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I think we seem to go from one extreme to the other.

One season our defense goes from being shit hot & our attackers are woeful.
Then the next season, we are magnificent in attack & our defense goes to shit!

We ned to find a happy medium.

Come on Brendan - do your thang!
 



Libero

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showmethemoney said:
I think we seem to go from one extreme to the other.

One season our defense goes from being shit hot & our attackers are woeful.
Then the next season, we are magnificent in attack & our defense goes to shit!

We ned to find a happy medium.

Come on Brendan - do your thang!
Next year our attack and defence will be shit but our midfield will be fantastic.

Hendo and Downing could make out to be pretty good signings.
 

MarlboroMan

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Borini's Knife said:
We havent had a decent defender who is strong in the air since hyypia. You would have thought Coates would be one, but even he seemed to get outmuscled in the air.
Coates has been worse dealing with the ball on the ground due to his lack of pace so Rodgers would never play him. I am surprised that Rodgers has stuck with Carragher for this long though. I thought he was just going to bench Skrtel for a few games then bring him back but he's gone with Jamie even though I believe we've done worse defending set-pieces with Carragher. I could be wrong. We have defended everything else better with Carragher but set-pieces I believe so it makes sense.
 

Libero

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MarlboroMan said:
Coates has been worse dealing with the ball on the ground due to his lack of pace so Rodgers would never play him. I am surprised that Rodgers has stuck with Carragher for this long though. I thought he was just going to bench Skrtel for a few games then bring him back but he's gone with Jamie even though I believe we've done worse defending set-pieces with Carragher. I could be wrong. We have defended everything else better with Carragher but set-pieces I believe so it makes sense.
I dont think the poor defending on set pieces is due to carragher alone, our whole setup seems wrong when defending set pieces. No one seems to know who they should be marking, whether its zonal or man to man. Every time a team has a set piece I close my eyes.

Look at Barca for example, not the tallest team going around but I dont see them threatened as much in the air, they seem to be able to cope quite well.
 

MarlboroMan

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Borini's Knife said:
Next year our attack and defence will be shit but our midfield will be fantastic.

Hendo and Downing could make out to be pretty good signings.
Man I'd love to live in your world! :)

Since when was "pretty good" good enough to build a side for the top 4? Both have shown the willingness to run around a lot with very little end product, that's good enough for Sunderland and Aston Villa but not at Liverpool. Chelsea were giving Henderson all the space to work in in the first half and he couldn't do a damn thing with it. The most important thing that Downing has brought to us this season is the ability to realize that when Gerrard makes his run forward, Stewart knows to cover for him and track back and help Lucas with the defending. At the attacking end he's as poor as they come I'm afraid.
 



Libero

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MarlboroMan said:
Man I'd love to live in your world! :)

Since when was "pretty good" good enough to build a side for the top 4? Both have shown the willingness to run around a lot with very little end product, that's good enough for Sunderland and Aston Villa but not at Liverpool. Chelsea were giving Henderson all the space to work in in the first half and he couldn't do a damn thing with it. The most important thing that Downing has brought to us this season is the ability to realize that when Gerrard makes his run forward, Stewart knows to cover for him and track back and help Lucas with the defending. At the attacking end he's as poor as they come I'm afraid.
Haha, my post wasn't meant to be taken seriously.

Having said that they are both very frustrating players, especially henderson. He has a few good games here and there and you think something will come from him, but then you see games like chelsea where he constantly gives the ball away.

As for downing, unfortunately he is the best option we have at the moment, again very frustrating as he seems to be able to get himself in decent positions but constantly lets himself down with the final delivery/shot.
 

i_still_miss_fowler

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The WBA defense is as good as you are going to get it with the players at his disposal. Hodgson takes most of the credit as he got the players well drilled with each knowing their job. Clarke had the good sense to maintain that approach with only relatively minor alterations.

The major difference for WBA has been in an attacking sense. They play far more through the middle, and less like Hodgsons 4-4-2 where the threat came from the wingers.
 

mattyhurst

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Thing is everyone is ignoring the main talking point of the game....

How in the hell did Jose Enrique grow his hair that long in around 2 weeks, mind you watching him I hope he went to the Barber, he does look ok with hair but looked rubbish gamewise
 

AnfieldCat

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Jose's hair did happen a few weeks ago and yet I am still as baffled by it as I was then!
 

cardiffpete

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gasband said:
Again, if you see the replay, once the ball was played from the corner, Lucas actually moved back into the near post but he retreated towards the middle as Reina moves towards the near post almost instinctively. Do not think this goal is any one person's fault. This has probably been practiced many times. Its either the tactics are sucks to the core or the players just do not take their positions well enough.
It actually has been practised many times ... although probably by Chelsea.

Drogba's last-gasp goal in the CL Final versus Bayern 2012 was scored from a Mata corner. That day, Mata delivered the ball about 2 yards outside the 6-yard box and about 2 yards outside of the goal, aka the exact same spot as Sunday. In our 1-1 draw at Stamford Bridge in November, Terry also scored from the exact same spot (as Oscar did) ...and again it was from a Mata corner - with then Glen and Agger both being blocked off by Ivanovic.

In this season's CL game against Shaktar, Moses also scored from an identical spot. This time a short corner, which Mata then whipped in. Once again, in the recent EL (Steaua game), Terry scores from an almost identical (mirrored) position from a Mata corner. Just a very quick review, and very much off-the-top-of-my-head ...but I'd hazard (pun intended) a guess that Chelsea have scored at the very least 8+ semi-identical goals in the last 2 seasons from Mata corners. His other variants are far-post, flick-ons to centre/ far-post (which explains the run of Mikel) etc, etc.

Maybe BR (and the coaching staff) just might have been taking a little bit more note of Mata's clear preferences on set pieces and thus instructed the players accordingly. Basically, just stick a man right-about-where the near-post version is likely to arrive at ...and you simply cut-that-out as an option. It's very, very easy to get suckered into simply reacting to opposition player's movement in the chaos of a corner-kick ... if you're only reacting (and not anticipating). If you can however somehow form a clear idea of exactly where the main danger spots are (as our analytical team might well have done - had they actually done their homework properly), then why not just pro-actively cover them? ...and not just get suckered into reacting?!

This season, Mata has taken about 55% of Chelsea's corners i.e. approx 70+ of their 135+ corners and he has found a man on 20+ occasions ...with many near misses as well. Approx 30+ of these corners have been delivered 2 yard outside of the 6-yard box and about 2 yard short of the goal (to boot) ....which to me indicates a clear and obvious danger area, and yet we didn't have a man there!! Mata is simply a superb corner-taker and is (of course) a superb player ... but yet any corner-taker can only do so much with corners i.e. delivering the ball into a pre-planned area (and doing it very consistently) is a superb skill of itself - but yet, if that area is properly defended, surely nothing can be achieved. That our analytics team and/or our players were seemingly incapable of responding to a well-known threat (on the day) is very troubling indeed. Surely they were aware-of, or else would (or should) have been made aware of a primary threat from a Mata corner. Instead, it was school-boy stuff ...and a very simple goal against.

We can analyse it to death ...but basically Mata struck a ball into his favourite area ...and bingo. That was literally all it took! Great skill shown by both Mata and Oscar (obviously) although not any great surprise, as both players possess the necessary quality ...and (obviously) comedy-capers by us in defense. Never mind not replacing Alonso/Mascherano ..we have also crucially never replaced Hyypia either. We haven't actually signed any real proper CB since 2008 and seem to also now be contempating extending Carra for another year. Great player for us and all, but I really hope that there is some changes at CB this summer to try and give us a leader from the back. 5 years is way too long to not properly address this position!!

Mata (in 11/12) scored 12 and directly assisted another 23 goals (of Chelsea's 109 goals that term) and he also (indirectly) assisted another 11 goals in just 55 games. This term (in all Comps), he has now topped that by scoring 18 times in 56 matches, by assisting another 31 Chelsea goals and by (indirectly) assisting another 16 times (aka was very critical in the move leading up to the goal). Just amazing numbers (and very un-Downing like numbers, haha). I love Mata to bits ...as he's a proper player and he's highly technical as well. A type-of-player we're also crying out for too.

Caveat - I do dislike Chelsea and I actually dislike them with a vengeance (although maybe not as much as ManU or Everton) ....but Mata is very much an exception, as he really is simply a wonderful footballer, and he's one that's almost impossible to dislike.