Post match: Liverpool 4-1 Cardiff City (27/10/18 3pm)

Man of the match

  • Alisson

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Alexander-Arnold

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Lovren

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Van Dijk

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Moreno

    Votes: 1 0.7%
  • Fabinho

    Votes: 15 9.9%
  • Wijnaldum

    Votes: 11 7.2%
  • Lallana [off 61’]

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Salah [GOAL 10’]

    Votes: 81 53.3%
  • Firmino [off 71’]

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Mane [GOAL 65’, GOAL 86’]

    Votes: 19 12.5%
  • Shaqiri [on 61’, GOAL 85’]

    Votes: 25 16.4%
  • Milner [on 71’]

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    152

Foldy

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Because Robertson - having not missed a game so far, and playing 180 minutes in the international break - needs a rest, and Moreno is the other left back we have? There is the young lad Adam Lewis, but if you can’t use your squad against Cardiff - who I think are the worst team in the division - when can you?

I’m not a fan of playing Lovren and Moreno together, as you’ve then two lads with a mistake in them in the back line. But to be fair, aside from an extremely fortuitous bounce of the ball, they caused us no trouble.
I always think that Moreno would have been brilliant as a LM, the lads pace is phenomenal and I've seen worse passers. Defensively its a horror show, hes far too heavy in the challenge and he lacks the nous to be in the right place at the right time. He's always been reactive as opposed to proactive as a fullback and we've seen how that works for him.
 

Mascot88

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I always think that Moreno would have been brilliant as a LM, the lads pace is phenomenal and I've seen worse passers. Defensively its a horror show, hes far too heavy in the challenge and he lacks the nous to be in the right place at the right time. He's always been reactive as opposed to proactive as a fullback and we've seen how that works for him.
Me too. Been saying it for years. He hasn’t a lot of end product, but as a lad who can stretch the pitch and offer a bit of width, I think he’d be a good player.

I just can’t do with him at full back. Approaching every tackle like it’s a special move on Street Fighter II
 

Caradoc

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We’ve also got talented young left backs Tony Gallacher (Scotland) and Ki- Jana Hoever (Netherlands) coming through the age-group setup.
 

Irishanfield

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Have to disagree with you on that one. I am nervous about a sudden brainfart - I can’t deny that - but these are few and far between these days. I haven’t seen any more obvious mistakes from Lovren than I have VvD over the past 6-7 months. Over the 2 ECL matches against City he was the best defender on the pitch full stop. The great thing about Lovren is he offers something different to Gomez yet still compliments Virgil in the centre of defence well.
Didn't he make a complete pigs arse of a clearance against city which he got away with
 

Kopstar

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@Kopstar - Adam Lewis is that LB you informed us about before he signed for us?
No mate, that was Juanma. I noticed he got a start for the U23s the other day but I can't say I've followed him that closely. He doesn't get much said about him though so I'm taking that as a bad sign.

Adam Lewis, on the other hand, is a genuine academy product and is raved about.
 

jaffod

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All our CB's have had a mistake in them over the last 18 months. Some we've got away with, some we haven't. Same with the full-back's, apart maybe from Robertson.
 

FGred

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I always think that Moreno would have been brilliant as a LM, the lads pace is phenomenal and I've seen worse passers. Defensively its a horror show, hes far too heavy in the challenge and he lacks the nous to be in the right place at the right time. He's always been reactive as opposed to proactive as a fullback and we've seen how that works for him.
What puzzles me is why is that guy not playing as an out and out winger or as someone else said as a left sided midfielder at least he would be able to use the few skills he acquired at LB for pressing?
 

Limiescouse

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Me too. Been saying it for years. He hasn’t a lot of end product, but as a lad who can stretch the pitch and offer a bit of width, I think he’d be a good player.

I just can’t do with him at full back. Approaching every tackle like it’s a special move on Street Fighter II
You've basically described the requirements for sunday league. He cant defend and doesn't do anything when hes on the ball, but he's left footed and can run.
 

ILLOK

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What puzzles me is why is that guy not playing as an out and out winger or as someone else said as a left sided midfielder at least he would be able to use the few skills he acquired at LB for pressing?
He hasn't got the ability on the ball. That's it, no other reasoning necessary.

He's incredibly quick and to his credit his fitness is second to none. Last season he showed some glimpses of improving his attacking play but nothing that would suggest he is able to play higher up the pitch. He has success on the overlap at times but he very rarely produces any quality from stationary positions, and you wouldn't bank on him to make intelligent runs in behind or finish off chances.

He isn't good enough for Liverpool and that's about the long and short of it.
 

Sweeting

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We’ve also got talented young left backs Tony Gallacher (Scotland) and Ki- Jana Hoever (Netherlands) coming through the age-group setup.
Hoever is a right back.
Gallacher hasn't shown very much yet unfortunately.
Lewis is essentially Moreno but born in Liverpool.
Juanma is extremely limited.

Personally feel Yasser Larouci is the best LB prospect we have (despite being right footed) but he some way off being first team ready.
 
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Hoever is a right back.
Gallacher hasn't shown very much yet unfortunately.
Lewis is essentially Moreno but born in Liverpool.
Juanma is extremely limited.

Personally feel Yasser Larouci is the best LB prospect we have (despite being right footed) but he some way off being first team ready.
Read somewhere that Adam Lewis will be getting promoted to first squad in the second half of the season and will replace Moreno.... It's not gonna happen? How good or bad is Adam Lewis?
 

LeoT

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I dont frequent the pre/post match threads too often, but dont recall seeing VVD receiving too much flak for his lunge the other week when he gave away a penalty.
Agree on Gini, very under rated and under appreciated.
So far this season Gini is everything I hoped Keita would have been, regardless of being played in either the 6 or 8 position.

Also I get the feeling VvD could dribble through the whole of our defense, and then smash the ball into the net past our own goal keeper and people will still blame Lovren and Moreno.

The criticism of some players is often based on their historical success/failure, rather than what actually happened in the particular incident on the pitch.
 

LeoT

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Lovren is an easy and popular target though.
He's been very decent for some time now, but it's as if people are continually poised for any opportunity to have a pop.

Lovren is a totally different player when played on the right-side of the center back paring.
His problem is he is remembered for all of his failings in the first couple of seasons in which he played as the left-sided center back.

If we swapped the 2 players (Lovren and VvD) in the goal we conceded, we would never hear the end of the criticism for Lovren for getting such a poor touch on the cross, especially when VvD was perfectly positioned to play the striker off-side or clear the cross if needed.
 

ILLOK

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Lovren is a totally different player when played on the right-side of the center back paring.
His problem is he is remembered for all of his failings in the first couple of seasons in which he played as the left-sided center back.

If we swapped the 2 players (Lovren and VvD) in the goal we conceded, we would never hear the end of the criticism for Lovren for getting such a poor touch on the cross, especially when VvD was perfectly positioned to play the striker off-side or clear the cross if needed.
He wasn't perfectly positioned, he was too far over and therefore didn't have much time to react when the ball came in. Van Dijk was so far over because Moreno left a huge hole there by diving in and missing the tackle.

Van Dijk missed a clearance against Huddersfield that was a genuine mistake, this one was more bad luck than anything else.
 

Limiescouse

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He wasn't perfectly positioned, he was too far over and therefore didn't have much time to react when the ball came in. Van Dijk was so far over because Moreno left a huge hole there by diving in and missing the tackle.
But his positioning was only exposed because the ball that came in was not one, by rights, that he was accounting for. You position yourself for the balls that might reasonably come in, taking into account the positioning of your team mates and the lanes they are blocking. The ball behind Van Dyke is Alisson's and so the only ball Lovren had to concern himself with is the cut back and he was well positioned for that.


EDIT: Sorry, you were talking about VvD's positioning. Urgh. However, I will leave that Lovren post there rather than delete it because it is a criticism I have seen from a few in this thread so is relevant to someone, even if not you :-)
 

Sweeting

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Read somewhere that Adam Lewis will be getting promoted to first squad in the second half of the season and will replace Moreno.... It's not gonna happen? How good or bad is Adam Lewis?
Lewis is a much better technical footballer than Moreno. Good close control, he's got a great cross on him and very useful when taking set pieces.

For me he is deceptively slow - he looks like he's absolutely flying but he really isn't going anywhere.
He gets beaten far too easily and is too often a long way out of position (I know people like to give the Moreno defence of "he's meant to attack" but he is also meant to defend and like Moreno that excuse runs thin when you lose a game because he is chose the wrong time to attack.)

I don't want to slate the lad as he is highly rated and has some tremendous assets to his game but he is definitely not first team ready - this is only his first year of not being U18 eligible - and I feel like his place of birth is the reason for the hype rather his play on the pitch.

He will need some time adjusting to U23 football and then a few good loan spells - ideally ones where he gets attacked week in, week out - before I would think of him as a serious option. Currently I would genuinely not be surprised if he was moved to CM and Larouci displaces him from LB before the end of the year. Our CM options are very poor and his passing range makes him a viable option to play there for the youth teams.

In recent years, I would say that Brad Smith is a better attacker than Lewis and Jack Robinson is a far, far better defender. Lewis is a better footballer than either but tactically he is just miles away.
 

Limiescouse

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He [Lewis} will need some time adjusting to U23 football and then a few good loan spells - ideally ones where he gets attacked week in, week out - before I would think of him as a serious option. Currently I would genuinely not be surprised if he was moved to CM and Larouci displaces him from LB before the end of the year. Our CM options are very poor and his passing range makes him a viable option to play there for the youth teams.

In recent years, I would say that Brad Smith is a better attacker than Lewis and Jack Robinson is a far, far better defender. Lewis is a better footballer than either but tactically he is just miles away.
That seems it would be for the benfit of the U23 side and to the detriment of his personal development. If so, if that happens it is surely the best marker that the staff don't have high hopes for him. If anything, the players for whom the best is expected are treated the other way...put in positions where the skills they need at senior level will be best challenged and developed even if it there are positions in the side he could play that would better benefit the side.
 

Sweeting

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That seems it would be for the benfit of the U23 side and to the detriment of his personal development. If so, if that happens it is surely the best marker that the staff don't have high hopes for him. If anything, the players for whom the best is expected are treated the other way...put in positions where the skills they need at senior level will be best challenged and developed even if it there are positions in the side he could play that would better benefit the side.
I completely agree and that is a large part of why I don't think he has an easy path to the first team. There appears to be an assumption that Moreno will leave the team and Lewis will "do a Trent" and take over as the LB understudy to Robertson.

What people either do not know or have forgotten is that Trent had proven himself to be too good for U23 football. He was 17/18 but he is tall, strong, athletic, quick and had the technical ability. Trent was not tactically brilliant but he was not often beaten at U23 level and his physique allowed him to make mistakes but recover fairly easily. He dominated fixtures and more often than not was the best player on the pitch. Whether he played at RB, CM or RW he was always a stand out. Despite this he came into the first team and was given a good few harsh lessons about defending before he got to the point he is now. Even as the best player on the pitch almost everytime at U23 level, he was vulnerable as a 1st team player.

Lewis does have certain similarities. He is captain of the U23 team. He has a fantastic technical ability and is in theory a systematic fit with the way he attacks from FB. However, he does not have the size or speed of TAA and he does not dominate fixtures (yet) in the way Trent did. He has himself been the target of opposition attacks in a way that Alexander-Arnold never was (for an example of this watch the Tottenham game at Anfield where he was repeatedly picked on by Spurs' wide players and made to look a fool by Marcus Edwards for the equaliser).

My worry for Adam Lewis is that if he is thrown into the first team then we will see the poor lad get absolutely savaged by Premier League attackers. In fact I find it hard to believe he won't be. He is simply not quick enough, not physically big enough and not tactically good enough for us yet.

His other major problem is what is behind him. Larouci has been very, very impressive for the U18s team and should be pushing for promotion to the U23 squad where, in my opinion, he will quickly take over as the first choice LB. Lewis has a lot to learn and an increasingly short window to learn it in. He is tailor made for a tough loan spell in League One and I expect him to struggle.