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Post-Match: Liverpool 4-3 Swansea

rupzzz

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3 points secured was the most important thing.

We scored lovely goals again as usual.

Nothing could be done about Shelvey's goal, Skrtel was always gonna get caught out with all the holding he does (should have trusted Agger to clear) and then the last goal was poor defending through and through.

Bringing Allen on was a good move.

We could have scored a few more.

Suarez still playing well despite not scoring for a bit, but you can sense that his goal is coming and when it does he'll go on a run of goals again.

6 points clear for 4th place with 11 games to go, and 4 points from top. Couldn't have asked for more at this stage.
 

Urban Achiever

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Listen, this CB debate is entering a state of madness.... people are just throwing around favourites and wishful dreams of either signing new super players to come in and save the entire defense or Kelly suddenly emerging as a new Thiago Silva.
We obviously have defensive challenges and our defensive players do make mistakes.... but if it's not the one it's the other and changing backline every game is not gonna do much of a difference.

Here is how I see it:

We have 4 very, very good CBs in Sakho, Agger, Skrterl and Kolo. They are all in the sub-top of world football (maybe Agger and Sakho even the top)... and are all established and highly experienced players. Wishing for an upgrade on players like that is complete and utter nonsense. People coming on here and wanting us to sign new players because these "don't work" or saying we are in desperate need of at least TWO new CBs have lost it or needs to go and support Chelsea or PSG or some other club who buys players like toys.

If you cannot make it work with players like Sakho, Agger and Skrtel.... we'll it sure as hell is a deeper lying problem.

I'm not saying they're flawless or that they are the absolutely best in the world, but they are top players and clearly good enough to defend against fuckin Swansea and Fulham. The problem is that the midfield offers no support which leaves them in no mans land having to either drop back and defend the box or go out of position and follow players up into the midfield. Yesterday Henderson and Coutinho were basically caught too far up the pitch for the entire game until Joe Allen came on.... You try being a defender in a system like that.

Secondly, many of our CB mistakes comes from Mignolet not coming out of his goal line....... Skrtel and Agger again and again have to defend his 6 yard box!! On crosses!! That is impossible to defend against and anyone who has played as a CB knows how hard, dangerous and shaky that shit is. Mignolet is not just poor at that.... he is scandalous!
He is the reason that Skrtel has to scissor kick the ball out of the 6 yard every other game.

The third point I want to make is that Glen Johnson is just not a good enough defender to be used in such a direct and forward line up. He gets caught out of his defensive position again and again in a game like yesterday... again, leaving the CBs insecure about whether to cover for him or stay in the middle.

How on earth do people expect our two CBs to cover for Gerrard, hendo and Cou in the middle.....
keep Bony tied down...
Defend the entire box + the 6 yard for Mignolet...
and drop out to back up or cover Johnsons side?

It's absolutely bonkers by people to go on about how poor they are and how much better we'll be when Kelly and Wisdom and Illori grows up. Or saying we need to go out and buy new top CBs.... Agger has been hunted by Barcelona for the last 4 windows...... they were in for him 2 months ago and yet people think it's him that's bad. Jesus.
International captains... Sakho even captain at PSG... and people say we badly need two new upgrades..... you couldn't make it up. How about the keeper takes care of the 6 yard, the midfielders defend the defense and the fullbacks are defenders not wingers....? then we can maybe evaluate how our no-good CBs actually perform.

The way Rodgers is doing it these days is expecting the CBs to keep all forwards tied down while digging into the midfield and breaking the waves, while they also cover the 6 yard..... Weird that he felt a need to change it, as the setup with Kolo/Agger and Cissokho has been keeping far better sides away from chances.
 

Chewbazza

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Sterling's pass for the first goal was almost as good as Gerrard's against Fulham.

I hope Suarez gets a goal soon, I'm worried after reading that he doesn't want to get injured before the World Cup means he's holding back a bit?
 

Urban Achiever

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Suarez must have a record in clear penalties NOT awarded...... yesterday in the second half... that was a clear penalty again.

Incredible the amount of times he's brought down with referees refusing to referee.

Especially when you give away cheap penalties to Bony in the other end.

Once again a poor decision by a referee that could have cost us the victory. He gives Swansea the cheapest of decisions for them to equalize and then in the other end denies us a clear one that would have won us the match.
Incredible.
 

costared

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Ref was really biased. Just seen the Pen against Skrtle again from an overhead view and Bony clearly threw himself at Skrtle conning the ref. There was a free kick against Johnson shortly after where the Swans player clearly stepped straight into Johnson and again the ref was conned and yet when Suarez was clearly fouled in the box he waved play on.
 

DeathOrGlory

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ptt said:
It also, in the long run, didn't work.
But conceding in nearly every game will?

The number one thing we need to fix in the summer is the defence and the midfield. Attacking players must be a last priority.
 

Uberkoen

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DeathOrGlory said:
But conceding in nearly every game will?

The number one thing we need to fix in the summer is the defence and the midfield. Attacking players must be a last priority.
UNLESS we can sign Benzema!
 

legalalien

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sportbilly1966 said:
He did play central
I don't think so. Granted, towards the end, after Sturridge had been subbed, he was all over the place, literally and metaphorically. For the most part, especially in the first half, he was linking with Sterling on the left. Which was pretty effective, of course, so what do I know, eh?
 

Uberkoen

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legalalien said:
I don't think so. Granted, towards the end, after Sturridge had been subbed, he was all over the place, literally and metaphorically. For the most part, especially in the first half, he was linking with Sterling on the left. Which was pretty effective, of course, so what do I know, eh?
You know it was pretty effective.
 

RichLFC

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Le_hunt said:
Shelvey wins the "coming back to bite us in the arse" award, leading Charlie Adam and Peter Crouch.
And like the above he thrives on space, as Adam has done against us before and after he came here. Crouch also benefits from the fact that all our backing options lack heading ability

Crouch did quite well here but Adam and Shelvey didnt really and that's because they don't like being pressed and teams knew this was easy to do against us as we didnt have the mobility or mentality to handle it. however when they move to a lesser club and as a team we tend usually to only press here and there against the stronger sides, they suddenly find themselves with room to pass though our defence, send our defence in to a panic with a set piece or have all the time in the world to shoot at goal

The main problem with selling Shelvey is that yet again we failed to properly upgrade talent wise. like with aspas, not sure alberto was rodgers own choice. Was the same with downing and over the years, quite a lot of others. Remember Riise. But as then, it didnt mean it was the wrong decision to move them on, we just have to get a bit better and show a bit more ambition in terms of replacing these players. Though with the odd internal prospect coming through like sterling that does also help

As for the side itself, we need a mobile ball winner in the midfield. Find another Mascherano would sort quite a few things out. But there will be people looking at Skrtel on 80k a week, Johnson on 110k and Agger on 90k and all 3 toeing 30 years of age and on a fair bit more than Sturridge and thinking there could be a problem. Wouldn't bin them all at once but it may have to be shaken up and one or two may have to make way. Those three for me have been maybe the poster boys for perhaps not achieving as much as maybe they might have done with a bit more mental strength, a bit more adaptability to cope with different coaching systems and ability to compartmentalise on and off field issues. Plus being able to stay fit. And be able to jump up for a header without fucking up...they may have been more loyal than some but for me they possibly lacked a bit of drive when things got flat and maybe not reached their respective potential levels. Something I suspect Rodgers might just have identified...

Oh and would rather Rodgers played the full time members than use Moses who just is a bit of a passenger. Is where I feel a bit sorry for Aspas, think he must know he is a last resort now. Though its a minor quibble
 

canucky008

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Barcelona have a very average defense. The reason why they get away with it us because they have a pitbull called Mascherano

We need Lucas to come back to shield the back four. As much as I love Gerrard, he is not a DM and is still learning it. The defensive slide in the penalty box a few weeks ago shows he's still climatising.
 

costared

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canucky008 said:
Barcelona have a very average defense. The reason why they get away with it us because they have a pitbull called Mascherano

We need Lucas to come back to shield the back four. As much as I love Gerrard, he is not a DM and is still learning it. The defensive slide in the penalty box a few weeks ago shows he's still climatising.
Lucas is no Mascherano and never will be. If he is so good why was he not doing the job better before he got injured?
 

Bobbinho

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Delighted with the result, 3 massive points gained, Spurs dropping points against Norwich, 4th place looking good now, but should be looking at pushing for that title...., we're within reach, just 4 points off the leaders with a better GD.
 

rippedshorts

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Urban Achiever said:
Listen, this CB debate is entering a state of madness.... people are just throwing around favourites and wishful dreams of either signing new super players to come in and save the entire defense or Kelly suddenly emerging as a new Thiago Silva.
We obviously have defensive challenges and our defensive players do make mistakes.... but if it's not the one it's the other and changing backline every game is not gonna do much of a difference.

Here is how I see it:

We have 4 very, very good CBs in Sakho, Agger, Skrterl and Kolo. They are all in the sub-top of world football (maybe Agger and Sakho even the top)... and are all established and highly experienced players. Wishing for an upgrade on players like that is complete and utter nonsense. People coming on here and wanting us to sign new players because these "don't work" or saying we are in desperate need of at least TWO new CBs have lost it or needs to go and support Chelsea or PSG or some other club who buys players like toys.

If you cannot make it work with players like Sakho, Agger and Skrtel.... we'll it sure as hell is a deeper lying problem.

I'm not saying they're flawless or that they are the absolutely best in the world, but they are top players and clearly good enough to defend against fuckin Swansea and Fulham. The problem is that the midfield offers no support which leaves them in no mans land having to either drop back and defend the box or go out of position and follow players up into the midfield. Yesterday Henderson and Coutinho were basically caught too far up the pitch for the entire game until Joe Allen came on.... You try being a defender in a system like that.

Secondly, many of our CB mistakes comes from Mignolet not coming out of his goal line....... Skrtel and Agger again and again have to defend his 6 yard box!! On crosses!! That is impossible to defend against and anyone who has played as a CB knows how hard, dangerous and shaky that shit is. Mignolet is not just poor at that.... he is scandalous!
He is the reason that Skrtel has to scissor kick the ball out of the 6 yard every other game.

The third point I want to make is that Glen Johnson is just not a good enough defender to be used in such a direct and forward line up. He gets caught out of his defensive position again and again in a game like yesterday... again, leaving the CBs insecure about whether to cover for him or stay in the middle.

How on earth do people expect our two CBs to cover for Gerrard, hendo and Cou in the middle.....
keep Bony tied down...
Defend the entire box + the 6 yard for Mignolet...
and drop out to back up or cover Johnsons side?

It's absolutely bonkers by people to go on about how poor they are and how much better we'll be when Kelly and Wisdom and Illori grows up. Or saying we need to go out and buy new top CBs.... Agger has been hunted by Barcelona for the last 4 windows...... they were in for him 2 months ago and yet people think it's him that's bad. Jesus.
International captains... Sakho even captain at PSG... and people say we badly need two new upgrades..... you couldn't make it up. How about the keeper takes care of the 6 yard, the midfielders defend the defense and the fullbacks are defenders not wingers....? then we can maybe evaluate how our no-good CBs actually perform.

The way Rodgers is doing it these days is expecting the CBs to keep all forwards tied down while digging into the midfield and breaking the waves, while they also cover the 6 yard..... Weird that he felt a need to change it, as the setup with Kolo/Agger and Cissokho has been keeping far better sides away from chances.
I think calling them top or sub-top of world football is stretching it and grossly overrates them.
They are all decent defenders, but definitely not top of world football material. Maybe they had displayed a few glimpse of sub-top of world football level, but I suppose class is permanent.

One more thing, Sakho was technically captain but wasn't a regular first teamer, much like Vermaelen in Arsenal I think. In addition, Barcelona generally hunt for defenders comfortable with the ball, instead of proper defensive awareness and ability; Agger is definitely a good defender, but I doubt we can call him world class yet.
 

ptt

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DeathOrGlory said:
But conceding in nearly every game will?

The number one thing we need to fix in the summer is the defence and the midfield. Attacking players must be a last priority.
No, we need to score more.
 

Bobbinho

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:cheers: "WE'LL SCORE ONE MORE THAN YOU!!!" :cheers: la la la, la la la, la la la la la la la lol
 

WrongIslander

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canucky008 said:
Barcelona have a very average defense. The reason why they get away with it us because they have a pitbull called Mascherano

We need Lucas to come back to shield the back four. As much as I love Gerrard, he is not a DM and is still learning it. The defensive slide in the penalty box a few weeks ago shows he's still climatising.
You do know that Mascherano plays CB right? Busquets is the man who plays in front of the back 4.
 

Mascot88

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On Skrtel's performance.

Yes he had a bad game, but nothing that we're not used to. On three key issues he was desperately unlucky.

1. The free kick/yellow card.

Not even a free kick in my view. He won the ball cleanly and whilst in complete control of his body. The view from the 'pundits' seems to be that the punishment was for 'afters' - but I can't see this. He momentum carried him into Shelvey after he win the ball, but I can't see any petulant reaction from Martin. He looked completely astonished by the decision.

2. The own goal.

Really unfortunate, and I can't see what he can do about that.

3. The penalty.

There wasn't a great deal in it, and in the context of shirt pulling, it's a nothing decision, and Bony played it well.

However, it's been coming. Skrtel has got away with some blatant tugs, and the media narrative has been building. We knew at some point a Ref would decide to give him his dues. However, if that's a Terry or - in the interests of avoiding bias - a Carra, that isn't given.

I, as always, just want to see consistency. If shirt pulling is against the rules then penalise it all. The argument that you'd see 10 penalties a game is nonsense. A) so what - they're the rules and B) players would do it.

The bigger penalty shout was on Suarez when he was clipped from behind.
 

canucky008

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WrongIslander said:
You do know that Mascherano plays CB right? Busquets is the man who plays in front of the back 4.
That's just this year
Last year he was the DM

Lucas is no Mascherano as someone mentioned earlier which I agree.

But he's better than Gerrard playing that position
 

koptician

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You know what I liked the most, apart from the 3 points? The fact that the team KNOWS that the defence is shaky but it doesn't affect our overall confidence going forward or our belief and drive to win.

Listen, I know there is a problem between defensive midfield and defence but I'm sure Brendan isn't burying his head in the sand about it. The chopping and changing doesn't help and Dagger and Jonno were starting after a long while out. I'd focus on our midfield three's workrate. See how much tighter we were after the fourth? We just need to stay focused like that when the opponent is in possession, and not just against Arsenal and Everton.

The game I am most scared of is against Chelsea at home. The most cynical team on the planet, but with quality in midfield to hurt us.
 

koptician

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canucky008 said:
That's just this year
Last year he was the DM

Lucas is no Mascherano as someone mentioned earlier which I agree.

But he's better than Gerrard playing that position
er...what?! Mascher has almost always been a central defender for Barca. In his first season they tried playing him as DM in the odd game but his lack of Barca-level passing fluency affected their play so they stuck him permanently as DM
 

Urban Achiever

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rippedshorts said:
I think calling them top or sub-top of world football is stretching it and grossly overrates them.
They are all decent defenders, but definitely not top of world football material. Maybe they had displayed a few glimpse of sub-top of world football level, but I suppose class is permanent.

One more thing, Sakho was technically captain but wasn't a regular first teamer, much like Vermaelen in Arsenal I think. In addition, Barcelona generally hunt for defenders comfortable with the ball, instead of proper defensive awareness and ability; Agger is definitely a good defender, but I doubt we can call him world class yet.
No it isn't stretching it at all... and no it doesn't overrate them. I'm deliberately not saying that they're the best... but to suggest they're not sub top players is expecting completely unrealistic players in that category. Agger, Sakho and Skrtel would all 100% be in the competition for a starting spot in any of the top 6 clubs in the EPL. They would all be in the mix as well in all other major leagues. There is not a single club in the world where especially Agger and Sakho would not be in the squad and get a fair share of games.... I could be wrong of course but theoretically I just don't see where they wouldn't be able to put in a shift.

Have you watched Bayerns CBs closely? They make just as many (and probably more) fucks ups than ours.... but just get away with it because they have absolute world class midfielders and the worlds best keeper behind them.... + of course fullbacks of a completely different calibre than us. Dante FX is a great footballer, but throw him into our defence and trust me he would have made no difference yesterday. A player like him often makes mistakes and is yet almost always named as one of the worlds best CBs.... he would not outshine Agger at LFC.

If Barcas defenders have no awarenes of defensive play how can they compete at the top level of world football and win the ChL again and again.... come on, man .... commenst like that are just so far fetched that it's beyond any reason. Again I'm not saying our CBs are the best in the world.... but if people won't recogninse that they're actually very, very good, I don't see any satisfaction just around the corner. Who on earth are people seriously expecting us to go out and buy if we cannot make our central defence work with players of that calibre??

I mean... we can probably all agree that Thiago Silva, Kompany and Ramos would be good players at LFC.... but why even begin this insane discussion when it's never ever gonna happen... and the players we already have are very, very good. To me it's like saying we should sell Coutinho and Sterling for being lousy finishers because we definately would be better with Costa and Xabi...... Yeah we probably would, but it's never gonna happen + the players we have are very good for our level + we can't afford upgrades on that level of talent anyway.....

As I said in my post I'm not saying that our CBs are the best or flawless... but they're at least sub top in the world and I would like to hear who people really think we could bring in as upgrades on them..... realistically.... who is it people think we could go out and buy, who could... in our defensive set-up... do a better job? Would people seriously (unless they're Arsenal fans) suggest that we sell two of our very, very good and experienced players to finance bringin in two new CBs + of course the obvious fullback issues and the forward and midfield transfers that has to come through this summer as well.....?

The players are just not as bad as they're made out to be... and made to look by the set-up. The problems stem from the midfield, fullbacks (which the Johnson performance yesterday showed), goalkeeping and other areas just as much. The CBs are not perfect or free of guilt... but they're nowhere near as bad as people claim.
 

Quagmire81

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koptician said:
er...what?! Mascher has almost always been a central defender for Barca. In his first season they tried playing him as DM in the odd game but his lack of Barca-level passing fluency affected their play so they stuck him permanently as DM
Sure it isn't due to their favor of Busquests in that position? I mean even Yaya Toure was sacrificed to that cause.
 

LFC-Orlando

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I don't recall seeing what you guys thought about Daniel's sub with Kolo. He was not happy. Was it tactical or was Brendan predicting a yellow/red card for Daniel?
 

indianscouser

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Hopefully this is the game after which our aim will be to look at the teams above us rather than the ones below us.
 

WrongIslander

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LFC-Orlando said:
I don't recall seeing what you guys thought about Daniel's sub with Kolo. He was not happy. Was it tactical or was Brendan predicting a yellow/red card for Daniel?
Agger isn't the strongest in the tackle at the best of times and in that game he was extremely weak, Bony was having a field day with him.
 

Quagmire81

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LFC-Orlando said:
I don't recall seeing what you guys thought about Daniel's sub with Kolo. He was not happy. Was it tactical or was Brendan predicting a yellow/red card for Daniel?
Knowing Agger, he was most likely unhappy with himself.

I found the sub a bit strange, I didn't get the impression he got a knock and couldn't continue, and I didn't think he was as poor as lots are making him out to be, besides it wasen't him that commited that pen.