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Post match: Liverpool v Chelsea (EPL 14/5/19 4.30pm)

Man of the match

  • Alisson

    Votes: 5 2.7%
  • Alexander-Arnold

    Votes: 3 1.6%
  • Matip

    Votes: 2 1.1%
  • Van Dijk

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Robertson

    Votes: 2 1.1%
  • Fabinho

    Votes: 24 12.8%
  • Keita [off 65’]

    Votes: 1 0.5%
  • Henderson [off 77’]

    Votes: 47 25.1%
  • Salah [f.cking GOAL of the season 53’, off 89’]

    Votes: 75 40.1%
  • Firmino

    Votes: 15 8.0%
  • Mane [GOAL 50’]

    Votes: 10 5.3%
  • Wijnaldum [on 65’]

    Votes: 1 0.5%
  • Milner [on 77’]

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Shaqiri [on 89’]

    Votes: 2 1.1%

  • Total voters
    187
  • Poll closed .

Prolix

Long Time Nemesis™
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Doesn't need to be reckless or excessive, just needs to be careless. About the only time a kick in the shins won't meet the 'careless' test is a 50/50 ball when both players put their legs into contact. Strictly speaking, Salah's reaction should not be relevant, but of course it is - and overselling it did not help his cause there.
Are there official guidelines on interpreting "carelessness"?
 


T.C.B

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I was right behind it and the fall didn't look remotely natural. I was surprised to discover later that he was actually touched at all. Can't blame the ref or lino for that one.
The fall was exaggerated for sure. At the time, at full speed it looked like a dive and I wasn't shouting for a Pen. I wouldn't blame the officials for not giving a pen either. At the same time he didn't book Mo for diving so he must have seen the contact and deemed it not enough to warrant a penalty.
 

[email protected]

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Are there official guidelines on interpreting "carelessness"?
Officially unofficial, if you get my drift; Referees are instructed to give a penalty to one Kane H, currently in the employ of Tottenham Hotspur FC in the event of:

a) Careless play; this can be defined in the minimum case as breathing harder in the vicinity of Kane (H)
 

Dane

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Have to say, one of the most infuriating comments these pundits make these days is "There was contact, but not enough"
I'd happily watch all football without pundits spouting their guff pre match, post match and at half time.
 



GratefulRed

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Careless, reckless and excessive force are guidance terms referees use as to whether a direct kick foul is just a foul, a caution or a sending off.

Careless is just a foul. Careless means you did one of the listed fouls, whether you meant to or not. Mistimed or an honest attempt at the ball but got a bit of the man first and didn’t really kick out with much force. The David Luiz situation was a classic case really. Didn’t swing wildly at Salah. Was trying to get the ball but Salah moves the ball quickly and he kicks his shin a bit. Foul, penalty but no yellow.

Reckless is a yellow. Little regard for your safety or that of others.

Excessive force is red. Force intended to hurt and no control in your tackle.

Intent really only is listed on hand balls and pass back to the goalkeeper. The rest is, did you do it or not, and David Luiz certainly kicked Salah. That was a clear penalty for me, but agree with everyone that Salah’s reaction was pretty silly.
 
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Quagmire81

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I agree with your analysis, except that Mo does not carry on for a second. Mo reacts to the kick in about 0.28 seconds (7 frames @ 25 fps); most medical texts suggest that a good reaction time is anywhere between 0.25 seconds and 0.35 seconds. So Mo's reaction is what you'd expect i.e. natural response, not simulation.
pro and cons.
pro there are contact but not very much. Cons, he didn't keep the ball in play and he clearly overact his fall to make it look worse. A bit too neymar'ish for my taste. I obviously only say this with our win in mind, and wouldn't complain had it been rewarded.
 

Flobs

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Contact alone doesn't dictate it is a penalty. One of the following has to apply.

A direct free kick is awarded if a player commits any of the following offences against an opponent in a manner considered by the referee to be careless, reckless or using excessive force:
  • charges
  • jumps at
  • kicks or attempts to kick
  • pushes
  • strikes or attempts to strike (including head-butt)
  • tackles or challenges
  • trips or attempts to trip
  • handles the ball deliberately
  • holds an opponent
  • impedes an opponent with contact
  • bites or spits at someone
  • throws an object at the ball, opponent or match official, or makes contact with the ball with a held object
Salah was kicked but I doubt anyone would see it as reckless or excessive and i honestly don't think the contact impeded him, especially as the ball was out of play before he hit the deck.
You are obviously disregarding careless in your interpretation.
 

Arminius

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I am trying to remember a match that ever felt like that one. By the end of the first half, I had a quiet sense of dread, that this was where it was all going to end, again. That was only partly assuaged by the flurry of pressure to start the second half. Then suddenly, Mane scores, and there is relief, but rationally still tension. I am actually surprised that there were actually around ~140 seconds between the goals, it felt even more immediate than that. From really out of nowhere, it is suddenly 2-0, and it has gone from dread through elation and relief to near-certainty. I genuinely cannot recall a match where I went from such heights of tension to confidence so quickly it was hard to make sense of.
 



donks

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The only saving grace is that Spurs and Utd will need results to guarantee CL next season. They SHOULD be at least trying. If Spurs put City out of the CL this week, there will be doubts in their minds about Saturday. Its going to need a "slip" of some nature for them to drop points
I was really confident they would drop points but watching some teams pathetic efforts against them recently, I'm not so sure. If they win their next 2 games do we really think they will drop points?
 

donks

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Have to say, one of the most infuriating comments these pundits make these days is "There was contact, but not enough"
I'd happily watch all football without pundits spouting their guff pre match, post match and at half time.
Have to disagree with you here. Contact does not mean its a penalty. For me the severity of contact is a definite factor in the rewarding of a penalty. I didn't think it was a penalty on Salah yesterday.
 



7th Earl

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As for Mo’s goal, he hit it flat, putting his foot right through, and it went like an arrow into the top corner. We’ve seen him curl lots of shots but we haven’t seen this sort of technique from him. Gives goalies another thing to think about.
Yes agreed. His preferred technique is inward curling side foot. There's been many times where he's over curled it and/or under hit and I've wished he put his laces through it.

Boy did he show he has that in his locker too!!!
 

Billy Biskix

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I am trying to remember a match that ever felt like that one. By the end of the first half, I had a quiet sense of dread, that this was where it was all going to end, again. That was only partly assuaged by the flurry of pressure to start the second half. Then suddenly, Mane scores, and there is relief, but rationally still tension. I am actually surprised that there were actually around ~140 seconds between the goals, it felt even more immediate than that. From really out of nowhere, it is suddenly 2-0, and it has gone from dread through elation and relief to near-certainty. I genuinely cannot recall a match where I went from such heights of tension to confidence so quickly it was hard to make sense of.
We were edgy in the first half. A couple of hoofs even from VVD. Nothing was really flowing for us. Chelsea were well set up and we were playing in front of them most of the time and they were dangerous on the break. The consensus in the queue for hot dogs was that we needed to up the pace.

We obviously made a conscious effort to try and blitz them in the first 10-15 minutes of the second half. Not something we've seen much this season with our new measured approach but suddenly the dial had been turned up and everything was being done at twice the speed it had in the first half and we were flooding their box too. I think maybe the loss of Rudiger helped us but it was the timing of the goals and the sheer brilliance of the second that killed Chelsea. Elation, relief, it was all those things. There was a great moment after the second when literally everyone on all sides of the ground was on their feet singing 'Allez, allez, allez'. I hope that came across on screen because it was genuinely spine-tingling. Getting goosebumps now just thinking about it.

We got a bit carried away after that and lost concentration for a while. Gini's introduction brought an end to the madness and suddenly we were our measured selves again. I keep thinking it's all over at points in almost every game now but I need to keep reminding myself that this is a very different Liverpool team to the ones we've known over the last 30 years. They have genuine belief, probably far more in themselves than we have in them as fans who have grown used to being continually disappointed.
 

Dane

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There was a great moment after the second when literally everyone on all sides of the ground was on their feet singing 'Allez, allez, allez'. I hope that came across on screen because it was genuinely spine-tingling. Getting goosebumps now just thinking about it.
It came across big time on my channel.
I was on the Kop for the CL game against City last season, and it's the best atmosphere I've ever experienced at Anfield.
Yesterday sounded every bit as good.
 



Alright Now

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We were edgy in the first half. A couple of hoofs even from VVD. Nothing was really flowing for us. Chelsea were well set up and we were playing in front of them most of the time and they were dangerous on the break. The consensus in the queue for hot dogs was that we needed to up the pace.

We obviously made a conscious effort to try and blitz them in the first 10-15 minutes of the second half. Not something we've seen much this season with our new measured approach but suddenly the dial had been turned up and everything was being done at twice the speed it had in the first half and we were flooding their box too. I think maybe the loss of Rudiger helped us but it was the timing of the goals and the sheer brilliance of the second that killed Chelsea. Elation, relief, it was all those things. There was a great moment after the second when literally everyone on all sides of the ground was on their feet singing 'Allez, allez, allez'. I hope that came across on screen because it was genuinely spine-tingling. Getting goosebumps now just thinking about it.

We got a bit carried away after that and lost concentration for a while. Gini's introduction brought an end to the madness and suddenly we were our measured selves again. I keep thinking it's all over at points in almost every game now but I need to keep reminding myself that this is a very different Liverpool team to the ones we've known over the last 30 years. They have genuine belief, probably far more in themselves than we have in them as fans who have grown used to being continually disappointed.
The Allez Allez came through beautifully. I particularly enjoy it when different sections sing it at a different pace to begin until it unifies in a cacophony throughout the stadium.

Just awesome.
 

Red over the water

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My tuppence worth on the penalty:

It's in the category of "I'm seen them given" but it is short of "stonewall penalty."

What I don't like is the lack of nuance from people in the game who are paid to comment, as they take it to extremes. They set out their stall with only two options: penalty or dive. I don't think that helps the conversation. It is quite possible for a penalty box incident to not be a penalty and also not be a dive, and that's how the ref saw it yesterday. There was some contact, but the ref deemed it insufficient to award a penalty, and also insufficient to book Mo for a dive.

To my mind, again, it's in the category of "I've seen them given" but it is short of "stonewall penalty." Obviously a 2-0 victory allows us to be a bit more magnanimous, as if we had drawn the game 0-0, I'd have been fuming about it! But such is the life of a football fan.

A separate argument is the reputation of players, and how that helps or hinders them. For example, Fernandinho plays in a silky Man City team and seems to get the benefit of the doubt a lot, but to my eyes it is very clear that he is one of the dirtiest players in the Prem. But it doesn't fit with the underlying narrative about Man City. At Liverpool we have our own version starting to emerge, but I'm not so sure I am seeing Fabinho get the same sort of rub of the green for sticking his foot in.

When it comes to strikers Harry Kane is a diver, no two ways about it. But there is a latent residue in the game that says only those 'Johnny Foreigners' dive, so Kane never gets pulled up for what he does, whereas Mo, by comparison, gets his arm pulled out of its socket in a judo throw by Ramos; and most weeks in the Prem he is routinely nudged, leaned on, pulled back and kicked; and whenever he goes down for it we frequently suffer the comment afterwards that he went down easily.

I'm not exactly sure what the answer is on the reputation thing, as sometimes a reputation is fair and sometimes it isn't. It might be that if we win the Prem it will attract an uptick in how our players are considered, and it might help us in the long run.
 
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Kenny Dalglish LFC Legend

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Some quick points.

1. Azpilicueta is a nasty niggly horrible player judged on yesterday. I never realised this before.

2. I think I´ved watched a different match to quite a few on here. First half we were measured, mature had it under control. The Chavs were looking to hit on the break, they had a few dangerous looking counters. I think anyone who expects us to control every match 100% obviously plays football on his play station in cheat mode. Two gilt edge chances for the Chavs after we went 2-0 apart from that nothing.

3. Sarri made himself look like a dope yesterday. ´´I thought it was a foul on Emerson but I don´t want to mention it¨, then don´t.

4. I get bored reading comments like, Oh if the Chavs had put some of those chances away it would have been different. Snore. What about if Liverpool had put some of their other chances away? Ever thought about that? Would have, could have, should have.

5. The amount of fans who make their own rules up as regards what is a peno/foul or not is ridiculous. For the record Salah could have stayed on his feet. But it was a peno 100%. What is it nowadays? I sometimes feel it´s cool to be a bit of a wimp/sensitive/ almost too obliging, I can´t quite put it into words. I´ll give an example. When I played footy with my big bro, I´d be in goal, I´d get the ball in my face, I´d start to cry and my bro would say, stop crying you big girls blouse, Ray Clemence wouldn´t cry. Nowadays it would be ´there, there, let it all out´´. Men should be men. I´m not talking about being macho, drinking, farting, burping, beating women, I´m talking about strength of character.

I hope that makes sense.
 

Semmy

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Have to say, one of the most infuriating comments these pundits make these days is "There was contact, but not enough"
I'd happily watch all football without pundits spouting their guff pre match, post match and at half time.
Mute button
 

Semmy

tho your dreams be tossed and blown
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JK's last answer here is probably the best thing he's ever said as our manager.

Deadset legend. Quite a few amongst us (I don't mean on here specifically, but the Red supporter base as a whole) would do well to remember his words.
Two cringeworthy moments:

“Top top top”
“Outstanding”

Otherwise loved it