Post Match: Liverpool v Man City (EPL 7/10/18 4.30pm)

Man of the match

  • Alisson

    Votes: 11 6.7%
  • Gomez

    Votes: 24 14.7%
  • Lovren

    Votes: 58 35.6%
  • Van Dijk

    Votes: 23 14.1%
  • Robertson

    Votes: 5 3.1%
  • Wijnaldum

    Votes: 15 9.2%
  • Milner (off 28’)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Henderson

    Votes: 26 16.0%
  • Salah

    Votes: 1 0.6%
  • Firmino (off 72')

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Mane

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Keita (on 28’)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Sturridge (on 72')

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    163
  • Poll closed .

Eintrachtfan

The convinced one
Joined
Dec 21, 2015
Messages
533
Likes
1,288
Some of us are pondering how long it needs for Keïta to adapt to the EPL and our style of play.
I want to remember how long AOC needed to adapt.
And he’s a player who knew the EPL.
So I think he needs time until he is ready. Once he has adapted he will be a beast in our midfield, for sure.
I watched him closer last season at Leipzig and I know what he’s capable of.
Let’s give him more time and let’s be patient.
 

Arminius

FSG PR plant
Moderator
Joined
Aug 13, 2008
Messages
20,060
Likes
22,207
Fernandinho should have had six or seven yellows. Mendy should have had three.

No, he didn’t disallow a perfectly good goal, or anything like that, but we didn’t really give him the opportunity.
We did give him the opportunity for even more penalty calls though.

As with most of the refereeing performances that I dislike, this was not one that I would attribute to bias. It was rather the usual interaction of a referee trying to 'manage the spectacle' instead of applying the rules with opponents willing to play with real cynicism to gain an advantage.
 

Caradoc

Y Goeden Bywyd
Joined
Jul 4, 2007
Messages
8,094
Likes
12,341
I could come out with all the theories in the world, all the tactical tweaks, selection tweaks and transfer tweaks. At the end of the day it means diddly sqwat for 2 very good reasons:

1. Klopp is the manager and he makes the decisions not me.

2. If I was so clever I would be manager, Klopp wouldn’t.


I think Geebo, not for the first time, sums things up very well in his post above (#299).

I would rather sit back, relax and enjoy the work of one of the best managers - possibly the best - we’ve had since Kenny’s first period as manager of this club.

Klopp has sorted out the defence and with the players already at his disposal I’m sure he will get our attack working again.

The fact that Klopp didn’t panic over issues and delays surrounding the signings of Keita and van Dijk as well as not pursuing the Fekir deal tells me an awful lot about how this man works and I find it very reassuring.

After the initial run of games, we’re in a very good place considering the fixtures and quality of opposition. Hopefully now that this phase has been successfully negotiated Klopp will be able to start using his first team squad to full effect. I’m sure he will do whatever needs doing to maintain and even improve on our excellent start.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jul 10, 2007
Messages
4,627
Likes
2,881
Somehow the problem of our forwards not firing has been extrapolated into a dip of form; I dont think anyone was expressly saying that until the discussion rumbled on, snowballing into a 'dip'. Was it garlic and herb, or tex-mex lol by any chance! No our forwards arent firing, its a real problem, and worthy of measured discussion. Added with we unsurprisingly looked leggy at the end of the intense period we have just travailed, the only solution I can think of is rub in some Raita. Apparently cucumber is a good revitaliser :eh?:
 

FGred

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2015
Messages
2,577
Likes
4,503
We did give him the opportunity for even more penalty calls though.

As with most of the refereeing performances that I dislike, this was not one that I would attribute to bias. It was rather the usual interaction of a referee trying to 'manage the spectacle' instead of applying the rules with opponents willing to play with real cynicism to gain an advantage.
I agree with you a point in case was when he went to his back pocket to give a red to Fernandickno he pulled the marker for the free kick instead as he probably remembered he was already on a yellow and decided to keep 11Vs11 on the pitch in such an important game.
 

Commando

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2016
Messages
1,131
Likes
2,901
Some of us are pondering how long it needs for Keïta to adapt to the EPL and our style of play.
I want to remember how long AOC needed to adapt.
And he’s a player who knew the EPL.
So I think he needs time until he is ready. Once he has adapted he will be a beast in our midfield, for sure.
I watched him closer last season at Leipzig and I know what he’s capable of.
Let’s give him more time and let’s be patient.
I think as fans we are aware of how Jurgen has held players back from full first team inclusion until he thinks that they’re ready (Robbo, Ox). It’s just that us footy fans are not by nature patient. The general opinion is that Keita and Fab are going to be beasts in our midfield and it’s hard not to want it now rather than later. I’m quite happy to let the boss do what he does and go along on the ride with him.
As someone once prayed “Lord grant to me the gift of patience. But grant it to me now”.
 

LeoT

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2008
Messages
2,272
Likes
820
Thing is if you play Spurs, Southampton, PSG, Napoli, Chelsea and Man City in a short space of time and come out with 3 wins and 2 draws (Ignore the league cup it was 8 reserve players for starters). would you ever call that a dip. It's an absolutely crazy schedule that even we won't face again this season. To come out of it level on points at the top and still in a positive position in Europe without really playing particularly well. I'll take that.
I agree, I'd have taken our current position if offered it at the start of the season.

I also think all the "lets get this No10", and "should have got that No8" stuff is nonsense, cos Football is a about Defense as well as Attack.
We have played a run of big games against teams that defend really, really well whilst maintaining a good attack. Klopp has clearly taken a bit away from the attack to keep it a bit tighter at the back.
I'm happy with that cos we can unleash the attack in the coming games starting with Huddersfield.
 

loudmouthmiller1892

Captain of the Sandon Hotel's debating team
Joined
Sep 9, 2018
Messages
75
Likes
29
You can add me to that lot...

Class and quality are permanent. Hopefully he can get his body right, which certainly isn't out of the question...see Daniel Sturridge.
Ye, good shout. I don't think there was ever anything wrong with Studge's body- I think it was his mental fortitude the whole time. I mean, he comes from good stock; his uncle Dean was a stocky little dynamo. I think his early years were a charmed existence. His uncle (and maybe his dad, I think) were pro footballers, he had talent himself and was the star of any academy he attended and probably attended a really good school. So, basically, he got his bum well and truly powdered and didn't know how to push himself. He shown a lot of maturity lately and has realized that the world doesn't owe him a living. He'll be a better player, and a better man, for it.
With Lallana his body has suffered a lot wear-and-tear because he gets stuck in and throws himself about. To look at him you wouldn't think his style of play would be so physical, but he really does muck in- I think he's really underrated. Also, he slaloms his way through games; in that weaves, twists and turns through the lines. This is very heavy on your joints and if you add the fact that he loves to launch himself into a tackle then you can expect knocks and sprains. What is more, when Jurgen first arrived I don't think anyone tried to impress him as much as Adam. He really ran his socks off, and I think he fatigued his muscles and tendons through sheer activity. That's why I can't understand why people would write off someone who applies himself so admirably. Snobbery on their part I think.
 

Arminius

FSG PR plant
Moderator
Joined
Aug 13, 2008
Messages
20,060
Likes
22,207
You can add me to that lot...

Class and quality are permanent. Hopefully he can get his body right, which certainly isn't out of the question...see Daniel Sturridge.
That is the English footy cliché I hate the most. It is just such utter nonsense, so obviously contradicted by simple observation, yet so frequently trotted out as an absolute truth.. 'Class' is indistinguishable from a good streak, and even where a player has proven they can sustain that level, it can be shocking ephemeral. Players age. Players lose confidence. Players get injured in minor ways that subtly change the way they play and take away their effectiveness, be it that first step or that first touch that just isn't there anymore. Major injuries take away real capacity and or confidence. Players have managers who fit them into a system that complements them perfectly, and then the system or the teammates change, and they never rediscover that form. If all of that wasn't true, Fowler would still be banging them in for us. As it was, he probably left too early, but he was already not the same player.

Lallana may never be able to be the player he was two years ago. Sturridge definitely won't reach his 13/14 form again in his career. Salah's career may have peaked in one magic season. Doesn't mean any of them won't be very good in the future, but the idea that all that is needed somehow is patience is a fallacy that trivializes the problems that a manager faces.
 

lfc.eddie

"¿Plata... O Plomo?"
Joined
Sep 18, 2006
Messages
49,978
Likes
37,103
That is the English footy cliché I hate the most. It is just such utter nonsense, so obviously contradicted by simple observation, yet so frequently trotted out as an absolute truth.. 'Class' is indistinguishable from a good streak, and even where a player has proven they can sustain that level, it can be shocking ephemeral. Players age. Players lose confidence. Players get injured in minor ways that subtly change the way they play and take away their effectiveness, be it that first step or that first touch that just isn't there anymore. Major injuries take away real capacity and or confidence. Players have managers who fit them into a system that complements them perfectly, and then the system or the teammates change, and they never rediscover that form. If all of that wasn't true, Fowler would still be banging them in for us. As it was, he probably left too early, but he was already not the same player.
someone wants to say hello....
 

Arminius

FSG PR plant
Moderator
Joined
Aug 13, 2008
Messages
20,060
Likes
22,207
someone wants to say hello....
Still brilliant, but not the player he was just three years ago. How long do you think he has at the level he is now? As many as Iniesta had after 30?

Anyway, my broader point is that we all but sacrificed two seasons on the altar of Sturridge's 'permanent class', and some great goals since notwithstanding, he has never come anywhere close to the player he was five years ago. Lallana may not ever be the player he was, we can only hope. Salah is still young, but last year might just have been lightning in a bottle.
 

lfc.eddie

"¿Plata... O Plomo?"
Joined
Sep 18, 2006
Messages
49,978
Likes
37,103
Still brilliant, but not the player he was just three years ago. How long do you think he has at the level he is now? As many as Iniesta had after 30?

Anyway, my broader point is that we all but sacrificed two seasons on the altar of Sturridge's 'permanent class', and some great goals since notwithstanding, he has never come anywhere close to the player he was five years ago. Lallana may not ever be the player he was, we can only hope. Salah is still young, but last year might just have been lightning in a bottle.
Lallana has never been "class" in my book, far from it. Sturridge shown he still has that goal scoring instinct, and an intelligent player will adjust the way they approach the game in order to stretch their career. If Sturridge starts to look at how to avoid injury while able to get into the right spot to score goals, he might just surprised a lot of people how long he could stick around in the game. Salah is too soon to be written off, it's only been 8 matches, there are at least 30 more to go.

Lastly Messi, is already 31, and Iniesta is 3 years older than him. I say he can have as many if not more than what Iniesta brought to Barcelona after his 30s.
 

SBYM

I'm just living the dream
Joined
Aug 22, 2016
Messages
5,431
Likes
14,289
That is the English footy cliché I hate the most. It is just such utter nonsense, so obviously contradicted by simple observation, yet so frequently trotted out as an absolute truth.. 'Class' is indistinguishable from a good streak, and even where a player has proven they can sustain that level, it can be shocking ephemeral. Players age. Players lose confidence. Players get injured in minor ways that subtly change the way they play and take away their effectiveness, be it that first step or that first touch that just isn't there anymore. Major injuries take away real capacity and or confidence. Players have managers who fit them into a system that complements them perfectly, and then the system or the teammates change, and they never rediscover that form. If all of that wasn't true, Fowler would still be banging them in for us. As it was, he probably left too early, but he was already not the same player.

Lallana may never be able to be the player he was two years ago. Sturridge definitely won't reach his 13/14 form again in his career. Salah's career may have peaked in one magic season. Doesn't mean any of them won't be very good in the future, but the idea that all that is needed somehow is patience is a fallacy that trivializes the problems that a manager faces.
Totally agree with all of this...my point is that Lallana's contribution to the team (and Sturridge's/Salah's, for that matter) has the potential to be excellent. They are not all of a sudden scrubbers incapable of meaningful output at the highest level (perhaps you disagree, I'm not sure??) Whether or not their physical (perhaps mental) demons are preventing them from doing that is another issue.

If Adam can get his body right - a daunting prospect given his history but I really can't think of a player more fragile than Sturridge and he seems to have done it - I will argue until I am blue in the face that his skill on the pitch (you obviously don't care for my expression so I will use another one) will allow him to be a useful part of the team.

It was not my intention to imply an expectation that 13/14 Sturridge or 16/17 Lallana were certainties to return. I'm not that much of a dickhead.
 
Last edited:

SBYM

I'm just living the dream
Joined
Aug 22, 2016
Messages
5,431
Likes
14,289
Some of us are pondering how long it needs for Keïta to adapt to the EPL and our style of play.
I want to remember how long AOC needed to adapt.
And he’s a player who knew the EPL.
So I think he needs time until he is ready. Once he has adapted he will be a beast in our midfield, for sure.
I watched him closer last season at Leipzig and I know what he’s capable of.
Let’s give him more time and let’s be patient.
One Roberto Firmino didn't exactly hit the ground running, either...
 

SirBillShankly

Joe and Holly's Dad.
Joined
Jan 8, 2011
Messages
8,648
Likes
7,171
Got to say City defended very well. Mendy defended brilliantly to prevent a Salah tap-in and in particular Laporte, I thought he was superb. Don't see Otamendi being a regular for them anymore which is a shame.
 

lfc.eddie

"¿Plata... O Plomo?"
Joined
Sep 18, 2006
Messages
49,978
Likes
37,103
Got to say City defended very well. Mendy defended brilliantly to prevent a Salah tap-in and in particular Laporte, I thought he was superb. Don't see Otamendi being a regular for them anymore which is a shame.
City used Mendy's pace to nullify Salah's runs, and Laporte has always been a top notch centre half, one I would have loved for us to sign if we didn't get Van Dijk back then. Our front 3 was way off their game in the last two to three weeks. Even the start of the season, West Ham match aside, we've been chugging along a bit more than I like to see. Which is why their defence looked good. Last season, when our players were all on form and we have a midfielder that could trouble them like Oxlade, they find it hard to play it out the back. Walker had a nightmare and so was Stones. Their defence weren't that great, we made them look better than they are, especially their left side.

The good thing is we are creating chances against the weaker side in bucket loads, the only thing we could hope for is two out of the three front men started to find their groove back.
 

loudmouthmiller1892

Captain of the Sandon Hotel's debating team
Joined
Sep 9, 2018
Messages
75
Likes
29
City used Mendy's pace to nullify Salah's runs, and Laporte has always been a top notch centre half, one I would have loved for us to sign if we didn't get Van Dijk back then. Our front 3 was way off their game in the last two to three weeks. Even the start of the season, West Ham match aside, we've been chugging along a bit more than I like to see. Which is why their defence looked good. Last season, when our players were all on form and we have a midfielder that could trouble them like Oxlade, they find it hard to play it out the back. Walker had a nightmare and so was Stones. Their defence weren't that great, we made them look better than they are, especially their left side.

The good thing is we are creating chances against the weaker side in bucket loads, the only thing we could hope for is two out of the three front men started to find their groove back.
One thing that must be mentioned is the fact some of the opposing players we line up against are bloody good! You can't negate other people's quality you can only nullify it. City's side is full of worldies and we handled them. What this game proved though is that Pep and Kloppo are good defensive manager, but they choose not because they want the game to be as beautiful as possible. Think of Mourinho: this approach is not something he falls back on when he needs to a bit stingy- this is his philosophy! I think Kloppo learnt from that encounter we had with Napoli. We got punished and ended up with zero, and it could have happened against City (regardless of the pen), but we saw it out.
 

epsomred

Give yourselves the chance to be heros
Joined
May 16, 2018
Messages
229
Likes
355
I think we need to start regularly playing sturridge, solanke and shaqiri in cup games and against lower premier league opposition particularly at home. Mo and mane already look jaded to me.
 

Caradoc

Y Goeden Bywyd
Joined
Jul 4, 2007
Messages
8,094
Likes
12,341
Still brilliant, but not the player he was just three years ago. How long do you think he has at the level he is now? As many as Iniesta had after 30?

Anyway, my broader point is that we all but sacrificed two seasons on the altar of Sturridge's 'permanent class', and some great goals since notwithstanding, he has never come anywhere close to the player he was five years ago. Lallana may not ever be the player he was, we can only hope. Salah is still young, but last year might just have been lightning in a bottle.

I think you miss the point completely. And the phrase or cliché as you put it is actually ‘Form is temporary, class is permanent’. And it is true to a point. Players will have poor runs because they lose their form but they don’t stop being the player they are. Top class players may slow up with age but they find ways to compensate. They can still do things others can’t. And are we really saying that Pelé, Eusebio, Puskas, Moore, Yashin, Maldini ceased to be class footballers when they hung up their boots for the last time?

I remember seeing Bob Latchford make his debut for Newport County at Somerton Park. By that stage Latchford was in his mid-30s and had slowed up physically otherwise he would have still been playing top level football. But he made up for that with his speed of thinking and quality execution. He could still do things that the other 21 players on the pitch could only dream of. Class is relative but also permanent. That’s what it means.

Take any saying (or cliché) literally and they very quickly fall apart under closer scrutiny. Its not meant to be taken literally but it does convey a perfectly valid sentiment that is meaningful if taken in context.
 
Last edited:

Coddite84

New Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2018
Messages
34
Likes
35
Point isn't bad but we need to sharpen up, up top too many key chamces not put away, Mo looked active again today but should have done better when he was through. Bobby and Mane need to do a bit more as they are off the pqce just now.
 

FGred

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2015
Messages
2,577
Likes
4,503
Having watched the match a couple of times I would say that the penalty would not have been given as before that Salah carrying the ball forward got kicked and should have had a free kick hence why I think justice was done when Mahrez missed the penalty
 



Joined
Nov 2, 2013
Messages
62
Likes
86
A few days off I know, but just thinking about the match and I just think we need to try something different. Can't say what, but something along the lines of shifting the front 3 around and bringing Shaqiri on for one of the midfield 3. Maybe Mo central, Shaq wing? Firmino back, Mo up top? Something different though. Just my thoughts... Also, i don't think Sturridge from the start will work, but he does need to get subbed on earlier at like the 75min mark.
 

Red over the water

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 13, 2018
Messages
703
Likes
1,214
Man City are better in defence than they were. Mendy is an upgrade. Laporte is an upgrade on Kompany (current player, or Kompany of last season, but not prime Kompany). Otamendi always has mistakes in him. Fancies himself as a hard knock but not an elite player. Stones is young and has had his fair share of mistakes, but there are signs he is emerging as a good player now. All this is to say no one will get much out of that defence all season.

If our strikers were at their best, arguably we’d have made more of one or two half chances, but we shouldn’t overdo the analysis and introspection. Any match against Man City can go either way as they are a very good side indeed. At this stage of the season, an early league game, it was more important to not lose than anything else. We keep our unbeaten run going, they get a point away to their probable biggest rivals, and everyone goes home happy-ish. Or at least not too disappointed.

It’s a long season and there’s more to come from this Liverpool team. The defence has been the best bit so far. The midfield blend isn’t quite there, but it will come and Fabinho and Keita will be integrated more. The attack hasn’t been terrible but it can, and will, get better. And even at this early stage we’ve seen decent cameos from Shaqiri and Sturridge to help the team.

There’s a lot to be pleased about and a lot to look forward to. Gutted it’s an international break, but hopefully our lads come back fit and ready to kick on against a couple of lower teams in the next two matches.
 

RedLar

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2014
Messages
1,381
Likes
1,232
That is the English footy cliché I hate the most. It is just such utter nonsense, so obviously contradicted by simple observation, yet so frequently trotted out as an absolute truth.. 'Class' is indistinguishable from a good streak, and even where a player has proven they can sustain that level, it can be shocking ephemeral. Players age. Players lose confidence. Players get injured in minor ways that subtly change the way they play and take away their effectiveness, be it that first step or that first touch that just isn't there anymore. Major injuries take away real capacity and or confidence. Players have managers who fit them into a system that complements them perfectly, and then the system or the teammates change, and they never rediscover that form. If all of that wasn't true, Fowler would still be banging them in for us. As it was, he probably left too early, but he was already not the same player.

Lallana may never be able to be the player he was two years ago. Sturridge definitely won't reach his 13/14 form again in his career. Salah's career may have peaked in one magic season. Doesn't mean any of them won't be very good in the future, but the idea that all that is needed somehow is patience is a fallacy that trivializes the problems that a manager faces.
Agree with all that. Its and English Cliche that footy fans tend to use about their own players. Your Harry Kane, Dele Allis of the world. The English football squad who are generally overrated. I don't think Hary Kane is that good and, despite his boot at the World Cup, he was largely peripheral in England's important matches. Yet I am sure Spurs fans consider him "class". Perhaps many reds fans too. Alli was ostensibly rubbish at the World Cup. Henderson, on the other hand, was his reliable self, and therefore classy at the World Cup, even if I am not big on him.

IMHO, class is the ability to produce what you do comfortably (in your domestic league) at the very top level (World Cup or Champions League). Messi is fucking class. Ronaldo is fucking class. They have both proven it over and over. Hazard has been EPL class so far this season. Salah was class last season. VVD oozes class. But that might be a response to his seeming cool nerves in all situations. For me - Bobby is class, but been off the boil of late perhaps.

So, should I be saying Salah and Bobby are just form players? No! I would return to my definition of class as being the ability to reproduce at the very top level. If you can do it consistently, then that's just a plus. Doesn't make you less classy.

When we play good sides like City and Chelsea is when we want our so-called "class" players to stand up and be counted. Sometimes, it can be argued we have a passenger or two, because they are not good enough. I have watched games against top opposition and thought to myself, he is clearly not good enough yet, or never has been. Then, we might have our class players who are simply out of form. Our front 3 of late.

I'd finally argue that TOP CLASS players are those who can simply take a game by the scruff of the neck, and win it for you. Messi, Ronaldo, Gerrard, Hazard, etc. It is debateable our TOP CLASS players have arrived yet for this season. VVD? Allison? Yeah them two have been good.
 

lfc.eddie

"¿Plata... O Plomo?"
Joined
Sep 18, 2006
Messages
49,978
Likes
37,103
I'd finally argue that TOP CLASS players are those who can simply take a game by the scruff of the neck, and win it for you. Messi, Ronaldo, Gerrard, Hazard, etc. It is debateable our TOP CLASS players have arrived yet for this season. VVD? Allison? Yeah them two have been good.
I wouldn't put Hazard in the same category as those first 3 names. Ronaldo and Messi if from another planet, and since 2004/05 till 2013/14 season, Gerrard been the goto guy to bail us out. Hazard's been hot one season and cold another, and while playing so far forward and having the team built around his attack, he didn't exactly tear the league into pieces. I would rate Aguero and Kane much higher than Hazard.