Post match: Liverpool v Spurs (EPL 31/3/2019 4.30pm)

Man of the match

  • Alisson

    Votes: 1 0.6%
  • Alexander-Arnold

    Votes: 10 5.7%
  • Matip

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Van Dijk

    Votes: 84 48.3%
  • Robertson

    Votes: 53 30.5%
  • Henderson [off 77’]

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Milner [off 77’]

    Votes: 1 0.6%
  • Wijnaldum

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Salah [off 90+3’]

    Votes: 4 2.3%
  • Mane

    Votes: 2 1.1%
  • Firmino [GOAL 15’]

    Votes: 14 8.0%
  • Origi [on 77]

    Votes: 1 0.6%
  • Fabinho [on 77’]

    Votes: 4 2.3%
  • Lovren [on 90+3’]

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    174
  • Poll closed .

Quicksand

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Ask anyone to select their ideal 3 man midfield for LFC. With everyone fit.....
I reckon its Fabinho, Ox and Gini for me at least.
Does that mean there is no place at the club for Hendo, Milner, Keita or Lallana. No, it means we have strength when required.
Saying you prefer Fabinho for what he brings to the team isnt Hendo bashing.
Saying we prefer a front 3 without Sturridge is easier, its esaily explained and isnt Sturridge bashing.
Hendo gets more stick than most, but selecting a better fit for the team is reasonable.
 

Bob8

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I agree that the bashing is uncalled for; however I think it is a function of that fact that in big games Henderson seems to be preferred to Fabinho.

The above is not Henderson's fault. As time passes there are more who quite simply see Fabinho as a better player ( I tend to agree).
Henderson has been a great servant to this club, but I think for us to reach the levels we desire it may be that his role will need to diminish. He has never, nor will he ever be world class, he is however a very tidy footballer who gives his all when he plays and thats all we can ask for. If he were to take up a squad role next season I think it would be great for us as a club.

The catch of course with all this is opinion, it doesn't justify the behaviour of our fans but it is a a way for them to vent their frustration.

If I am frank next season I think our midfield needs to change, I have for a long time backed them and defended them but if we are to go to the next level and consistently fight for top honours we need more consistent quality. While we have been workmanlike and energetic the DeBruyne's and Silvas of this world have shown us that you can have both of those traits and still have quality to create as well.

That means Henderson/Milner/Gini all have questions over their head .....if 2 out of those 3 were in rotation that maybe ok - but I geniunely think we need a starting 3 above these guys - that may be Fabinho/Keita/Ox but 2 of those have major questions over them for different reasons right now.
I agree with most of your post, I also believe Fabinho is the better DM out of the two, and I think he has the potential to be top3 DM in the world. I don't think it ever was possible for Hendo to reach that level. What annoys me with people's perception of Hendo is that he doesn't get the recognition he deserves, as he is a very good DM, one of the best in premier league. He just never had the same potential in him to be one of the best in the world, but I respect him a lot for playing at the top of his level week in week out so many years for us. And probably will for another 1-3 years.

I don't agree with that for next season the midfield needs to change. I would say that we maybe need one signing to come in, and one of Lallana or Milner needs to go but that's enough for me.
 

Bob8

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Most people have their short list of favourite players, and the problem with a public forum is that when one of those favourites comes in for criticism, the defensive mechanism goes into overdrive.

I haven't seen any over the top criticism of Henderson, yet the haters label gets rolled out, saying he's an easy target etc.

That's forum life for ya
I got my pitchfork out after he was called for not having any game intelligence whatsoever, and the argument behind it was that 'he was spraying balls out wide' what was exactly what Klopp asked for, he said it in his interview after the game.

The problem for me is that with Hendo there never seems to be any proper arguments backed by factual proof when he gets criticised.
 

Dane

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I got my pitchfork out after he was called for not having any game intelligence whatsoever, and the argument behind it was that 'he was spraying balls out wide' what was exactly what Klopp asked for, he said it in his interview after the game.

The problem for me is that with Hendo there never seems to be any proper arguments backed by factual proof when he gets criticised.
Fair enough, I didn't see that one.
Most if not all of the posts I've read were fairly respectful towards him.
Some people just rate others higher.
 

Bob8

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Fair enough, I didn't see that one.
Most if not all of the posts I've read were fairly respectful towards him.
Some people just rate others higher.
Tbf most of the posts, after the one I was speaking of, were more than respectful.
 

Arminius

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I agree with most of your post, I also believe Fabinho is the better DM out of the two, and I think he has the potential to be top3 DM in the world. I don't think it ever was possible for Hendo to reach that level. What annoys me with people's perception of Hendo is that he doesn't get the recognition he deserves, as he is a very good DM, one of the best in premier league. He just never had the same potential in him to be one of the best in the world, but I respect him a lot for playing at the top of his level week in week out so many years for us. And probably will for another 1-3 years.

I don't agree with that for next season the midfield needs to change. I would say that we maybe need one signing to come in, and one of Lallana or Milner needs to go but that's enough for me.
I just don't think he is a DM. Henderson gets it done there, and his main limitations there are in possession, not defensive. My guess is that he is probably most comfortable as a CM in 4-4-2 or similar, classic box-to-box, but he has played a deeper role for us out of necessity much of the time. Fabinho made a remarkable difference on Sunday, but I think that could just as easily have happened with Milner off and Henderson moving forward.
 

Bob8

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I just don't think he is a DM. Henderson gets it done there, and his main limitations there are in possession, not defensive. My guess is that he is probably most comfortable as a CM in 4-4-2 or similar, classic box-to-box, but he has played a deeper role for us out of necessity much of the time. Fabinho made a remarkable difference on Sunday, but I think that could just as easily have happened with Milner off and Henderson moving forward.
Agreed, I think the one limitation with that brexit midfield is that they are very similar to each other. I think Carra has said the same quite a few times. Fabinho does bring a very different dimension to it.
 

Cologne-Liverpool

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Agreed, I think the one limitation with that brexit midfield is that they are very similar to each other. I think Carra has said the same quite a few times. Fabinho does bring a very different dimension to it.
What's a "brexit midfield?" They stop listening to Jürgen and demand sovereignity from ze German and the rest of the team? :shocked:
 

Arminius

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What's a "brexit midfield?" They stop listening to Jürgen and demand sovereignity from ze German and the rest of the team? :shocked:
No, it is where Wijnaldum is determined to play 4-3-3, Henderson is old school 4-4-2, and Milner is playing 4-2-3-1, and they vote on a new formation every throw-in and choose their own favourite again.
 

jim bouki

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Just laughable, he stopped at least 3 of their attacks by reading the play. That’s game intelligence.
He also did the pass to Robbo which Robbo then assists Firmino. That’s game intelligence.

He was poor 2nd half, as were the entire midfield. I think thats why he gets defended, its so blatantly biased and woefully sad to only highlight his poor points. Van Dijk for example who was immense also gave the ball away with sloppy passing and they got a free shot on goal.. All forgotten yet Henderson does similar and he is vilified. Its embarrassing.

The problem is and this is why I believe Henderson gets defended by a few in here. You could walk through that game and extract a massive list of every single player and the poor decisions or mistakes they made. Hell Alisson was a walking fucking characture of Mings the Merciless in goal for 90 minutes, full of panic sliced passes, wrong decisions.. Not seen a whiff of his name.. Salah missed several chances which if he had finished during the period of dominance we would have put them to the sword. Gini and Milner were basically none existent for 90 minutes yet not a peep from anyone.

If you want to point out where Henderson went wrong, by all means go for it. But be fair, if you do that for him do it for the rest. Look at why he played badly (if he did in your eyes). Some of the posts of what he did wrong are written by a 12 year old whose only exposure to football is Match of the Day and Fifa.

If we are calling a spade a spade, your posting history is abysmal.
The difference is how many points has alisson saved us this year? How many points has salah gained for us with his goals? Even though he played bad he still had a winning contribution. Van Dijk is the player of the year so i'm sure we can afford him one misplaced pass in one game! And his 2 v 1 defending was just as crucial to our win as the own goal! These players have proved invaluable to us over the course of the season so they get a bit of leeway in terms of one bad performance. On the contrary how many times this year has henderson grabbed the game by the scruff of the neck when the game is on the line and stamped his authority on a game? Or demanded the ball and dictated the tempo of a game when the game is in the balance? There was 3 occasions in the first half alone when he went half heartedly into 50/50 challenges and lost them all! He goes missing when the going gets tough which as a captain is completely unacceptable. The only thing i agree with you on is that the other 2 midfielders were equally as bad but they don't get half the slack because hendo as captain bears the brunt of the criticism.
 
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Monument Mark

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A lot of talk about our luck with the winning goal.

But wasn't Son offside for their equaliser?

To me, he's clearly in an offside position and interfering with play as he's sandwiched right in between Allison and Matip (none of our backline, incidentally, were playing Son on).

I'm surprised this seems to have been overlooked.
 

Arminius

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A lot of talk about our luck with the winning goal.

But wasn't Son offside for their equaliser?

To me, he's clearly in an offside position and interfering with play as he's sandwiched right in between Allison and Matip (none of our backline, incidentally, were playing Son on).

I'm surprised this seems to have been overlooked.
Matip has no play on the ball when Moura is approaching it, Matip has already missed an interception. Alisson's view and path to the ball and Moura are not obstructed by Song. The only sense in which his position is affecting play is that his run has pulled Matip back a little, and that is not considered interfering with play. That 2016 interpretation makes it tougher on defenders, but this particular call is consistent.
 

Monument Mark

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Matip has no play on the ball when Moura is approaching it, Matip has already missed an interception. Alisson's view and path to the ball and Moura are not obstructed by Song. The only sense in which his position is affecting play is that his run has pulled Matip back a little, and that is not considered interfering with play. That 2016 interpretation makes it tougher on defenders, but this particular call is consistent.
We can agree to differ on that one. It all happened so very quickly I wouldn't fault the linesman - I had to watch several times. When Eriksen made the pass, it looks to me as if Allison's view would have been obscured so I'd say that's relevant because Son was offside at that point. For what it's worth, one of our players was offside for our second goal. If you watch the 20 or so minute review of the game on LFC TV there's a great moment when the presenter (sorry can't remember his name but not Neil Mellor) suddenly realises that - and moves on quickly. The other bit of Spurs luck is the argument about the moving ball when Harry Kane took the free kick. Like the possible offside, it's often simply down to the referee in the heat of the moment and, as you know, the precise football laws can get overlooked. As the saying goes, we've seen them given.
 

indianaredman96

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It's Tues morning in Indiana and I just came down from the thrill that overcame me when the ball rolled over the line.
Loris should have caught that in his sleep, but he didn't.
Son on one side of a 2 v 1 break should be a goal, but it wasn't.
I was called by my daughter right after the final whistle who simply said " The Reds are meant to win this " and hung up.

As far as who is the best midfield , It is a shame that Hendo simply isn't as good as Fab.
Cause for all the bashing, I have seen his leadership on the pitch win us games as well. He helped us in the early season and basically ushered in his replacement Fabinho.
Gini has had world class performances, and some not so, but as helped us win games along the way.
Sturge's late goal vs Chelsea, Shaq scoring the brace against Man U. and hell even Lallana was a MOTM for me once along the way.
My point is that if there has ever been a year that the whole team together has willed this team to win. It is now

I love this team and am enjoying and agonizing this run at the same time, but wouldn't expect anything else.
Maybe my 27 year old daughter is right .
 

costared

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This title chase stuff is genuinely not enjoyable. Its excruciating to watch.

Spurs can certainly feel a little hard done by, but I felt they really only competed from the 45th minute to their goal in the 70th minute. We stepped up as soon as they equalised. We really needed to get the 2nd goal when we were on top, but thankfully it didn't cost us. Robbo was my MOTM and I also thought Trent was very good.

I don't want to turn this into another Hendo bashing, but he has was poor yesterday. I actually like him and think he is good value in the squad, but Fabinho is hands down our best DM and she showed that in his brief cameo yesterday. Yes.... Ginnie and Milner were also quiet and up against quality opponents, but Hendo turned the ball over numerous times and I was really unsure on whether his role was to screen, push forward or something else. To me, it looked even Hendo himself was unsure.

Another slightly negative aspect for me was Alisson. I know this will be an EXTREMELY unpopular opinion on here, but I am yet to be convinced and fully won over by his displays this season. Good keeper no doubt, and an obvious improvement on Karius, but I cant help but feel our brilliant back 4 and conservative midfield protect his short comings. I certainly don't think he has any business being discussed among the worlds best at the moment.
I do not agree that Spurs were hard done by. They were actually lucky not to concede a penalty for handball. When our free kick was hit at their wall it opened up and the shot was deflected by an arm ( I think Kane) that was about 6 inches from the bodyand moving towards the ball.
 

Limiescouse

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I got my pitchfork out after he was called for not having any game intelligence whatsoever, and the argument behind it was that 'he was spraying balls out wide' what was exactly what Klopp asked for, he said it in his interview after the game.

The problem for me is that with Hendo there never seems to be any proper arguments backed by factual proof when he gets criticised.
He doesnt score enough goals. We bought him because for a young lad his production was actually very high (look at every goal Sunderland scored in the 2 years prior and it would be rare to see one in which he did not make a key pass). He did not score enough goals himself though and so was challenged to start adding more of those to his game, something that was needed to take him from a key player on a good side to an excellent player who could thrive in other environments. As dumb as it sounds, for most midfielders that is actually a learned habit. It did not come naturally to Lampard and it did not come naturally to Gerrard, nor did either establish themselves in the first team with this trait already developed. At the time Hendo took on this responsibility he was still younger than Gerrard was when he finally fulfilled his potential to start becoming a regular scorer of goals. Then a year later his role was completely changed and he was tasked with a whole different set of elements to try and add to his game.
 

Limiescouse

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I do not agree that Spurs were hard done by. They were actually lucky not to concede a penalty for handball. When our free kick was hit at their wall it opened up and the shot was deflected by an arm ( I think Kane) that was about 6 inches from the bodyand moving towards the ball.
The luck narrative requires us to treat the game as if it started the moment Sissoko got the ball on the break away. We had 2 moments of "luck" in quick succession from that point. As I said earlier in the thread though, Spurs were only level because they have enjoyed large slices of luck in the 85 minutes prior (their goal, Mane's curler just wide with Loris rooted, Virgil's missed free header and Bobby's subsequent slow reaction, the Divok free kick just squirming wide.)
 

Spitfire

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I agree with most of your post, I also believe Fabinho is the better DM out of the two, and I think he has the potential to be top3 DM in the world. I don't think it ever was possible for Hendo to reach that level. What annoys me with people's perception of Hendo is that he doesn't get the recognition he deserves, as he is a very good DM, one of the best in premier league. He just never had the same potential in him to be one of the best in the world, but I respect him a lot for playing at the top of his level week in week out so many years for us. And probably will for another 1-3 years.

I don't agree with that for next season the midfield needs to change. I would say that we maybe need one signing to come in, and one of Lallana or Milner needs to go but that's enough for me.
Personnel wise thats about what I inferred. I guess I would ask would you be happy if our starting three was the same as it is this season.

That does make the assumption that Keita and Ox hit the standards we think they can. If so - then we will be fine and arguably have a new 'starting 3'. Thats change in my book.......
 

LeoT

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I think Henderson was triggering much of our quick play in the first 35 minutes, and we could easily have been 3:0 up and out of sight by the 35 minute.
Yes Henderson has his faults, but the team seems to move the ball much more quickly with him there, because he always moves the ball quickly.
I think Klopp sees that so he picks Henderson for big home matches.

Fabinho definitely made a huge difference when he came on,
However he was part of a double-sub. I believe the shift in power in the game was as much about the change of shape as the quality of the players.

Personally speaking I'm a huge Gini fan, but would have subbed Gini after 60 min, he was the midfielder who looked really leggy and we were losing the mid-field battle because of it.
 

LeoT

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He doesnt score enough goals. We bought him because for a young lad his production was actually very high (look at every goal Sunderland scored in the 2 years prior and it would be rare to see one in which he did not make a key pass). He did not score enough goals himself though and so was challenged to start adding more of those to his game, something that was needed to take him from a key player on a good side to an excellent player who could thrive in other environments. As dumb as it sounds, for most midfielders that is actually a learned habit. It did not come naturally to Lampard and it did not come naturally to Gerrard, nor did either establish themselves in the first team with this trait already developed. At the time Hendo took on this responsibility he was still younger than Gerrard was when he finally fulfilled his potential to start becoming a regular scorer of goals. Then a year later his role was completely changed and he was tasked with a whole different set of elements to try and add to his game.
Hendo now plays the same position as Mascherano and Lucas did. They are not there to score goals.

They don't go into the opponent's box for attacking corners like defenders do.
They cover the defensive space when the other players in the team go on a break.
When the full backs burst forward, they cover their space.
They win the ball, and then move it quickly to a player in a safer or more attacking position.
etc...

...scoring goals from this position is a bonus, not a requirement, not something to be judged on.
 

Limiescouse

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It is one of the criticisms against using him further forward in addition to Fabinho
 

Iluvatar

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Nice that Klopp agrees with the majority of us;

Klopp: "We didn't adapt quickly enough to Spurs' system change but that won't happen again. It will be an interesting game on Friday night."
 



Bob8

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He doesnt score enough goals. We bought him because for a young lad his production was actually very high (look at every goal Sunderland scored in the 2 years prior and it would be rare to see one in which he did not make a key pass). He did not score enough goals himself though and so was challenged to start adding more of those to his game, something that was needed to take him from a key player on a good side to an excellent player who could thrive in other environments. As dumb as it sounds, for most midfielders that is actually a learned habit. It did not come naturally to Lampard and it did not come naturally to Gerrard, nor did either establish themselves in the first team with this trait already developed. At the time Hendo took on this responsibility he was still younger than Gerrard was when he finally fulfilled his potential to start becoming a regular scorer of goals. Then a year later his role was completely changed and he was tasked with a whole different set of elements to try and add to his game.
It was the time of Damien Comolli and the moneyball idea behind our signings. That was a waste of time and money. lol Only good thing we did that summer was the signing of Hendo. And he turned out to be a very different player than what we thought he would've been. He could shoot more often, and I believe as a whole we need more goals from our midfield.

Personnel wise thats about what I inferred. I guess I would ask would you be happy if our starting three was the same as it is this season.

That does make the assumption that Keita and Ox hit the standards we think they can. If so - then we will be fine and arguably have a new 'starting 3'. Thats change in my book.......
I wouldn't be happy as that would mean at least one of the big money signings we made last summer wouldn't be in our starting eleven after one year of settling into the club. I think we are on the same page here, I just interpreted your need for change as something more dramatic than it was.