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Post match: Man Utd v Liverpool (20/10/19 4.30pm)

Man of the match

  • Alisson

    Votes: 1 0.8%
  • Alexander-Arnold

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Matip

    Votes: 6 4.8%
  • Van Dijk

    Votes: 22 17.5%
  • Robertson

    Votes: 18 14.3%
  • Fabinho

    Votes: 20 15.9%
  • Henderson [off 71’]

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Wijnaldum [off 82’]

    Votes: 28 22.2%
  • Origi [off 60’]

    Votes: 3 2.4%
  • Firmino

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Mane

    Votes: 5 4.0%
  • Oxlade-Chamberlain [on 60’]

    Votes: 16 12.7%
  • Lallana [on 71’, GOAL 85’]

    Votes: 66 52.4%
  • Keita [on 82’]

    Votes: 15 11.9%

  • Total voters
    126
  • Poll closed .


Red over the water

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 13, 2018
Messages
2,295
I think VAR use needs to evolve a bit. When you add something new like this you get teething problems, but I think overall we are on the right lines... just needs a further tweak.

VAR use for offside decisions, especially when there has been a goal, is an improvement. It is factual (notwithstanding frame refresh rate for the cameras and the fine margins you can get into at that point) and that's a good thing.

VAR use for handballs has been good too. Again, it's a factual thing, and it seems decisive. I was gutted to see Mane's goal chalked off, but when I saw the replay and saw the ball hit his hand, I had no complaint about the decision.

Beyond that, there needs to be another development in the use of VAR. Is it going to be a tacit thing in the background, simply confirming what the referee sees - or crucially, doesn't see, on the pitch? Or is VAR going to be more of an active partner, so if the ref misses something the people on the VAR can alert him that a mistake was made?

At present, it seems too weighted in the direction of 'saving face' for the referee on the pitch, so it is not as useful as it might be.

Apart from offside and handball decisions, maybe the way forward - and it would preserve the referees union, is for each manager/bench to have x amount of challenges in a game (not many or it will get ridiculous). So at that point you would get the right decisions for offside, the right decisions for handball, and the subjective space after that - that could affect numerous things, could be challenged by each bench during the course of the game.

We're on the right lines with VAR, but there is more improvement needed.
 

rockafella

Registered before you did
Joined
Feb 1, 2004
Messages
841
As far as I can remember, we did not play Origi on the left and Mane on the right in those 17 games you are talking about. And replacing Salah with Trent or Ox is not completely change tactics for this game, is it?
I would say it is a huge difference. Especially playing Trent in the front three in the first time ever. I assume he's created most if not second most chances from RB in that run. I really don't see what would have caused us to decide it wasn't a good idea to stick to that.

Our full backs create most of our chances. Putting Gomez RB, who is poor going forward, wouldn't have made any sense. We used to do it in big games sometimes when we were scared about Trent being exposed defensively, but happily don't seem to do it any more.

The right forward (usually Salah) rarely plays wide, so you'd be asking Trent to basically play in a front three in a fairly central area. Again, all our creativity is centred around him from RB (although he was poor yesterday, crossing from too deep).

If Salah and Mane are both out of a game are you going to suggest a front three of Robertson, Firmino and Trent?

Ox in the front three instead of Origi wouldn't have been the biggest surprise, but all his good performances for us are driving forward from midfield. Never really liked him in the front three.
 



The Phenom

Potestatem obscuri lateris nescitis
Joined
Apr 23, 2006
Messages
325
Keane: United should buy Kane from Spurs.

Anyone with two brain cells to rub together: Why would he move from a Champions League finalist to a mid-table club?
One simple answer: loads of £ £ £ £ £ £ .

Or to a mid-table club from a soon-to-be mid-table club??
"Or to a soon-to-be mid-table relegation club from a soon-to-be mid-table club?"
 



Arminius

FSG PR plant
Moderator
Joined
Aug 13, 2008
Messages
24,287
Well, that was the match I was worried about. ManU with enough of a defensive stand to make our inconsistent attack sluggish, and a jammy goal for them. Didn't quite expect a goal that terrible, but at least we got the point.
 

Suarez7LateralIncisor

TIA Regular
Joined
Feb 19, 2008
Messages
1,968
VAR use for handballs has been good too. Again, it's a factual thing, and it seems decisive. I was gutted to see Mane's goal chalked off, but when I saw the replay and saw the ball hit his hand, I had no complaint about the decision.
The thing I struggle with was that I thought Mane was mauled leading up to the handball.
:

See 8:20 from my take, the defender is holding him and running into the back of him while he's trying to bring the ball down. That is every bit as much a foul as the resulting "handball". without the defender making that contact, mane controls that clean 90% of the time.
 

LFC4EVR

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 26, 2006
Messages
315
One thing that hit me and I've seen it before is when Origi started we seemed flat. A few times moves broke down and it just didn't have the spark on the left with Origi in for Mane. I realize it was a forced move with Salah being out but he's not a like for like slot in for me and felt this hurt the balance of the team. Our passing was off don't get me wrong but that initial first few minutes had we been more fluid the game would have been a very different one. Again completely subjective. Also regarding VAR, considering the ridiculousness of other team situations, several landing on Man City it had to happen to us at some point. The fact we seemed VAR free up until recently just added to this concern for me. Returning to my point on Origi, don't get me wrong I'm not picking on him, as a sub he definitely affects the game, just as a starter not so much for me.
 

Commando

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Joined
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Messages
2,070
The thing I struggle with was that I thought Mane was mauled leading up to the handball. I haven't seen a replay to confirm, but my initial take on it was that the defender was grabbing him and holding him back the entire time right up until the ball arrived on the scene.
But was it a “clear and obvious error” on the part of the officials?

VAR (in other words the match officials’ buddies) always say “no”.
 



104TOSH

mystic, clown and philosopher
Joined
Aug 21, 2009
Messages
1,630
Well that was a let down! When are we going to turn up for the full 90 minutes? The referee was awful, I can't even say his name! Thank fuck for Adam's leveller, which should have been the winner. Their goal should have been chalked off.

Utd were up for this and we were not. Poor passing and decision making, a sluggish performance. The Firmino shot was tame(first half), a better connection and maybe he'd have scored.

A game we should have won.

And no pipe broken!!!
 

epsomred

Give yourselves the chance to be heros
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May 16, 2018
Messages
937
At the risk of making myself unpopular, I think the focus in this thread on the ref and the VAR is a massive distraction from facing up to the fact that that was a really bad performance. As with so many visits to Old Trafford we just didn’t turn up yet again. The team looked flat and intimidated, quite a few players were lacking confidence and our main tactic for long periods seemed to be hoofing crosses in from the wings for a non existent target man. Worrying about the ref glosses over what was a poor game from us for 80 minutes. Hopefully we pick it up against the spuds.
 

iftikhar

New Member
Joined
Dec 18, 2017
Messages
33
I think Klopp has to rethink his tactical set-up wrt using Origi. Origi isn't much productive tucked away on the left, let's face it, he is no Mane. I think he will be more useful up top in 4231 or alongside Salah/Mane in 442. And we have to use Origi since Mane, Firmino and Salah isn't enough if we want to win the league.
 

JibJab

Mo Mane Mo' Problems
Joined
May 24, 2016
Messages
817
Hendo was terrible. Bobby was absent for 80% of the match. Fabinho was subpar. Origi might as well have been on the bench. Atkinson was shit.

We got a point in a match that we didn't play well. There isn't much else to do but move on and smash Genk on Wednesday.
 

Red over the water

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Joined
May 13, 2018
Messages
2,295
The thing I struggle with was that I thought Mane was mauled leading up to the handball.
:

See 8:20 from my take, the defender is holding him and running into the back of him while he's trying to bring the ball down. That is every bit as much a foul as the resulting "handball". without the defender making that contact, mane controls that clean 90% of the time.
Yes, completely agree. He was fouled before the ball brushed his hand.
 



Red over the water

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 13, 2018
Messages
2,295
At the risk of making myself unpopular, I think the focus in this thread on the ref and the VAR is a massive distraction from facing up to the fact that that was a really bad performance. As with so many visits to Old Trafford we just didn’t turn up yet again. The team looked flat and intimidated, quite a few players were lacking confidence and our main tactic for long periods seemed to be hoofing crosses in from the wings for a non existent target man. Worrying about the ref glosses over what was a poor game from us for 80 minutes. Hopefully we pick it up against the spuds.
It’s a fair comment to say that we were short in our performance level. Mitigating factors were the international break and all the travel, plus an opponent who did everything possible to narrow the quality gap. The ref was bad but if we played at our level we largely make him irrelevant. That’s what we have to focus on, and I’m sure we will bounce back.
 

shachart

"You're supposed to help people that need a bit."
Joined
Oct 26, 2009
Messages
2,042
A few observations :
1. Mane plays much better on the left. I couldn't understand why, because before Salah came, he was excellent on the right. I think the reason is that he got used to playing with Robbo which likes to overlap him from the outside, while TAA and Salah wok differently. TAA doesn't overlap Salah as much, but either get close to him to cross, or even cuts inside.
2. Origi as a winger is not a solution. He is not fast enough. I think his best position is playing in the center alongside another striker.
3.Nothing new really , but we have no threat coming through the middle. Firmino is amazimg, but he is not a typical #9, playing with his back to the goal.

Klopp needs to integrate either Ox (Keita still is a mystery to me ) as fast as possible to the first XI so we can start threatning the goal from outside the box. If Salah is out, Keep Mane on the left and deploy someone else on the right ( perhaps Lallana, or Origi center and Bobby on the right ).
 

Danny Sarge

Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2017
Messages
98
Not to jump on the Henderson band wag, because he has his role in the team and his pressing game is very strong, but he rarely gives us that captain type inspirational performance that we sometimes need from a skipper.

Southampton away last season was one, but one in a million. Yesterday was another below par performance and it would be nice if he could get the game by the scruff of the neck and give us something extra.

Would like to see one the 3 subs that came on starting in a midfield 3 for the Spurs game. But we'll see........
 



Colorado Red

TIA New Signing
Joined
Jul 3, 2007
Messages
457
I kinda felt this one coming, namely that the winning streak might come to an end at the Toilet. We’ve squeaked out a few wins already this season, and ridden a bit of luck. So, I’m ultimately disappointed at the performance, but pleased that at least we came away with a point, as every point matters, and at least it prevents the Mancs from celebrating too much.

The big picture remains winning the PL title, and so for this season (and probably the next few), our real Manchester rivals are City, not United. The 6-pointers against City will likely be the games to decide the title, not this 90 minutes of mostly dross.

Can’t post without mentioning, yet again, that it was one of the worst combined ref-VAR performances I’ve seen in a long time. United’s goal should’ve been called back. The VAR decision on Mane’s disallowed goal was technically correct (in disallowing the goal), but Lindelof was draped all over Mane’s back and shoulders, and there should’ve been a foul called w/ a free kick for Liverpool just outside the box. Liverpool tackle = foul, yellow card. United tackle worse than the previous one = play on. (Mini-rant over).

I’m hoping we’ll get to see more of Keita and Ox in the coming weeks, and hope we have Salah back by next weekend at the latest.
 

Red Armada

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Messages
2,924
At the risk of making myself unpopular, I think the focus in this thread on the ref and the VAR is a massive distraction from facing up to the fact that that was a really bad performance. As with so many visits to Old Trafford we just didn’t turn up yet again. The team looked flat and intimidated, quite a few players were lacking confidence and our main tactic for long periods seemed to be hoofing crosses in from the wings for a non existent target man. Worrying about the ref glosses over what was a poor game from us for 80 minutes. Hopefully we pick it up against the spuds.
The performance was ugly but that doesn't negate the fact that in all probability we still would have won had it not been for Atkinson.

If anything this team has proven that it doesn't need to be at its best to win.
 

Gone Kloppo

Formerly known as Ʒan
Joined
Jul 15, 2016
Messages
2,267
At the risk of making myself unpopular, I think the focus in this thread on the ref and the VAR is a massive distraction from facing up to the fact that that was a really bad performance. As with so many visits to Old Trafford we just didn’t turn up yet again. The team looked flat and intimidated, quite a few players were lacking confidence and our main tactic for long periods seemed to be hoofing crosses in from the wings for a non existent target man. Worrying about the ref glosses over what was a poor game from us for 80 minutes. Hopefully we pick it up against the spuds.
I think many times for games like this is not just about whether we turn up or not. This is United's final so they were always going to put in an extra 15% against us - you could see that in the way they tackled, illegally and not, and the way they closed down to block shots. In Aussie Rules we call it 'doing the one percenters'. Same when we face Everton. I doubt we'll thrash them even though we are a far superior team because they'll be completely focused and fired up for that game. You could almost say even the City away game last season was played as their final, knowing a draw or loss and they were out of the title race. They were desperate for a result in that and I think it made a difference.

My point is that it takes two to tango. Games aren't often only in one team's control, no matter how superior they are.