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Post match: Napoli 2-0 Liverpool (UCL 17/9/19 8pm)

Man of the match

  • Adrian

    Votes: 63 70.0%
  • Alexander-Arnold

    Votes: 1 1.1%
  • Matip

    Votes: 16 17.8%
  • Van Dijk

    Votes: 3 3.3%
  • Robertson

    Votes: 3 3.3%
  • Fabinho

    Votes: 50 55.6%
  • Henderson [on 87’]

    Votes: 10 11.1%
  • Milner [off 67’]

    Votes: 1 1.1%
  • Salah

    Votes: 4 4.4%
  • Firmino

    Votes: 4 4.4%
  • Mane

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Wijnaldum [on 67’]

    Votes: 1 1.1%
  • Shaqiri [on 87’]

    Votes: 1 1.1%

  • Total voters
    90
  • Poll closed .


Rambler

Bootle Boy
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It all hinges on the definition of clear and obvious error. A ball handled on the line and missed by the ref is clear and obvious. I maintain by the self imposed constraints of VAR, last night's decision was not. Maybe they need to communicate examples of what scenarios they cite as clear and obvious...

I do think the one on Matip last Saturday was clear and obvious though :mad:
 

Red over the water

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May 13, 2018
Messages
2,295
I'm curious. What did you expect him to do?
My answer is he has to do one of two things:

1. Kick the ball away (this is what he attempted, but either he missed the ball, or only slightly got a minor scuffed contact)
2. Jockey the player, so when he cuts inside keep your position between the goal you are defending and the player and ball, not letting him past you, so ultimately he turns away and tries to lay it off to a teammate

I can’t really criticize Robbo though, as he’s a smashing player and I wouldn’t swap for another lb in world football.

The penalty was mostly about the attacking player conning the ref, who bought it, and VAR reinforced his mistake rather than clean it up.
 

nikz200

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Joined
Sep 12, 2013
Messages
997
Biggest concern with this defeat is that we started our best 11 and this weekend we have chelsea up next, who although they lost themselves to Valencia, they get up well against us. We need to be far more clinical at the chelsea game and make a statement after this. Napoli to me feels like they have the advantage of having played us so many times over the past 2 years......
 

Wilkored08

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Mar 15, 2017
Messages
2,599

How can this be a penalty? Robbo clearly gets the ball before the cheating [email protected] dives.
The ref was just waiting for his chance to give the pen.
Robbos foot is clearly on the ground when he decides to 'tom Daley' with two feet to propel him 2 foot off the ground...if Robbo reads any of these replies...he needs to know he was done by a cheat....just go out and annihilate the cheats....and the defender who thumped Sadio on the sly, needs a good slap.....Rant over!!! But Gordon bennet VAR needs to be looked at...
 



Mascot88

Yours for £1m. Need to make room for Dean Saunders
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It all hinges on the definition of clear and obvious error. A ball handled on the line and missed by the ref is clear and obvious. I maintain by the self imposed constraints of VAR, last night's decision was not. Maybe they need to communicate examples of what scenarios they cite as clear and obvious...

I do think the one on Matip last Saturday was clear and obvious though :mad:
Is the referee missing a dive not ‘clear and obvious’?

It seems to me that VAR has quickly become about the referees union. We’re all partly at fault for that. It’s quite obvious that their would be a ‘Darwinian’ aspect to VAR where it would expose the shit refs, and you can imagine the media pieces around which ref has been bailed out by VAR the most.

VAR is actively protecting referees and that isn’t what it should be about.
 

Wilkored08

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Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
2,599
VAR should be there to expose how good players are at cheating which is difficult to see at full speed and be sympathetic to referees rather than be seen as being critical of referees,the context is all wrong.
Would it be better if we used a system, as in Cricket, which would allow playback and views from 3 separate views..and the crowd can see what's happening...at the moment all the conversations between ref, linesman and VAR ref are so secretive(I understand) just be open....anything than this crap system we have now...
 



mattyhurst

TIA Regular
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Oct 3, 2010
Messages
13,764
Would it be better if we used a system, as in Cricket, which would allow playback and views from 3 separate views..and the crowd can see what's happening...at the moment all the conversations between ref, linesman and VAR ref are so secretive(I understand) just be open....anything than this crap system we have now...
It would be good if we could hear why they made the decision or explanation though that would only really work for TV at home, effectively this was "umpire's decision". The idea of Clear and Obvious needs to be looked at as offside that are not clearly obvious are ruled out as they rightly should be but and I will make more of a point on Matip foul at the weekend, it was clearly obvious a foul and yet wasn't given.
 

mattyhurst

TIA Regular
Joined
Oct 3, 2010
Messages
13,764
Anyhow i'm not too bothered, I don't think we played too badly we just were sloppy up top. I didn't expect to win the game and we played better than last year.

Deserved a point probably but I don't think it puts any pressure on us as of yet and if Salzburg are a challenge for us, then it will also be for Napoli. If this had taken place in Gameweek 4 or 5 and we have won 3 or 4 games then it wouldn't probably hurt as much.
 

Limiescouse

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Aug 26, 2014
Messages
13,837
The narrative that I’ve seen forming in the media is that it wasn’t a penalty, but Robbo gave the Ref a decision to make.

I understand that, and I don’t blame the ref for thinking it’s a penalty.
This is one of the reasons you have to be careful taking the opinion of players literally. Many will approach a situation like this not from the perspective of whether it was a foul, but from the perspective of whether the defender made a mistake. Typically, they will see no difference in being beaten by a forward vs being conned by one. If you made a mistake then you exposed yourself and you deserve the outcome.

In the days prior to VAR it was reasonable to refuse to distinguish between whether a decision was right vs whether you gave the ref a chance to blow his whistle, because the latter is the only thing you can control. Today, with VAR, that should have changed. Defenders should now be more protected from having a ref falsely think something was a foul when you got your toe to the ball first, or from being conned by a forward diving over their dangling leg. That requires some intellectual flexibility, but this is not what anyone should expect from former professional football players.
 

Quagmire81

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6,806
I think the biggest deal regard the pen is the fact that the ref allowed a hard game for 80min and in that light the pen was extremely soft. The game had draw written all over it at that point, and would have been a fair result with no sour grapes from either sides but then out of nowhere he completely changed the outcome of the game. I guess this is just football in a nutshell and shows that luck still has a huge factor in football which can't be calculated with.
 

Flobs

FADA
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Messages
9,079
I think the biggest deal regard the pen is the fact that the ref allowed a hard game for 80min and in that light the pen was extremely soft. The game had draw written all over it at that point, and would have been a fair result with no sour grapes from either sides but then out of nowhere he completely changed the outcome of the game. I guess this is just football in a nutshell and shows that luck still has a huge factor in football which can't be calculated with.
Milner expressively pointed out the refs hypocracy over awarding fouls just before being subbed. So one could say we knew the deal. I don't mind hard however Napoli were let off for being dirty. Elbows, studs and strangulation. I wonder what the refs reaction would have been if we had been dirty instaed of hard as Milner got a yellow for just going in normally (forget hard).
 



Neukolln

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I keep seeing Koulibaly "shut down" our front line, I ask this genuinely, do people really believe that? And do people really think he's "one of the best defenders in the world" on par with Virgil? I couldn't disagree more. That is Youtube scouting at it's finest. One of the most overrated players in all of world football.

Our forwards made that big lump look good. More a case of giveaways than him doing anything special. Kalidou Koulibaly is living on a reputation forged a long time ago. Not even remotely the same player he once was, he is an average defender. Good at home on that shit surface when the game is slow and static and an average defender on the road. And that's to say nothing of his beautiful own goal a few weeks ago v Juve. Imagine the uproar if Virg ever put the ball in the back of his own net.
 

sgs

Active Member
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Jul 12, 2017
Messages
148
The VAR thing is quite confusing. Until now, I had thought certain decisions were subject to VAR- goals, RC and PKs.

In any case, perhaps Robbo should have been more aware of Cajjelon, the slimiest player I have ever seen in all my years of watching football; going back to his loan days at Espanyol and his return to Madrid...
 

Flobs

FADA
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Imagine the uproar if Virg ever put the ball in the back of his own net.
He more or less did for Napoli's second goal, didn't change the result just the score. From the reaction to that If ever he did put the ball in his own net at least on here it would get blame on someone or something else. You should have used Lovren, or TAA as your example. ;)
 

WooltonRed

TIA Youth Team
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Messages
760
Also, it's absolutely disgraceful to read that Robbo had to shut down his social media today after "fans" abusing him for giving up the pen. Galling the state of it all. Absolute disgraceful and embarrassing from "fans".
I agree it’s disgraceful, but are they genuine LFC fans or Mancs and blueshite pretending to be? I strongly suspect it’s the latter.
 



Hope in your heart

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This is whee I despair at where the game has gone. It has become so convoluted and so confused by the noise of "experts" who have fucking idea what they are talking about that sensible people with ordinarily sensible views are confused into making comments like that. Contact is neither a sufficient nor necessary condition to give a foul. What matters is whether the player was impeded by the failure of the defender to win the ball. What is completely evident is that Callejon going down was a purely voluntary act and was initiated before any contact between the two of them was made. The next question then is whether he felt had to to protect himself or because Robbo's outstretched leg unfairly impeded him. That is not even the argument you are making so I dont think you would say yes to that. It is therefore not a foul.

Importantly, and this is where the conversation gets confused, the above considerations are distinct from whether you can understand why the ref gave it and whether Robbo made a mistake. The answer to both of those is yes, but even the combination of those two things does not mean it was actually a foul. The awarding of the penalty is still as undeniably wrong as a subjective decision can be. This is what VAR was brought in for. It's not here to make process decisions (rule on the ref's thought process), but outcome decisions. It is right that the bar is high to overturn a subjective decision like was an attempted tackle a foul, but if the bar is so high that this cannot be over turned then it is effectively theatre.

(...)
Robertson doesn't get to the ball, and there is definitely a contact, intentionally or not. Sorry, but that's a 50-50 for me. It can be given or not, depending on how the ref sees it.
 

FGred

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Jan 10, 2015
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3,305
Warnock took back his initial comment though after seeing the slow mos. I didn't follow the live BBC radio broadcast but in the redacted live thread on the website he says that the referee 'may have been conned there'
You beat me to it he did think it was a penalty but he was watching it on television and changed his mind when he saw the slow mo from a different angle. I was really worried about that ref before the game as his record reffing our games is not favourable but in Europe in general refs have been good and fair to us but as someone said on a previous page I was a bit naive and forgot that maybe there are german refs that don’t like Klopp much?
 

fspencer

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Nov 20, 2017
Messages
543
just give everyone a penalty each before the match kicks off .

then give no penalties during the game .

scrap offsides - but if you are within 25 yards of goal you have to shoot .

Allow players and referees to carry smart devices - if there is a yellow card offence then you can pay the referee £5,000 and he'll look the other way .

Introduce a betting terminal next to the off pitch VAR screen - the ref can then check the odds and see which decision will be more profitable for him .

introduce piles of dog shit randomly splattered around the pitch - that can pop up at any moment . this will stop diving . no fucker ever dived when i was a lad for fear of getting a nose full of fidos mess .


the above are apparently on the list for rules changes for next season.
 

auzziez

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Jul 3, 2013
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1,428
Couldn't watch the match but caught up with the highlights. That 10+ minute video didn't suggest we did anything wrong. A compact Ancelotti team was always be going to be a tough outing away from home in Europe. Something we knew about already from the last season.
Van Dijk's error for their second goal was one off. It was a first errror we have seen so far from him and definitely not going to see it again soon. Not because Klopp or his team will have a word with him about it not making such a mistake again, but because that guy sets such high standards for himself that he will have that mistake in back of his mind every training session here on.
As for Robbos foul and the penalty awarded, it was a bit of a mess. In real time I can understand why the referee gave a penalty. But I thought VAR was meant to address situations like this where the mistakes made by the referee (due to lack of replay, wrong line of sight etc) could be corrected with right technology.
As it turns out, the technology is as good as humans that use it. And as long as those sitting in the VAR room have no clue about their job/rules, VAR will result in more questions asked than answered.
It is still too early in the group stage to make any conclusions. Like I said in the pre match thread, a loss will not be end of the world.
As a team we will come over all these obstacle/nuances, I just hope we leave enough food for thought on the way when it comes to things like VAR and FFP.
 

LeoT

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Jan 23, 2008
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2,329
Would it be better if we used a system, as in Cricket, which would allow playback and views from 3 separate views..and the crowd can see what's happening...at the moment all the conversations between ref, linesman and VAR ref are so secretive(I understand) just be open....anything than this crap system we have now...
The crowd are not shown all the angles to avoid a riot when the useless good-for-nothings in the VAR van agree with the ref and get it wrong.
 



Quicksand

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So it wasn't clear and obvious then because even slowed down and viewed time and time again you only think Robertson got the ball. It most certainly isn't clear who did get the first touch. I agree with @Dane ........if it had been against one of our players we would not have questioned it.
Ok
You took a word and bolded it, to mis contextualise my post. Robertson got the ball, hope thats clearer for you.