POST MATCH: Red Star v Liverpool (UCL 6/11/18 5.55pm)

Man of the Match


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kopend79

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If we werent taking shaqiri, why not start him against arsenal and rest one of the lads that started this game. We've been poor most of the year but have been getting the results. Is this the sign of a team of champions who can grind out wins or a team who have been lucky and are now being found out? Theres lots to like about this team and lots to worry about.
 

Caradoc

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Its weird. I’m going in reverse here. Normally over time a performance seems to be less ‘bad’ than I initially thought. This time its the opposite. The more I watch it, the more I think about it, the more last night’s effort seems unacceptable. Its not that we lost but it was our attitude, our approach, the complete lack of effort or teamwork.

Our midfield was spineless, gutless, lazy, lacking in commitment, anonymous.

Klopp’s selection seemed complacent, presumptious, clueless, disrespectful.

There is no point in talking about the rest of the side because if you’re midfield unit goes AWOL en bloc for 90+ minutes there’s only ever going to be one outcome. They should hang their heads in collective shame after last night.

We approached the game, players and manager alike, as if all we had to do was turn up, score a couple of goals, keep a clean sheet and leave and we’d take the 3 points home with us. Routine stuff. In the bag.

Instead, they got what they deserved. Absolutely nothing. Its all very well dishing out a collective bollocking to the players - and they should bloody well get one - but this time Klopp should take a long hard look at himself as well.

Matip, Sturridge and Lallana should not be starting an ECL match in a group containing these sides. There is no cannon fodder in this group. You need a solid midfield trio. Fabinho was admittedly poor against Arsenal but that doesn’t justify not selecting him alongside Gini to provide some midfield steel. Lallana’s form is nowhere near good enough. A Shaqiri he is not.

On last night’s performance Matip proved that he is not up to it at ECL level. Klavan would have been a much better option if we hadn’t let him go. Matip really is 4th choice by some distance at the moment and you shouldn’t play your 4th choice CB in the ECL unless your are experiencing an injury crisis in that position.

The selection, preparation and performance was what you’d expect from ECL novices not last season’s finalists. It was absolutely dreadful.
 

Mascot88

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If we werent taking shaqiri, why not start him against arsenal and rest one of the lads that started this game. We've been poor most of the year but have been getting the results. Is this the sign of a team of champions who can grind out wins or a team who have been lucky and are now being found out? Theres lots to like about this team and lots to worry about.
I think it’s fairly obvious that the Shaqiri decision was taken fairly late in the day.
 

Neukolln

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Regarding the absence of Buvac, I find myself on both sides of the debate. I have to believe the main identity or style of the system is always going to Jürgen's and his alone. It's up to his assistants to give him supplemental critique and ideas based on maximizing that identity. Given the tenure and the closeness of their relationship I'm sure JK does miss Buvac's insight, but at the same time find it a little difficult to attribute all of these early season offensive consistency struggles to losing Buvac. IMO Jurgen has changed something significant in his philosophy, that is not obvious to us as supporters in this moment. I am not comparing the two managers, only adding this in a matter-of-fact sense, but Pep lost Torrent this summer after 11 years and his system hasn't missed a beat.
 

Maria

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Regarding the absence of Buvac, I find myself on both sides of the debate. I have to believe the main identity or style of the system is always going to Jürgen's and his alone. It's up to his assistants to give him supplemental critique and ideas based on maximizing that identity. Given the tenure and the closeness of their relationship I'm sure JK does miss Buvac's insight, but at the same time find it a little difficult to attribute all of these early season offensive consistency struggles to losing Buvac. IMO Jurgen has changed something significant in his philosophy, that is not obvious to us as supporters in this moment. I am not comparing the two managers, only adding this in a matter-of-fact sense, but Pep lost Torrent this summer after 11 years and his system hasn't missed a beat.
Very interesting and valid point you made. Also, Klopp's last year at Dortmund when his team dipped a bit, Buvac was still working with him. Also, after Buvac left last April, we were still playing the high pressing and fast paced counter attacking style and got to the CL final, we didn't lose our form then. Quite a few LFC fans on the radio were saying, something is missing for quite a while now, but cannot quite figure it out. Others were saying Buvac was hugely missed because he was the one training the front 3 most of the time, but I am not convinced it's solely due to his absent assistant.
 
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I realise our massive disappointment, but please stand behind our players 'YNWA' means You'll never walk alone.
being critical is normal, but please don't overdo it.
I just have a feeling that if we don't try to be too arrogant in our predictions, we might be able to make better assessment of our games.(My opinion of being 'arrogant' means not predicting that we'll beat teams before a ball has been kicked, even worse that we'll hammer them.) doesn't matter who we play (sorry 2 exceptions), we should show every opposing team some respect, no jumping to conclusions because of the opposing team position in whatever division they are in.
That should go for the players as well, no?
 
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Its weird. I’m going in reverse here. Normally over time a performance seems to be less ‘bad’ than I initially thought. This time its the opposite. The more I watch it, the more I think about it, the more last night’s effort seems unacceptable. Its not that we lost but it was our attitude, our approach, the complete lack of effort or teamwork.

Our midfield was spineless, gutless, lazy, lacking in commitment, anonymous.

Klopp’s selection seemed complacent, presumptious, clueless, disrespectful.

There is no point in talking about the rest of the side because if you’re midfield unit goes AWOL en bloc for 90+ minutes there’s only ever going to be one outcome. They should hang their heads in collective shame after last night.

We approached the game, players and manager alike, as if all we had to do was turn up, score a couple of goals, keep a clean sheet and leave and we’d take the 3 points home with us. Routine stuff. In the bag.

Instead, they got what they deserved. Absolutely nothing. Its all very well dishing out a collective bollocking to the players - and they should bloody well get one - but this time Klopp should take a long hard look at himself as well.

Matip, Sturridge and Lallana should not be starting an ECL match in a group containing these sides. There is no cannon fodder in this group. You need a solid midfield trio. Fabinho was admittedly poor against Arsenal but that doesn’t justify not selecting him alongside Gini to provide some midfield steel. Lallana’s form is nowhere near good enough. A Shaqiri he is not.

On last night’s performance Matip proved that he is not up to it at ECL level. Klavan would have been a much better option if we hadn’t let him go. Matip really is 4th choice by some distance at the moment and you shouldn’t play your 4th choice CB in the ECL unless your are experiencing an injury crisis in that position.

The selection, preparation and performance was what you’d expect from ECL novices not last season’s finalists. It was absolutely dreadful.
It really was a woeful performance. It was so confused from us that yes the more you dwell on it the worst it gets. The 1st 30 minutes with such a talented technical team sending ballistic missiles up into the clouds should be enough for any one.
 

Red over the water

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After 11 league games last season:
Points - 19
Goals for - 21
Goals against - 17

After 11 league games this season:
Points - 27
Goals for - 21
Goals against - 5

It's very clear, both according to the stats and according to the naked eye, that so far, in a season-to-season comparison we have become much stronger at the back. We have conceded 12 fewer goals, which over this sample size, is massive.

As for scoring goals, we have amassed the same as last season, and we've played several main rivals. This is the part where the mind plays tricks. We remember the swash buckling style of last season... but the truth is it wasn't ALWAYS like that.

The bottom line is points on the board, and so far, in the season-to-season comparison, we have 8 more points. That is massive, and if extrapolated over the whole season, should see a strong title challenge ensue.

The players need a kick up the backside after Belgrade. But you can't escape the feeling that there is yet more to come from the side, as the forwards find their groove and the best midfield blend emerges. In the meantime, we are scoring just as many, conceding way less, and racking up many more points.
 

FilthyBloke

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After 11 league games last season:
Points - 19
Goals for - 21
Goals against - 17

After 11 league games this season:
Points - 27
Goals for - 21
Goals against - 5

It's very clear, both according to the stats and according to the naked eye, that so far, in a season-to-season comparison we have become much stronger at the back. We have conceded 12 fewer goals, which over this sample size, is massive.

As for scoring goals, we have amassed the same as last season, and we've played several main rivals. This is the part where the mind plays tricks. We remember the swash buckling style of last season... but the truth is it wasn't ALWAYS like that.

The bottom line is points on the board, and so far, in the season-to-season comparison, we have 8 more points. That is massive, and if extrapolated over the whole season, should see a strong title challenge ensue.

The players need a kick up the backside after Belgrade. But you can't escape the feeling that there is yet more to come from the side, as the forwards find their groove and the best midfield blend emerges. In the meantime, we are scoring just as many, conceding way less, and racking up many more points.
Well said! Although I must admit it feels like this season has been a drag at times.
I think I’m just annoyed that despite having a great start we find ourselves in 3rd.
Guaranteed if united had had this start in the 1994-2006 era they would be 12 points clear and it would be game over.
 
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Regarding the absence of Buvac, I find myself on both sides of the debate. I have to believe the main identity or style of the system is always going to Jürgen's and his alone. It's up to his assistants to give him supplemental critique and ideas based on maximizing that identity. Given the tenure and the closeness of their relationship I'm sure JK does miss Buvac's insight, but at the same time find it a little difficult to attribute all of these early season offensive consistency struggles to losing Buvac. IMO Jurgen has changed something significant in his philosophy, that is not obvious to us as supporters in this moment. I am not comparing the two managers, only adding this in a matter-of-fact sense, but Pep lost Torrent this summer after 11 years and his system hasn't missed a beat.
Its a very interesting enigma we'll probably have to chew at for a long time. Mostly supposition. But it could seem as there was a disagreement over style and philosophy which ultimately compromised Buvac's professionalism? I dont know for sure, but the circumstances to support that are present.

Further to your point about the worth of support of an assistant, sometimes the strength lies in the duality of minds, the support and inspiration they lend each other. The only comparable example I have is Brian Clough and Peter Taylor, whereas once Clough lost Taylor, his management prowess dipped considerably, and this ultimately led to his demise. He also started to worsen on drink. I dont think the issues are separate either but likely, pari passu, it may have been drink that drove a wedge between them, or made Clough less of a partner. Not that drink is relevant here, but Klopp does look isolated at times. And we look much diluted on the field. Shandy actually.
 

Zoran

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That was a disgrace. Considering the opponent (who deserved their win and actually showed pieces of collective quality and bravery in the first 15-20 minutes at Anfield) and how we looked in all basic football elements without which you cannot look like a team, that was the worst embarrassment in Europe so far this season, one of our worst defeats (just purely from a performance v that opponent view, not losing a final or that CL campaign under Rodgers which was poor) in recent years, perhaps more. Watching it live from our away end was even more shocking. And we were all in shock there from start to finish. That was a nice slap we got last night, on all levels.
 
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After 11 league games last season:
Points - 19
Goals for - 21
Goals against - 17

After 11 league games this season:
Points - 27
Goals for - 21
Goals against - 5

It's very clear, both according to the stats and according to the naked eye, that so far, in a season-to-season comparison we have become much stronger at the back. We have conceded 12 fewer goals, which over this sample size, is massive.

As for scoring goals, we have amassed the same as last season, and we've played several main rivals. This is the part where the mind plays tricks. We remember the swash buckling style of last season... but the truth is it wasn't ALWAYS like that.

The bottom line is points on the board, and so far, in the season-to-season comparison, we have 8 more points. That is massive, and if extrapolated over the whole season, should see a strong title challenge ensue.

The players need a kick up the backside after Belgrade. But you can't escape the feeling that there is yet more to come from the side, as the forwards find their groove and the best midfield blend emerges. In the meantime, we are scoring just as many, conceding way less, and racking up many more points.
Are you trying to say it can only get worst? :Jlol
 

Irishanfield

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The problem is that this result might impact our league performance immensely. If we don't make it among the two first teams in this group, and have to play EL in the spring, what do you then think will happen?

But fortunately, we aren't there yet. There is still time for Klopp's staff and the players to work out their obvious current flaws and come back all guns blazing. Going at arguably the toughest ground in Europe next (after Fulham and Watford) might paradoxically help us to find some passion back.
Ya that's what I'm hoping. Basically I nent that I'd prefer to lose that match because our destiny is still in our own hands in the champ lge than lose in the league when we are already a few pts behind city. Sometimes you for need a kick in the arse to get a response.
 

Libero

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I'm not at all surprised by this loss, I think it was coming considering some of our performances of late and hopefully its a kick up the arse for the players and Klopp.

Take into account what some have said; this was Red Star's first game where their fans were allowed into the stadium, the level of noise and atmosphere which I thought was electric and one of the best I've heard in a while (from the tele anyway) they as a club were always going to be up for this and our lads weren't. You can talk about quality and individually we are a better team but you have to match the effort and none of that was there.

What I don't like seeing/reading is the lack of respect given to Red Star and being so dismissive of them. This is a proud club with big history as well and it is a great win for them and Serbian football as a whole. They did manage a draw with Napoli at home and are unbeaten at home. We can talk about professionalism and getting the job done and our players should be able to do that, but if the effort and willingness is not matched you will not get anything out of football games.

Some other observations:

Like many I'm confused with what our team plan is at the moment and how we should be playing, last year it was clear where now I'm watching the game confused. I'd like to think that Klopp is maybe adapting and that he is waiting until xmas to release the handbrake and for us to unleash that football we have seen last year.

TAA needs to be dropped, I don't buy into him being tired or exhausted, he is 20, should be able to play 3 times a week. Something else is going on with him and his head is not in the game. The amount of times his head has dropped and the lack of effort to track, put a tackle in this year has been telling.

We need to stop playing Bobby as a 10 and put him back where he is at his best, up front through the middle and floating around the left. When he clicks the team clicks.
 

kopend79

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When Rodgers nearly won the league he copped plenty of criticism for being too attacking against chelsea and not closing out the game against palace and i think it changed his philosophy because in the following season we played almost like a tony pulis team.
I wonder if the champions league loss has affected klopp. He is only human and six cup final defeats in a row has got to playing with his head. Nothing wrong with changing a teams style. Ferguson even did it at united. Its just a matter of making it work.
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Regarding the absence of Buvac, I find myself on both sides of the debate. I have to believe the main identity or style of the system is always going to Jürgen's and his alone. It's up to his assistants to give him supplemental critique and ideas based on maximizing that identity. Given the tenure and the closeness of their relationship I'm sure JK does miss Buvac's insight, but at the same time find it a little difficult to attribute all of these early season offensive consistency struggles to losing Buvac. IMO Jurgen has changed something significant in his philosophy, that is not obvious to us as supporters in this moment. I am not comparing the two managers, only adding this in a matter-of-fact sense, but Pep lost Torrent this summer after 11 years and his system hasn't missed a beat.
 

Bonus

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going to play the devils advocate here....

after calming down a bit after last night, I looked at the results in Europe this year,
I noticed they have only conceded 1 goal at home in 5 games during there champs league campaign
which started in July.

In their national league they are romping it, P15 W14 D1 GD32 and are 9 points clear.

So are RSB really such bad team, which some people suggest they are?

For me they strike me as a well organised team full of big strong players, who can play a bit
as we saw in the 1st 20 mins at Anfield, before they fell apart,
they also have a fanatical home support behind them, who spur them on

So did we underestimate them?
and are not giving them the credit they are due?

Or were we just pure rotten, making them look good and let them walk all over us?

I am confused....
 

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going to play the devils advocate here....

after calming down a bit after last night, I looked at the results in Europe this year,
I noticed they have only conceded 1 goal at home in 5 games during there champs league campaign
which started in July.

In their national league they are romping it, P15 W14 D1 GD32 and are 9 points clear.

So are RSB really such bad team, which some people suggest they are?

For me they strike me as a well organised team full of big strong players, who can play a bit
as we saw in the 1st 20 mins at Anfield, before they fell apart,
they also have a fanatical home support behind them, who spur them on

So did we underestimate them?
and are not giving them the credit they are due?

Or were we just pure rotten, making them look good and let them walk all over us?

I am confused....
Its not so much that, rather, we didnt even begin to give them a game. RSB aside, we were dogshit. Thats the only issue. If we had still lost 2-0 but showed up, this thread, and others, would be far shorter. All we can do is see if there is a reaction for Fulham. Draw with Fulham and it will be a China syndrome.
 

PaulRoJo

Supporter since 1990 still waiting for the league
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Its a very interesting enigma we'll probably have to chew at for a long time. Mostly supposition. But it could seem as there was a disagreement over style and philosophy which ultimately compromised Buvac's professionalism? I dont know for sure, but the circumstances to support that are present.

Further to your point about the worth of support of an assistant, sometimes the strength lies in the duality of minds, the support and inspiration they lend each other. The only comparable example I have is Brian Clough and Peter Taylor, whereas once Clough lost Taylor, his management prowess dipped considerably, and this ultimately led to his demise. He also started to worsen on drink. I dont think the issues are separate either but likely, pari passu, it may have been drink that drove a wedge between them, or made Clough less of a partner. Not that drink is relevant here, but Klopp does look isolated at times. And we look much diluted on the field. Shandy actually.
Love this post, Barnestormer! I think Jurgen absolutely looks like he needs assistance, maybe even the return of a chilled Riesling or perhaps a local Black Lodge?
 
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TAA needs to be dropped, I don't buy into him being tired or exhausted, he is 20, should be able to play 3 times a week.
Physically you could well be correct however mentally it's hard for a young player to process all the information that he's receiving during a match. They often just havent the experience to fathom out what's happening. So yes if he is in this situation a rest could do him a world of good.
Personally I think the whole squad is confused and we can't rest the whole lot now can we. Also I don't agree that TAA is playing poorly. Ok not as well as he can but it's not a big dip in form like we have seen from Firmino and Salah for example.
 

Noo Noo

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After 11 league games last season:
Points - 19
Goals for - 21
Goals against - 17

After 11 league games this season:
Points - 27
Goals for - 21
Goals against - 5

It's very clear, both according to the stats and according to the naked eye, that so far, in a season-to-season comparison we have become much stronger at the back. We have conceded 12 fewer goals, which over this sample size, is massive.

As for scoring goals, we have amassed the same as last season, and we've played several main rivals. This is the part where the mind plays tricks. We remember the swash buckling style of last season... but the truth is it wasn't ALWAYS like that.

The bottom line is points on the board, and so far, in the season-to-season comparison, we have 8 more points. That is massive, and if extrapolated over the whole season, should see a strong title challenge ensue.

The players need a kick up the backside after Belgrade. But you can't escape the feeling that there is yet more to come from the side, as the forwards find their groove and the best midfield blend emerges. In the meantime, we are scoring just as many, conceding way less, and racking up many more points.
Its all well and good quoting those numbers because in some ways that's all that counts but the concern for me is that if we carry on playing as we have been doing of late then that level of goals, points etc. will not continue.

What has been our record over the last nine games for example? They show a downward trend that needs to be stopped. We are definitely in a good position but we really need to buck up and start playing to our ability.
 

Red over the water

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Its all well and good quoting those numbers because in some ways that's all that counts but the concern for me is that if we carry on playing as we have been doing of late then that level of goals, points etc. will not continue.

What has been our record over the last nine games for example? They show a downward trend that needs to be stopped. We are definitely in a good position but we really need to buck up and start playing to our ability.
It’s a fair comment, and there is some legitimate cause for concern. My post was to try to give a wider season-to-season comparison as for some fans we veer towards despair when we get a bad result.

But yes, the last nine games haven’t been great - two losses in Europe the worst of it, with the result in Belgrade the low point; and the draws in the league haven’t been too bad considering who we played. The League Cup was a toss up, but I’d have preferred to continue in that, not least to give fringe players more action. Still, as you say, 3 wins in 9 games is another way to look at it, and there needs to be improvement. I think there will be, but in the meantime we’re unbeaten in the league and two points off top spot, and while Europe has been patchy we’re still in the fight in a very tough group.
 

Caradoc

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I wouldn’t normally be so concerned about the loss per se because its part and parcel of football especially in the ECL in a group like ours and away from home. It happens from time to time whether its ideal or not.

That said, what I am not happy about is the selection and the performance. Neither the players nor the manager come out of this match in a very good light. It was abysmal.

I expect a huge positive reaction from both against Fulham. As a ‘one-off’ it was barely acceptable but any repeat is unthinkable.
 



Noo Noo

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It’s a fair comment, and there is some legitimate cause for concern. My post was to try to give a wider season-to-season comparison as for some fans we veer towards despair when we get a bad result.

But yes, the last nine games haven’t been great - two losses in Europe the worst of it, with the result in Belgrade the low point; and the draws in the league haven’t been too bad considering who we played. The League Cup was a toss up, but I’d have preferred to continue in that, not least to give fringe players more action. Still, as you say, 3 wins in 9 games is another way to look at it, and there needs to be improvement. I think there will be, but in the meantime we’re unbeaten in the league and two points off top spot, and while Europe has been patchy we’re still in the fight in a very tough group.
yes I agree its needed as I've heard one or two slightly worrisome little things from people who have just looked at moments in isolation. I'm more than happy with our position. I'm p***ed off with City being what they are but can do very little about it.

But I'm disappointed in how we've played. yes results matter most but when you play well the results come easier. Plus, being brutally honest you fully expect us to be better than we have been. Perhaps Tuesday was the kick that has been needed.
 

Red over the water

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Yep, performance level has definitely been below what we expect for too many games. Hopefully a kick up the backside and a positive response against Fulham will see hope rising again, and even more if Man Utd do something against Man City.
 

kopend79

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I think it’s fairly obvious that the Shaqiri decision was taken fairly late in the day.
I think it’s fairly obvious that the Shaqiri decision was taken fairly late in the day.
I just find it strange that in in our last two games which included an away trip to Arsenal and an away game in the champions league our one in form attacking player has less minutes than lallana and sturridge and about the same as origi. No problems with shaqiri being left home if its a safety reason but we have known about this trip for awhile now. Just a lot of poor decisions made for this game. This might just be wishful thinking but ive convinced myself this will be a turning point and we're gona rediscover our form.
 

Quagmire81

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If the round ended today, Napoli would top the group on head to head play. Since it is not over today, we top the group on Goal diff. Is that how its done?
I guess since we only meet once it's on goal diff, after both games are played head to head may become a factor if the goal diff is the same :think:
 

Hope in your heart

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Its a very interesting enigma we'll probably have to chew at for a long time. Mostly supposition. But it could seem as there was a disagreement over style and philosophy which ultimately compromised Buvac's professionalism? I dont know for sure, but the circumstances to support that are present.

Further to your point about the worth of support of an assistant, sometimes the strength lies in the duality of minds, the support and inspiration they lend each other. The only comparable example I have is Brian Clough and Peter Taylor, whereas once Clough lost Taylor, his management prowess dipped considerably, and this ultimately led to his demise. He also started to worsen on drink. I dont think the issues are separate either but likely, pari passu, it may have been drink that drove a wedge between them, or made Clough less of a partner. Not that drink is relevant here, but Klopp does look isolated at times. And we look much diluted on the field. Shandy actually.
I tend to think about the Rafa-Ayesteran pair these days. When they split up, they both lost something.