POST MATCH: Red Star v Liverpool (UCL 6/11/18 5.55pm)

Man of the Match


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redbj

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Its weird. I’m going in reverse here. Normally over time a performance seems to be less ‘bad’ than I initially thought. This time its the opposite. The more I watch it, the more I think about it, the more last night’s effort seems unacceptable. Its not that we lost but it was our attitude, our approach, the complete lack of effort or teamwork.

Our midfield was spineless, gutless, lazy, lacking in commitment, anonymous.

Klopp’s selection seemed complacent, presumptious, clueless, disrespectful.

There is no point in talking about the rest of the side because if you’re midfield unit goes AWOL en bloc for 90+ minutes there’s only ever going to be one outcome. They should hang their heads in collective shame after last night.

We approached the game, players and manager alike, as if all we had to do was turn up, score a couple of goals, keep a clean sheet and leave and we’d take the 3 points home with us. Routine stuff. In the bag.

Instead, they got what they deserved. Absolutely nothing. Its all very well dishing out a collective bollocking to the players - and they should bloody well get one - but this time Klopp should take a long hard look at himself as well.

Matip, Sturridge and Lallana should not be starting an ECL match in a group containing these sides. There is no cannon fodder in this group. You need a solid midfield trio. Fabinho was admittedly poor against Arsenal but that doesn’t justify not selecting him alongside Gini to provide some midfield steel. Lallana’s form is nowhere near good enough. A Shaqiri he is not.

On last night’s performance Matip proved that he is not up to it at ECL level. Klavan would have been a much better option if we hadn’t let him go. Matip really is 4th choice by some distance at the moment and you shouldn’t play your 4th choice CB in the ECL unless your are experiencing an injury crisis in that position.

The selection, preparation and performance was what you’d expect from ECL novices not last season’s finalists. It was absolutely dreadful.

Yep.

Games like that make you ponder if the fix is actually in.
 

Mascot88

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I tend to think about the Rafa-Ayesteran pair these days. When they split up, they both lost something.
To be fair, when Rafa and Paco split, Rafa then went on to nearly win the league.
 

Hope in your heart

Loyalty and patience, two undervalued concepts...
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To be fair, when Rafa and Paco split, Rafa then went on to nearly win the league.
I know, but I still feel that something got broken then. Pako split with Rafa on september first of 2007. That season, we couldn't really build on the progress curve we had had until then. And the title run in 2009 was Rafa's swan song as we know now.

I don't say that this is all down to Pako leaving. The main culprits were of course g+h, who systemically destroyed Rafa's stellar work by not supporting him at all.

But still... the trophies with Valencia, Istanbul 2005, the FA cup in 2006, Athens in 2007 (unlucky not to win that game)... and then? Curtains in terms of trophies or even finals. I don't think it's a haphazard that the start of our and also Rafa's trophy drought coincided with Pako and Rafa splitting up, even though I understand that other important factors played a role in that.
 

redalways

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I know, but I still feel that something got broken then. Pako split with Rafa on september first of 2007. That season, we couldn't really build on the progress curve we had had until then. And the title run in 2009 was Rafa's swan song as we know now.

I don't say that this is all down to Pako leaving. The main culprits were of course g+h, who systemically destroyed Rafa's stellar work by not supporting him at all.

But still... the trophies with Valencia, Istanbul 2005, the FA cup in 2006, Athens in 2007 (unlucky not to win that game)... and then? Curtains in terms of trophies or even finals. I don't think it's a haphazard that the start of our and also Rafa's trophy drought coincided with Pako and Rafa splitting up, even though I understand that other important factors played a role in that.
And yet in 2007-08 we reached the Champions League semi-finals, and the quarter-finals in 2008-09 while maintaining a title challenge. In 2009-10, despite crashing out of the Champions League group stages, we still made it to the semi-finals of the Europa League, losing only to the eventual winners Atletico. Notably, we performed particularly badly in that last season because we had multiple injuries in a squad that had little investment for a while. It's a convenient narrative, but unfortunately doesn't really hold much water when you think about it...
 

Mascot88

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And yet in 2007-08 we reached the Champions League semi-finals, and the quarter-finals in 2008-09 while maintaining a title challenge. In 2009-10, despite crashing out of the Champions League group stages, we still made it to the semi-finals of the Europa League, losing only to the eventual winners Atletico. Notably, we performed particularly badly in that last season because we had multiple injuries in a squad that had little investment for a while. It's a convenient narrative, but unfortunately doesn't really hold much water when you think about it...
I remember going to see us get beat at craven cottage that year, and we had something like 12 first team players out. It was ridiculous.
 

shachart

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I know, but I still feel that something got broken then. Pako split with Rafa on september first of 2007. That season, we couldn't really build on the progress curve we had had until then. And the title run in 2009 was Rafa's swan song as we know now.

I don't say that this is all down to Pako leaving. The main culprits were of course g+h, who systemically destroyed Rafa's stellar work by not supporting him at all.

But still... the trophies with Valencia, Istanbul 2005, the FA cup in 2006, Athens in 2007 (unlucky not to win that game)... and then? Curtains in terms of trophies or even finals. I don't think it's a haphazard that the start of our and also Rafa's trophy drought coincided with Pako and Rafa splitting up, even though I understand that other important factors played a role in that.
I have nothing but fond memories of Rafa, and I will always hold him in the highest regards. Having said that, he probably managed the most talented and balanced teams we had in the last 20 years. Torres, Alonso, Mascherano, Gerrard, Riena just to name a few, and the fact that he hasn't won anything with them will always be a black stain on his time with us.
 

redalways

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I have nothing but fond memories of Rafa, and I will always hold him in the highest regards. Having said that, he probably managed the most talented and balanced teams we had in the last 20 years. Torres, Alonso, Mascherano, Gerrard, Riena just to name a few, and the fact that he hasn't won anything with them will always be a black stain on his time with us.
Apart from the fact that at that time, United went on a winning streak that was quite remarkable (until City recently of course). It's often thought of as though we somehow fell short by being inadequate, without acknowledging that we quite simply did not have the squad nor the luck (nor the influence with referees) to win the league.
 

shachart

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Apart from the fact that at that time, United went on a winning streak that was quite remarkable (until City recently of course). It's often thought of as though we somehow fell short by being inadequate, without acknowledging that we quite simply did not have the squad nor the luck (nor the influence with referees) to win the league.
No disrespect, but that is rubbish.
If I remember correctly, we lost twice and had 8 draws that season. Utd actually lost more matches than we did. Those draws were against lower teams , a lot of them were scoreless, and I remember watching them and it was like seeing paint dry, that how bad we played in those games.
It had nothing to do with luck or referees, simply notbeing consistant.
 

ILLOK

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No disrespect, but that is rubbish.
If I remember correctly, we lost twice and had 8 draws that season. Utd actually lost more matches than we did. Those draws were against lower teams , a lot of them were scoreless, and I remember watching them and it was like seeing paint dry, that how bad we played in those games.
It had nothing to do with luck or referees, simply notbeing consistant.
Gerrard and Torres missed a lot of games through injury. United had more options up front. That was the difference.
 

shachart

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Gerrard and Torres missed a lot of games through injury. United had more options up front. That was the difference.
That team did not win the title, nor FA cup or any cup for that matter.
Like I said, Rafa was great manager and I hold him in the highest regards, he won us silverware with mediocre teams at best, but that team under acheived. Plain and simple.
 

ILLOK

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That team did not win the title, nor FA cup or any cup for that matter.
Like I said, Rafa was great manager and I hold him in the highest regards, he won us silverware with mediocre teams at best, but that team under acheived. Plain and simple.
It came up against a more expensive, more talented one.

We could get 90+ points this season and still win nothing, that's just the way it goes.
 

Limiescouse

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That team did not win the title, nor FA cup or any cup for that matter.
Like I said, Rafa was great manager and I hold him in the highest regards, he won us silverware with mediocre teams at best, but that team under acheived. Plain and simple.
Well, if you're defining that side that narrowly, then it was only together for 2 years.

In that span we came
- 4th in a year when two of the sides above us contested the CL final, while losing to one in the CL semi by the tightest of margins
-2nd, losing only to the regining European champions with quite possibly Fergie's best ever side and one that required a record breaking run in to stay ahead us.

All this was done while the club was ripping itself apart from the inside, something that was to toxically spill out by the 3rd year.
 

Arminius

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No disrespect, but that is rubbish.
If I remember correctly, we lost twice and had 8 draws that season. Utd actually lost more matches than we did. Those draws were against lower teams , a lot of them were scoreless, and I remember watching them and it was like seeing paint dry, that how bad we played in those games.
It had nothing to do with luck or referees, simply notbeing consistant.
Torres played 24 times in the league that season, and that is the sheer firepower that we remember. But that summer was really the season where Rafa started to get undercut by Hicks in particular. although it would get much worse. When it wasn't Torres, it was Keane or N'gog, or even El Zhar. Not surprisingly, we were astonishingly blunt, those three had 7 goals in 38 appearances, we got more goals from Benayoun. That was not at all what Rafa wanted to see from his transfers that summer.
 

shachart

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It came up against a more expensive, more talented one.

We could get 90+ points this season and still win nothing, that's just the way it goes.
Well, if you're defining that side that narrowly, then it was only together for 2 years.

In that span we came
- 4th in a year when two of the sides above us contested the CL final, while losing to one in the CL semi by the tightest of margins
-2nd, losing only to the regining European champions with quite possibly Fergie's best ever side and one that required a record breaking run in to stay ahead us.

All this was done while the club was ripping itself apart from the inside, something that was to toxically spill out by the 3rd year.
Torres played 24 times in the league that season, and that is the sheer firepower that we remember. But that summer was really the season where Rafa started to get undercut by Hicks in particular. although it would get much worse. When it wasn't Torres, it was Keane or N'gog, or even El Zhar. Not surprisingly, we were astonishingly blunt, those three had 7 goals in 38 appearances, we got more goals from Benayoun. That was not at all what Rafa wanted to see from his transfers that summer.
Almost all true ( I don't think Utd had a better team than we had ), still the bottom line is the same. Just as the 2005 squad over acheived, that squad didn't.
Btw- I am not puttung this just on Rafa, it is the players and management. That team should have won something.