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POST Match: Sunderland 1-1 Liverpool (15.09.12)

Ataturk

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Not the worst result, going to ones of the toughest places in the league, and we deserved to win.

Raheem was the main positive with Gerrard being the main negative. He was woeful and it seems like he can't or won't play the way Rodgers is aiming for. He has no patience and always goes straight for goal, resulting in him giving it away far too often, especially a problem with him playing a deeper role.

I couldn't believe Shearer's analysis where he tried to paint Joe Allen as being the problem. Allen apparently was making the "easy passes" and Stevie was "trying to do something" (demonstrated by showing one or two of the few Hollywood balls that actually did come off). Goes to show the importance of watching the game for yourself because some of these ex-pros haven't got a clue.
 


redbj

hurry up, July 1st, let's get the show on the road
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actually dont know where the gerrard bashing comes from, and as for the allen bigging up, he gave the ball away countless times during the game, for a get ball pass ball midfielder he was well below par vs sunderland.

just goes to show though, once we get an idea in our heads, it takes more than just facts to change it.

im not saying gerrard was great, but he was far from terible.

jonjo and joe i thought played a lot worse.

can i ask....where is joe cole in all of this?

i dont think he even made the bench, im happy to accept that hes not a long term fixture at this club, im happy to accept hes a bit of a prick, im even happy to accept that rodgers probably wants to start a fresh without that type of influence hanging around, but surely, at around 60 minutes yesterday, when jonjo was struggling to change the game, somebody like cole might have offered something....surely.
 

EdWood

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Off topic: I see filth supporters were up to their old antics at old toilet yesterday despite whisky-noses's plea for some repect to be shown. Quite evil of them actually.

On topic: I believe that last season this match would have fizzled out in a 0-1 defeat as we generally showed very little fighting spirit when we would go behind in a game; it says much that we hit back at them despite having no striker worthy of the name and Downing on the pitch at the same time. I'm longing to get a good look at Assaidi but he must be still getting to grips with the speed of the game here or not fully match fit.
 

Toynster

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Guy's we need to keep calm, nothing in football happens overnight. The time to show reall support for our team is when things are not going right. Having a go at SG is plain crazy he is and will always be a liverpool legend. Do not under estimate what confidence can do, we might not have much at the mo but as players feel more comfortable with the new system, things will change YNWA
 

T.C.B

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I thought we played pretty well yesterday. Gave another poor goal away which is worrying though. We always seem to struggle against sunderland away so it has to be positive that we came back after going behind. Its a fact that with another goal scorer on the pitch we probably would have won it but its pointless making that point again.
Top marks to Raheem who will be a top player especially when he gets a bit stronger physically. Lewis plugged away also which pleased me although Stevie looked a bit jaded in the 2nd half.
Was hoping Assaidi would get a run out, hopefully thursday we get to see what hes like in the flesh.
The team badly needs a win to settle things down. Praying that it will be against the Mancs next weekend.
 



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actually dont know where the gerrard bashing comes from, and as for the allen bigging up, he gave the ball away countless times during the game, for a get ball pass ball midfielder he was well below par vs sunderland.

just goes to show though, once we get an idea in our heads, it takes more than just facts to change it.

im not saying gerrard was great, but he was far from terible.

jonjo and joe i thought played a lot worse.
The thing with Gerrard is that he is the team captain and from a team captain you expect a certain level of performance and leadership. To me he has not been showing that in recent games and there have been quite a few occasions where after giving possession away or losing the ball his head has just dropped and he has made little effort to win the ball (although yesterday towards the end there was one occasion where he did show great determination after I think it was Downing who gave the ball away).

These are the stats from this season's premier league games:

Sunderland


Total shots (Gerrard) = 3.

Arsenal

Total shots (Gerrard) = 1.

Man City
`
Total shots (Gerrard) = 3.

`West Brom

Total shots (Gerrard) = 3.


As you can see Gerrard has been pretty average so far this season and the point I am making is that just like the majority of other players are also selected based on their performances so should he. And being captain of the team he needs to show a bit more responsibility when we are playing badly and not just get sucked into the dross that may be on display. Maybe it's because I still have fantastic memories of the Gerrard of 3-4 years ago that I am putting a bit too much expectation on him but he still needs to show a bit more than he has been recently.

Guy's we need to keep calm, nothing in football happens overnight. The time to show reall support for our team is when things are not going right. Having a go at SG is plain crazy he is and will always be a liverpool legend. Do not under estimate what confidence can do, we might not have much at the mo but as players feel more comfortable with the new system, things will change YNWA
Being a Liverpool legend does not make you immune to criticism. No one is bigger than the club.
 
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Gerrard clearly cannot tear round the pitch for 90 minutes anymore...however who on the bench or in our squad would do a better job. The key word is adapting, it is not and will not work instantly Lucas's injury has really thrown a spanner in the works in regards to making the system work. As for the possesion it it a vast improvement on last season where we spent most of the time in our own half defending.
Sahin definitely and Hendo also deserves a chance if the other CM's show they are not up to scratch. And I can only remember a few games last season where we "spent most of the time defending in our own half". The rest is basically the same story of creating a lot of half decent chances and only being able to convert 1/15. We desperately needed to recruit a clinical forward in the summer to finish those chances and instead we again failed to address what should have been our number 1 priority. We can all be as optimistic as we want but going with past experience I can't see us having a much better season than last. And it will be due to no one elses fault but ourselves.
 

srobertms89

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I have the sad feeling that Gerrard is past it. His decision making is nowhere near what it used to be.
 

Red-Red

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Patience is definitely the key word here in regards to this Liverpool side.

Patience in ball retention and possession, and patience required from the fans and everybody associated with the club.

It would be very easy to knee-jerk in these circumstances when you look at the where we are in the league table, not to mention when you have the media throwing statistics at you every 5 minutes with all of the doom and gloom about "the worst start since (insert random date here)". Though the media's agenda in doing whatever is required to rile up the supporters shouldn't be ignored, especially in light of the recent events at the club. But to stay on topic, it is clear by the football being played on the pitch that Rodgers philosophy is slowly beginning to unfold on the team, with slight improvements appearing each week.

It isn't going to happen over night though. Especially when you look at the players that have left the club, the lack of players brought in, the players at the club still trying to adjust (Gerrard) and the options that are now available. I don't think it would be unfair to say that collectively we have one of, if not the, most limited striking options in the league, especially in light of Caroll's departure. But all of these factors need to be taken in account when assessing where this team is and where crucially, it could potentially go.

The transfer window was a debacle for the club in my opinion and it is going to take a couple more until we start to see real progress with this team. Until then, the optimistic, and most sensible thing to do, would be to just weather the storm and watch the development of this team with it's young hopefuls coming through.

Short-term, Grandiose expectations here are whats going to keep the club back.
 

AnfieldCat

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What really annoyed me is a few minutes to go, Reina gets the ball and instead of clearing it long to try and get a goal he passed it short, a few players passed it round to each other and then it went back to Reina, what is the point of that?
 



yiannos33

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We were the better side yesterday but we need a striker that can find the back of the net and can take pressure off Suarez.
Next transfer window I hope fsg gets it together with Rogers and buy a striker and a decent goalie to give Pepe a run for his money.
 

shachart

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after 4 games its a bit early to write off a season, but i think the transfer window ( not just the last day ) preety much gave this season away.
the problem is not just the lack of forwards, back in 06-07 if i'm not mistaken we had a similar problem and neil mellor scored at fa final against west ham. starting a season with no forwards is bad enough, but with no midfield ?
Lucas got injured and is ruled out untill decmeber, so what do you ? you give away adam and spearing his backups. you can't push gerrard forward becuase he has to stay back and help Allen.
its nice to have a new system and all that crap, but you need players, even bad ones. rafa had a squad of 63 players. there are less than 40 today.
kenny may have did some bad investments. but BR giving them all away, is even a worse call.
 

LiVeRp0oL89

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You can't say anymore than what's already been said. Same old story as last year.. controlled large parts of the game, hit the woodwork a couple of times, opposition score from one shot on target..

We'd have a very good squad if we actually had a couple of forwards in the team. Our cock up's in the transfer window have effectively ruined our season (or half of it atleast). Gutted really..

I'm not going to get on Brendan's case one bit though, the problem lies with the players. Their mental state is what's making scoring a goal seem like a monumental task. We can only hope that with some good fortune, our players start taking more chances. Players like Suarez, Gerrard, Borini, even Shelvey and Sterling. We might not have a prolific finisher but these players are more than capable of scoring a good amount between them, I certainly hope so.
 

1dragon

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My thoughts on this match have been mentioned by others in the thread, so I will just list a couple more observations.

- Referee
For once, we had a referee who had generally a good game. Yes, he made a few mistakes like the booking of Suarez (when there was clear contact, although not enough to warrant a penalty) and the budge on Johnson which went un-noticed. Other than that, he played a fair game, was impartial and may I say, even quite lenient towards Sterling and Kelly (and subsequently, Rose). So, no blaming of the referee this time.

- Fighting spirit
For the second game in a row, our team seems to show a will to fight back despite going down first. The game against Arsenal was the first, with players refusing to throw in the towel even after 2-0 down. They were not rewarded for their efforts in that game. Against Sunderland, a similar situation occurred: Our team is in the ascendancy and the opposition suddenly scores with the first attempt on goal. Instead of feeling sorry for themselves, the players rose to the challenge and were rewarded this time. This fighting spirit was missing since the penultimate year of Rafa's era, so it is a welcome sight indeed. Long may this continue!

- Gerrard
He was much better yesterday, but, I felt one of him or Shelvey should have been subbed off for Nuri Sahin. With Allen uncharacteristically losing possession easily yesterday, we needed a calm presence in midfield to allow a more patient build up play. Nuri can do it, rather than Shelvey or Gerrard, who tend to prefer the more direct route. This brings me to another point: With Gerrard getting on, should he now play more as a super sub role especially in games against "lower opposition"? Gerrard still has the ability to change games on his own, but he cannot sustain it over ninety minutes every single game. But if the patient build up play fails to do so, Gerrard can be brought on as a sub to change the pace of the game, and hopefully, he can contribute more in a 30 minute appearance compared to a 90 minute marathon.

- Reina and Skrtel
Not the first time it has happened this season, and this is becoming more and more worrying as it has costs us goals and points. I do not know who is the root cause of the problem, but they had better sort out this mess soon.
 

kenno91

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We all know we need a goalscorer so can anyone tell me what this german kid we bought for a million is like in front of goal and would you give him a shot or is it way to early for him to be in the team?

Still wish we signed Defoe
 



coughing

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feels good to be back in the forums. My thoughts on this are -

Since we are so lacking in attack, why do we continue playing the same players who are producing not enough? Assaidi now has almost a month of training with his new teammates, and hes a real unknown quantity.

Unpredictability, a bit of pace on him, why not throw him into the mix if things arent going well? I would understand if we found out he was shite once he got here, but he's made the bench a couple times, and suarez isnt going to be as creative as the last man up there.

We are reaping of throwing Sterling into the starting line up, teams are putting 2 men on him every match now, if Assaidi can beat a man or two, which he did regularly in Holland, we can be more dangerous on the attack...Sterling, Assaidi, Suarez, they cant all be marked at once by 2 men.
 

lfc.eddie

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Sterling, Assaidi, Suarez, they cant all be marked at once by 2 men.
Well that would mean we need goal scoring midfielder, with each of the 3 taking away 2 players each. The idea is to do so and then having our fullbacks push forward and having Shelvey, Gerrard and Sahin could play that goal scoring role quite easily. I don't think Borini is ready for the league, and while he worked hard chasing defenders down we bought him to score goals.

Allen may need a bit of a breather sooner rather than later. He did not look as good as he has been. That said, Sunderland pressured us well. You can see from the interceptions and tackles stats, they were on top of us.

Lastly, I do wish referee take a closer look on tackles against Sterling. He had 2 lunges went towards him, he is quick enough to avoid it.
 

T.C.B

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Lastly, I do wish referee take a closer look on tackles against Sterling. He had 2 lunges went towards him, he is quick enough to avoid it.


Totally agree. Both had me holding my breath waiting for him to get up unhurt. A bad injury at his stage could set him back to a position he might never recover from.
 

redbj

hurry up, July 1st, let's get the show on the road
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yeah that one in the dying minutes was ridiculous, if that had of made contact it was roy keane bad. shocking.
 

ChicagoRed

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I found this a bit interesting:

Tactics Board
Posted by Richard Jolly
SUNDERLAND 1-1 LIVERPOOL



It wasn't quite deja vu but there were certainly similarities. It will probably prove a simplification, if not wrong altogether, to say that one system and one approach is a guarantee of success against Liverpool but Sunderland's gameplan was rather reminiscent of West Bromwich Albion's four weeks earlier when they won 3-0.

In both games, the home side played like the away team. Both played 4-2-3-1 - as Arsenal also did in their 2-0 win at Anfield - and both dropped deep, ceding both possession and territory and then counter-attacking. Liverpool had the ball for 66% of the game at the Stadium of Light. While Sunderland had spells of pressure, for the majority of the game they retreated to conserve energy and challenged Liverpool to break them down.

Just as Albion's two holding midfielders, Youssouf Mulumbu and Claudio Yacob, stayed close to their two centre-backs, so did their Sunderland counterparts, Lee Cattermole and Jack Colback. The aim is to limit the space between the lines, to force Liverpool to operate in wider positions and further from the opposition's goal.

That Sunderland's focus was on position, not pressing is evident from the statistics. Liverpool's anchor midfielder, Joe Allen, was allowed to be on the ball and completed 103 passes, more than Cattermole, Colback, James McClean and Seb Larsson managed between them. Their importance lay less in their efforts on the ball than off it and the absence of the injured Adam Johnson, a more attack-minded but less defensively-disciplined winger, may have helped Sunderland's shape as Larsson moved to the right and they stationed two banks of four in front of Simon Mignolet's goal.

As in the Albion game, being organised wasn't quite the same as keeping Liverpool quiet. The visitors had 23 efforts on goal and six before Sunderland's first - and only - attempt on target. But, in another common denominator, they did not score the opening goal of the game, which would have drawn the home side out.

In both games, too, Luis Suarez has had a series of shots: eight at the Hawthorns and six at Sunderland, one bringing his second goal of the season, but only three of those 14 have been on target.

Liverpool were the superior side at 0-0 in both games, but then trailed 1-0. As with the majority of goals they conceded last season, individual errors, rather than tactical failings, were the cause. The immediate issue was poor defending by Martin Skrtel, allowing Steven Fletcher to get beyond him, but the build-up was also notable for mistakes. As Craig Gardner, Sunderland's right-back, came forward, Liverpool had two players in reasonable positions: left-back Glen Johnson and, tracking back from as the left of the front three, Suarez. The problem was that both made flimsy challenges, allowing Gardner to go past them and cross.

That Suarez was on the flank was notable. Rodgers tweaked his tactics in two ways: Steven Gerrard, who had been the most advanced of the three central midfielders, operated further back and closer to Allen and Jonjo Shelvey, and the front three alternated more often. At various points four players - Suarez, Raheem Sterling, Fabio Borini and the substitute Stewart Downing - were the left winger with the Uruguayan taking the longest turn there. Sterling, who had spent virtually all of his embryonic career on the left, was on the right for much of the match. It gave Liverpool a different threat: whereas Borini, as more of a striker, looks infield when on the right, Sterling was prepared to go outside his full-back, Danny Rose, and that led to Suarez's goal.

The statistical anomaly that Liverpool have not led, let alone won, against a team with a back four (Manchester City played 3-4-1-1 at Anfield) suggests more teams may play 4-4-1-1 or 4-2-3-1 against them and the reality that they have not been ahead in those matches means Albion, Arsenal and Sunderland have never had to chase the game. One advantage of Rodgers' philosophy for opponents is that they can predict his formation and set up accordingly. Perhaps a blueprint has been established by West Brom and now Sunderland.
 



OhYaBeauty

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We all know we need a goalscorer so can anyone tell me what this german kid we bought for a million is like in front of goal and would you give him a shot or is it way to early for him to be in the team?

Still wish we signed Defoe
I think Yesil is worth giving a shot. When he played for the German U19s recently, he scored three in two games and had an assist. He reminds me of Torres in that he's quick, has good positional instinct, and finishes well. He's also strong enough to not get shrugged off the ball easily and has a few tricks up his sleeve.

I haven't seen much of his play, but I've been impressed with what I've seen
 

alaskared

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Stevie G retiring from international football would be the change we need. He looked exhausted on Saturday.
 

CSR1984

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I found this a bit interesting:

Tactics Board
Posted by Richard Jolly SUNDERLAND 1-1 LIVERPOOL



It wasn't quite deja vu but there were certainly similarities. It will probably prove a simplification, if not wrong altogether, to say that one system and one approach is a guarantee of success against Liverpool but Sunderland's gameplan was rather reminiscent of West Bromwich Albion's four weeks earlier when they won 3-0.

In both games, the home side played like the away team. Both played 4-2-3-1 - as Arsenal also did in their 2-0 win at Anfield - and both dropped deep, ceding both possession and territory and then counter-attacking. Liverpool had the ball for 66% of the game at the Stadium of Light. While Sunderland had spells of pressure, for the majority of the game they retreated to conserve energy and challenged Liverpool to break them down.

Just as Albion's two holding midfielders, Youssouf Mulumbu and Claudio Yacob, stayed close to their two centre-backs, so did their Sunderland counterparts, Lee Cattermole and Jack Colback. The aim is to limit the space between the lines, to force Liverpool to operate in wider positions and further from the opposition's goal.

That Sunderland's focus was on position, not pressing is evident from the statistics. Liverpool's anchor midfielder, Joe Allen, was allowed to be on the ball and completed 103 passes, more than Cattermole, Colback, James McClean and Seb Larsson managed between them. Their importance lay less in their efforts on the ball than off it and the absence of the injured Adam Johnson, a more attack-minded but less defensively-disciplined winger, may have helped Sunderland's shape as Larsson moved to the right and they stationed two banks of four in front of Simon Mignolet's goal.

As in the Albion game, being organised wasn't quite the same as keeping Liverpool quiet. The visitors had 23 efforts on goal and six before Sunderland's first - and only - attempt on target. But, in another common denominator, they did not score the opening goal of the game, which would have drawn the home side out.

In both games, too, Luis Suarez has had a series of shots: eight at the Hawthorns and six at Sunderland, one bringing his second goal of the season, but only three of those 14 have been on target.

Liverpool were the superior side at 0-0 in both games, but then trailed 1-0. As with the majority of goals they conceded last season, individual errors, rather than tactical failings, were the cause. The immediate issue was poor defending by Martin Skrtel, allowing Steven Fletcher to get beyond him, but the build-up was also notable for mistakes. As Craig Gardner, Sunderland's right-back, came forward, Liverpool had two players in reasonable positions: left-back Glen Johnson and, tracking back from as the left of the front three, Suarez. The problem was that both made flimsy challenges, allowing Gardner to go past them and cross.

That Suarez was on the flank was notable. Rodgers tweaked his tactics in two ways: Steven Gerrard, who had been the most advanced of the three central midfielders, operated further back and closer to Allen and Jonjo Shelvey, and the front three alternated more often. At various points four players - Suarez, Raheem Sterling, Fabio Borini and the substitute Stewart Downing - were the left winger with the Uruguayan taking the longest turn there. Sterling, who had spent virtually all of his embryonic career on the left, was on the right for much of the match. It gave Liverpool a different threat: whereas Borini, as more of a striker, looks infield when on the right, Sterling was prepared to go outside his full-back, Danny Rose, and that led to Suarez's goal.

The statistical anomaly that Liverpool have not led, let alone won, against a team with a back four (Manchester City played 3-4-1-1 at Anfield) suggests more teams may play 4-4-1-1 or 4-2-3-1 against them and the reality that they have not been ahead in those matches means Albion, Arsenal and Sunderland have never had to chase the game. One advantage of Rodgers' philosophy for opponents is that they can predict his formation and set up accordingly. Perhaps a blueprint has been established by West Brom and now Sunderland.
Really interesting read. Was really dissapointed with the goal we received, the challenges from Johnson and Skrtel seemed half arsed. However I liked the way we responded. We didn't seem to panic like we did in the West Brom game and didn't rush our attacks. I probably would have took a point before the game, as we have a mixed record at Sunderland. But in hindsight, I thought we deserved to win the game, so a little disspointed we didn't take all 3 points.
 

gb1986

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Feels so good to have the forums back!

Not got much to say about the game that hasn't already been said about previous games, we lack a cutting edge and need to start putting chances away.

I was a bit disappointed to see Downing come on instead of Assaidi too... in fact i was disappointed not to see Assaidi at all but oh well.

I'll be honest and say i was worried about the Sunderland game, i wasn't optimistic about it and i'm so glad we managed to get a goal back to save a point.

I have to say i agreed with Shearer a little about Joe Allen on MOTD. I think Allen is great, he's a player we've needed for a long time. But he has the passing ability to play it forward more often. And whereas Gerrard would rather play the ball forward, he always picks the most difficult pass out of the lot.

I was quite impressed with Shelvey yesterday but i'm seeing a lot of instances not just regarding Shelvey but everyone, where they'd rather have a go themselves than set someone up for an easier chance and i think our performance in front of goal is going to keep going the same way until people start getting their head up and picking out the pass instead.

I've said it before i don't think we play the little 1-2's and make enough runs in and around the box. When we finally get up the pitch our movement is terrible.

Anyway i'm sure it will all get better, hoping when Assaidi gets a chance we might be a little more aggressive up front.
 



Libero

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Really deserved 3 points, although now the script is written to get our first win against the scum.
 

MarlboroMan

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Anyone else pissed that Rodgers took off Borini for Downing? I was fuming at the time, have cooled off now but still can't figure out why would you take off a striker for a wide player that can't create or score. With Sahin and Assaidi on the bench too Rodgers chooses to count on Downing? I was hoping that Kelly was coming off for Downing, so he could go to LB and switch Glen back to RB.

We also still aren't creating enough quality chances, still just a bunch of them which are really just half chances. Too similar to last season, personally I don't see too much that has changed so far other than we are so much worse defensively.
 

gb1986

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Gif of the Suarez penalty claim for which he was given a yellow card.



I can guarantee if this was a Manchester United player like Asley Young or Danny Welbeck it would have been given 9 times out of 10. Even Long went down with less contact for West Brom and both his penalty claims were awarded.
It was a penalty... what pissed me off was the commentary and live text on BBC... people saying he went down too easily so rightly deserved a yellow, yet in other cases, namely Welbeck on the same day, the reaction is 'But there was contact, so it is a penalty'... Normally pundits commentators etc will say if there's contact in the box it's a penalty... except when Luis Suarez is involved obviously.
 
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It was a penalty... what pissed me off was the commentary and live text on BBC... people saying he went down too easily so rightly deserved a yellow, yet in other cases, namely Welbeck on the same day, the reaction is 'But there was contact, so it is a penalty'... Normally pundits commentators etc will say if there's contact in the box it's a penalty... except when Luis Suarez is involved obviously.
This one?



One of the most blatant dives you will see and yet he actually got awarded a penalty. Impartial refereeing my arse!
 

What a RUSH

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Aug 8, 2008
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In terms of this match, I am disapointed witht eh result but not surprised. Most teams find it difficult after the 1st international, especially a team going through a transition in playing style like ours. I agree with a previous post who alluded to Alan Shearers comments on Joe Allen, he is a great player, but during this match I kept wishing he would get his head up and look for that forward pass.

We could argue we deserved to win this one, but when you reflect and think of our lack of penetration and poor defending at time then you can accept a point is a good result.

I always knew the revolution would not happen over night, coupled with our starting fixtures I was prepared for a tough start. Young boys next then Man utd in the league...we have done them over a few times in recent history when we really needed it, so lets get behind the lads and get our first win on the board.

YNWA