• Hey Guest!
    Enjoy the This Is Anfield Forums but want to remove the adverts? Now you can do so by clicking here.
    Thanks for your support!

Post match thread: Swansea 2 Liverpool 2

Seamus

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2013
Messages
713
Yeah I thought Lucas had a good game last night and intercepted a lot of play. He did look a bit fresher than he has of late and I thought he covered the pitch quiet well.
 


Canuck33

Banned Users
Joined
Aug 31, 2013
Messages
425
RedRiot said:
Putting Gerrard back in the AM position is a terrible idea. He doesn't have the pace or the stamina for it, and I'm pretty sure playing there is what caused him to have repeated groin injuries for the several years prior to moving back. He's good where he is as long as he's involved. Last night he wasn't - he didn't seem mentally in the game to me at all, and so while we usually have two men dictating play -Gerrard and Coutinho - last night we really only had one. Even when we were on top. If coutinho's out, then I think we're best to just revert to the 4-3-3, with the 2-1 midfield and have Henderson play centrally. If he's out beyond one match, then do that or have Suarez play behind Sturridge and bring Aspas or Sterling in on the right.

Oh, and I still don't know what game a lot of people were watching when they say Lucas is slow. He was all over the pitch last night and looked a lot more mobile than he has in months. I think the international break helped him a lot. I think he was one of our better players - he won a lot in the air but was impaired somewhat by having a jaded midfield partner.
Good post this! There was very little wrong with Lucas' game and quite a bit with Gerrard's. When Aspas came in for Coutinho we lost the connection between midfield and attack. The wheels came off completely at that point. Should've put Aspas wide and pulled Henderson central. I have a feeling Moses might end up playing right once Suarez comes back. Sturridge up front and Suarez and Coutinho swapping between left and central of the 3 in behind. We need to be shopping for a midfielder in January and maybe another next summer. At that point Alonso is gonna be available on a free.
 

EdWood

TIA Youth Team
Joined
Jun 2, 2011
Messages
5,793
koptician said:
How about putting Gerrard behind Sturridge and dropping Henderson next to Lucas (if coutinho is absent)?

I was going to ask about dominating possession myself. We seem to have completely jettisoned it.
An ideal scenario would have us two or three goals ahead, then starve the opposition of the ball by keeping it. So far this season we've been one goal ahead and just sat back (or been forced to by losing the midfield battle), surrendering possession whilst apparently hoping to hit them on the break. We should play patient football up to the halfway line and then choose what sort of pass to select, but patience seems to have gone out of the window. We give the other team far too much of the ball these days. Not good.
 

i_still_miss_fowler

Open Your Eyes Morty!
Moderator
Joined
Jun 23, 2005
Messages
7,160
RedRiot said:
Putting Gerrard back in the AM position is a terrible idea. He doesn't have the pace or the stamina for it, and I'm pretty sure playing there is what caused him to have repeated groin injuries for the several years prior to moving back. He's good where he is as long as he's involved. Last night he wasn't - he didn't seem mentally in the game to me at all, and so while we usually have two men dictating play -Gerrard and Coutinho - last night we really only had one. Even when we were on top. If coutinho's out, then I think we're best to just revert to the 4-3-3, with the 2-1 midfield and have Henderson play centrally. If he's out beyond one match, then do that or have Suarez play behind Sturridge and bring Aspas or Sterling in on the right. Oh, and I still don't know what game a lot of people were watching when they say Lucas is slow. He was all over the pitch last night and looked a lot more mobile than he has in months. I think the international break helped him a lot. I think he was one of our better players - he won a lot in the air but was impaired somewhat by having a jaded midfield partner.
I think this statement is an inaccurate assessment.

During Rafa's years when he played further forward, he was not injury prone. The last 4 years under Rafa he completed 40 to 50 games a season (not including internationals)

Gerrard got moved deeper under Hodgson (Hodgsons first game if memory serves me right), and has been a deeper midfielder since. It has been during this period when he developed more injuries (I believe primarily due to age).

Most of these injuries typically occurred when he was on England duty (where he also played deep).

His fitness under Rodgers for me is a combination of less games, better management and luck. However as one of the oldest players in the PL time is ticking and I would be very surprised if he can repeat last season, being relatively injury free.
 

zagueiro

TIA Squad Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2010
Messages
3,638
jayrrardno8 said:
Yeah the international break has helped sert players others it hasnt.
For one player it has a deptremental effect on is Stevie G the internationals is killing him and has done for years. (just wish he would just retire and concentarte on Liverpool).
Gerrard is more offective in Am than babysitting Lucas BR needs to address this.
our system is getting found out in games thats why we are getting done in 2nd half in games imo.
Gerrard does not babysit Lucas................jeez, open your eyes and watch what actually happens. I'm loathe to turn this into a Lucas v Gerrard post as I rate both of them, but it is plain wrong to say that Gerrard babysits Lucas, and you should get called out on such inaccurate comments.
 



jayrrardno8

TIA Reserve Team
Joined
Apr 15, 2009
Messages
1,170
zagueiro said:
Gerrard does not babysit Lucas................jeez, open your eyes and watch what actually happens. I'm loathe to turn this into a Lucas v Gerrard post as I rate both of them, but it is plain wrong to say that Gerrard babysits Lucas, and you should get called out on such inaccurate comments.
im not trying to turn it into a Gerrard v Lucas debate i also rate both Lucas especially.
just dont think Lucas and Gerrad compliment each other and its not effective.
 

grooveshark

Banned Users
Joined
Sep 18, 2012
Messages
2,452
EdWood said:
As wide midfielder/winger, he's about as effective as Dirk Kuyt was going forward. He's fine as a defensive wide man, where all he has to do is block and frustrate the opposition winger/wingback, but he just hasn't got the skill set to make it work going forward.

Like Dirk, this isn't his fault; he's being played out of position.
Teams are figuring it out that they dont really have to worry about him, they are going to dare him to prove them wrong and on most nights he most likely wont because he doesnt have that skillset, and unlike Kuyt, he doesnt have the goals that would justify starting him in an advanced role.
MarlboroMan said:
Was thinking that too, Coutinho hasn't started as well as we expected and now he could miss a few games. Let's hope it's not serious. But he was to be unavailable, who would we have in that position that could consistently create chances? There is Suarez yes but I'd prefer to see him as a wide forward moving around then the guy creating for others. Ideally in January we'd look to get in a versatile wide forward that can also play well in the #10 role. Muniain or Tadic, guys like that.



Not Henderson's biggest fan but his work rare is undeniable. He looked knackered in the last 15 minutes last night though and probably shouldn't be playing 90 minutes every match as he can't sustain that level of work load. Tactically he was way off against Swansea who kept forcing him in field and then swinging the ball wide to Davies to get a few uncontested crosses in. Didn't help Wisdom enough yesterday and provided his usual of very little in attack so was a passenger for much of the night.

Quite worried about two things, first our lack of either desire or ability to keep the ball, create chances and score goals in the second half. Maybe its a lack of fitness or planned that way so as to not burn the players out for the second half of the season, I don't know but it's a worrying trend.
Secondly our lack of chances created and goals scored by anyone not named Sturridge. Moses scored a good goal but he's the only one other than Daniel to score in 4 EPL matches. The Coutinho and Sturridge connection doesn't seem as strong as it was last season. Have clubs figured out how to play against Coutinho? He is getting more ruffed up this season as he plays more centrally. Will Coutinho figure out how to combat those that will seek to kick him out of the match.
Laudrup made noticed that they had much joy center of the pitch, also if you noticed in the first half, they kept on shifting Gerrard and Lucas form their positions and got openings like the first goal because it forced the CB's to get out of shape. Overloading the midfield and sacrificing width was the best way for Swansea to go. It wasnt that Henderson was an issue tactically in that regard.

As for Coutinho, he doesnt have as much to work with. I will compare to a team like Spurs where Ericksen will have Sigurdsson making runs wide, or Chadli, and on the opposite wing you have Townsend or Lamela who command respect and attention, and uptop Soldado, that gives you some sort of balance going forward.

I look at Arsenal, where you have Ozil as the creative hub, Cazorla as a playmaker off the left wing, Walcott as a scorer and assist raking winger on the opposite side, Giroud uptop, yet they can bring in Podolski or Chamberlain on the wings when fit.

All those teams have players you have to think about, you have to watch for and that not only opens up your playmaker's options, but it also buys them a bit more time on the ball or allows other teams to take their eyes of other players.

That balance doesnt exist because BR is always leveraging and giving up an option in attack for balance in defence. We saw last season when he went with Coutinho central and dropped Henderson just how much the team struggled to contain opposing teams, a good number of those games eventually ended up in lost points. That is one of the areas where an able DM this summer would have really helped, you set a solid platform at the back and that in turn allows you more flexibility in attack.

If teams need to come from behind,, there is hope that this team can somewhat grind out results, but if it should come to the point where points are needed in the last quarter of the game, then there may be issues especially if the attacking team has controlled most of the possession.
 

Semmy

tho your dreams be tossed and blown
Ad-free Member
Joined
Sep 2, 2013
Messages
8,585
Love StevieG, will always be the immortal #8. I don't doubt his skill, I believe that BR is expecting too much from him in the current setup. His ball distribution and vision outweigh any deficit implied by his age, but the current setup doesn't compliment that style of play.

Would much rather see him in a 4-1-2-1-2 form, playing in front of Lucas with Henderson in the middle which would allow Hendo to play a grittier role. Coutinho in front of the diamond as a setup man, and Suarez/Sturridge up front.

I think Ilori would work well in this role as well for a backup CM/CDM. He's spent the last few years as a CB but entered into his pro career as a striker/CF. Watch some of his work, he likes the ball at his feet and has a similar vision to SteveG but in a 6'3" frame with speed to burn. He's very fast, looks like a young Dembelé/Fellaini.

If we played a narrow width on the pitch, everyone in front of the D-line can slide over to close down on the opposing wing-play and the opposite-wing outside back can slide up the backside for a counter-attack if the ball gets intercepted in the middle of the pitch. Both Enrique and Johnson have the pace/drive to make that happen.

Just a thought, I'm not BR.
 

RedSeven

On the one road
Ad-free Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2010
Messages
5,737
koptician said:
How about putting Gerrard behind Sturridge and dropping Henderson next to Lucas (if coutinho is absent)?

I was going to ask about dominating possession myself. We seem to have completely jettisoned it.
I don't think Stevie going firther upfield is the answer but i do kinda agree with Hendo dropping back.Think this should be his eventual position,understudy,and in time successor, to Lucas.
 

Seamus

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2013
Messages
713
I don't think Henderson has the creativity or technique to play in the final third of the pitch. What he does have is great stamina and physique. If it were a choice of who to play as the deep lying MF then it would either be Henderson or Ilori. If the manager is going to play Henderson then maybe he should have a look at role reversal between Stevie and Jordan.

I don't buy this idea that Gerrard doesn't have the legs or stamina for the ACM role but has for the deep lying CM, that just doesn't make any sense to me.

What does make sense to me is having the more creative of the two players in the more creative position and the work horse sitting deeper back.
 



ahmedshishini

New Member
Joined
Aug 27, 2013
Messages
84
When CMs age they play AM when AMs age they play as strikers example: Totti giving some of his best years later in his career at the striker position 2 and 3 seasons ago. That is exactly whats needed to be done with Gerrard he will blossom there banging in goals and giving assists and his beautiful crosses which seem to be getting better with age, with younger players like Henderson / allen doing the defensive work and tracking back. I have a feeling Rodgers will look into that.
 

redbj

hurry up, July 1st, let's get the show on the road
Joined
Jun 23, 2003
Messages
17,527
zagueiro said:
Gerrard does not babysit Lucas................jeez, open your eyes and watch what actually happens. I'm loathe to turn this into a Lucas v Gerrard post as I rate both of them, but it is plain wrong to say that Gerrard babysits Lucas, and you should get called out on such inaccurate comments.
Ah.

Ignore me quoting your response I wanted to grab your attention and not get lost in a few pages of hysterics.

Firstly, I just want to state one thing, jonjo shelvey has no place at our club, simply not good enough.

That said, I wanted to get your response to a perfect scenario which leads to so much negativity about Lucas.

It's virtually right at the time that we all switched off and decided the game wasn't worth competing for anymore.... I'm happy to declare that part a coincidence.... But Lucas and jonjo get ins bit of s hand bags over who's cock is bigger and kicking the ball out or some such nonsense, trying to make out like a pair of hard men or leaders, that fritters away and then one of them..... The one who's conceded two shit passes to goals and should have no confidence left, the one who's technical ability is about 30% of the others, decides to grab the game by the scruff of the neck and do something about the result.

Its simply not good enough to retort a bout jonjos shockers or lack of discipline, despite that, he had the up and go to try and do something about the game, Lucas never does, never.

If you get my angle?
 

Billy Biskix

TIA Youth Team
Ad-free Member
Joined
Jul 23, 2011
Messages
2,696
Only just seen the game as I've been working and apologies to anybody who's already made the same points.

First, I'd have taken a point against Swansea. They're a good team. They'll do well this season. They passed us to death in the second half.

Second, after Coutinho went off we stopped playing. It was as though we didn't believe we would create or score. After that there was only one team that was going to win and it wasn't us.

Third, I think BR's defensive tactics are a bit unsophisticated at the moment and rely almost entirely on getting as many bodies behind the ball as possible. When we grind it out and get a win it looks gritty, determined and we can congratulate ourselves on winning ugly. When it doesn't succeed it just looks as though we've conceded the initiative and can't raise ourselves again. When he came he talked endlessly about his philosophy and his beliefs but it all revolved around us having possession of the ball. There wasn't much about what we'd do when we don't have the ball, apart from the idea that we'd win it back it again as quickly as possible, which hasn't really happened on a consistent basis at any time since he's been manager.

Fourth, Coutinho is getting roughed up good and proper this season. Predictably so. I hope he can stand up to it because there was a massive drop in quality from him to his replacement, Aspas. Early days for Aspas of course but he looks almost embarrassingly weak at this level. Bearing that in mind, Moses is looking like a very sensible bit of business. He did well in the first half. Faded in the second but obviously not fully match fit yet.

Fifth, it was a good game. One of the best I've seen this season.

Finally, we're top of the league having not played that well so far this season and with Suarez to come back and Sakho to bed in. Still plenty to be optimistic about.
 

ubermick

Willing to drive Lovren to the airport
Admin
Joined
Jan 22, 2007
Messages
11,484
WrongIslander said:
Sorry but I don't agree. In that situation you're taught more to hold the ball by the touch line and whack it against one of them, exactly as you are when you get hemmed in by the corner flag. No coach will ever say, turn round and just keep running till you can pass back to your keeper.
Taught more by who? Tony Pulis?

So let me get this straight. A young full back has possession of the ball just inside his own half. None of his teammates seem to be arsed to make any sort of run to open themselves up for a pass, meanwhile opposing players are moving onto him. His choices then would be:

1 - Carry the ball forward since there isn't a pass on, potentially coughing the ball up and leading to a counterattack
2 - Try and force a pass to a midfielder, likely coughing the ball up and handing the opposition a counterattack
3 - With nothing on, go backwards to the goalkeeper to maintain possession
4 - Er, run to the touchline, hopefully draw someone with you, try and whack it off them in order to maybe get a throw

I dunno where option four would be "taught more", apart from maybe Wimbledon FC back in the 80s. I'm not saying that Wisdom is blameless, there are plenty of sticks to beat him with from that performance, but maintaining possession in a tricky situation (albeit comically) isn't one of them.
 
R

RedRiot

Guest
i_still_miss_fowler said:
I think this statement is an inaccurate assessment.
You might be right, I don't have the causes and dates of his injuries at hand, but I do recall him having persistent injuries (groin or otherwise) every season until last. We still played a significant number of games, and considering he played in most of them, I'd be surprised if his total minutes played weren't as high as in other seasons. Speaks to luck for sure, perhaps better conditioning and training regimens, and perhaps fewer runs bursting forward toward goal? Not sure there's anyway to say for certain what was the root of his great injury record last year.
 



ptt

2020, head of the table.
Joined
Oct 11, 2007
Messages
14,835
I hope the site staff can get the rumour thread back up and running ASAP to distract us all from the impending Lucas argument.
 

lfc.eddie

"¿Plata... O Plomo?"
Joined
Sep 18, 2006
Messages
53,207
rippedshorts said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but we haven't scored in the 2nd half this season (League) have we?
4 games in, there are 34 games to go, surely we will score one in second half throughout.
 

Johnny T.

Still Grumpy....
Joined
Aug 24, 2003
Messages
4,098
ptt said:
I hope the site staff can get the rumour thread back up and running ASAP to distract us all from the impending Lucas argument.
Why? Because you don't think there is an argument to be had??
 

jimmydestiny

In between the lines
Joined
Jul 10, 2007
Messages
2,057
The ending to the game says a lot about our mentality. Arsenal, Chelsea, Spurs, United any City would have been forcing themselves to get back on the front foot rather than clinging on for the draw in the final 5 minutes.

Yes there was a momentum shift after the goal but the sides who finished above us last year have a mentality we still lack.... Regroup and get composed after conceding, work to get the ball back, then get a foothold in the game again and finally become the attacking threat in order to try and win.

We had two chances on the counter. One cut out acrobatically by their central defender whose game escapes me this morning as Stirring broke down the left. The other was Aspas at the death. But in truth that wasn't enough and Swansea looked more likely to win the game than us.



Side note.
Is it too early to say Aspas isn't up to it?

We really need Suarez.

Coutinho yet to assist or score this season. Hasn't been the hero we all hoped for thus far...
 



WrongIslander

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2013
Messages
3,214
ubermick said:
Taught more by who? Tony Pulis?

So let me get this straight. A young full back has possession of the ball just inside his own half. None of his teammates seem to be arsed to make any sort of run to open themselves up for a pass, meanwhile opposing players are moving onto him. His choices then would be:

1 - Carry the ball forward since there isn't a pass on, potentially coughing the ball up and leading to a counterattack
2 - Try and force a pass to a midfielder, likely coughing the ball up and handing the opposition a counterattack
3 - With nothing on, go backwards to the goalkeeper to maintain possession
4 - Er, run to the touchline, hopefully draw someone with you, try and whack it off them in order to maybe get a throw

I dunno where option four would be "taught more", apart from maybe Wimbledon FC back in the 80s. I'm not saying that Wisdom is blameless, there are plenty of sticks to beat him with from that performance, but maintaining possession in a tricky situation (albeit comically) isn't one of them.
Given where Wisdom was when he started option 4 is clearly the most sensible. The fact that you need to say comically should be an indication of how poor a decision it is. Show me any example of where a player has done this in the last season or 10 and you might have a point.

You hold the ball, put your body in front of it and then when there is so much pressure it's practically impossible to do anything else (unless you can get a foul) you try and get a throw in. EVERY wide player is taught this to a man, it's the reason they go so wide so as to make it less likely that they lose possession in a way that would put the team under more pressure as well as obviously opening up the pitch.
 

koptician

We'll go again!
Joined
Jul 11, 2013
Messages
2,796
jimmydestiny said:
The ending to the game says a lot about our mentality. Arsenal, Chelsea, Spurs, United any City would have been forcing themselves to get back on the front foot rather than clinging on for the draw in the final 5 minutes.

Yes there was a momentum shift after the goal but the sides who finished above us last year have a mentality we still lack.... Regroup and get composed after conceding, work to get the ball back, then get a foothold in the game again and finally become the attacking threat in order to try and win.

We had two chances on the counter. One cut out acrobatically by their central defender whose game escapes me this morning as Stirring broke down the left. The other was Aspas at the death. But in truth that wasn't enough and Swansea looked more likely to win the game than us.



Side note.
Is it too early to say Aspas isn't up to it?

We really need Suarez.

Coutinho yet to assist or score this season. Hasn't been the hero we all hoped for thus far...
Second season syndrome isn't it. Other teams are zoning in on him...his mere presence creates space for others. His movement and involvement in the buildups have certainly played a part in our goals. Remember his dummy for Sturridge's goal against Villa. Every time he touches the ball near the danger area there are two defenders on him, if he uses the ball intelligently he can find someone free.
 

i_still_miss_fowler

Open Your Eyes Morty!
Moderator
Joined
Jun 23, 2005
Messages
7,160
We need to remember that Wisdom is a center back playing full back, and on top of that a youngster too.

He is not going to do everything correctly as a full back should, nor should we expect him to. He still has plenty of time to grow and learn, and gain from experience. With Johnson out, Kelly still some way from first team fitness/form, for me he is still the best option.

Talking about Wisdom really deflects from our midfield (which was the real problem second half). We need to ask ourselves how a player like Shelvey (who is not a great footballer) can be so instrumental against us.

Tactics, mentality, fitness or squad balance I dont know. One thing I am sure of is its not down to the quality of our players as man for man we are better than Swansea in almost every area.
 

RedSeven

On the one road
Ad-free Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2010
Messages
5,737
i_still_miss_fowler said:
We need to remember that Wisdom is a center back playing full back, and on top of that a youngster too.

He is not going to do everything correctly as a full back should, nor should we expect him to. He still has plenty of time to grow and learn, and gain from experience. With Johnson out, Kelly still some way from first team fitness/form, for me he is still the best option.

Talking about Wisdom really deflects from our midfield (which was the real problem second half). We need to ask ourselves how a player like Shelvey (who is not a great footballer) can be so instrumental against us.

Tactics, mentality, fitness or squad balance I dont know. One thing I am sure of is its not down to the quality of our players as man for man we are better than Swansea in almost every area.
I don't think it's mentality,fitness,quality or motivation on anyones part.Could it be a lack of experience at this level from BR and some of the players as well as some of the players playing in positions which are not natural to them.
 

SoueysTash

GegenPosting
Joined
Sep 16, 2012
Messages
8,184
i_still_miss_fowler said:
We need to remember that Wisdom is a center back playing full back, and on top of that a youngster too.

He is not going to do everything correctly as a full back should, nor should we expect him to. He still has plenty of time to grow and learn, and gain from experience. With Johnson out, Kelly still some way from first team fitness/form, for me he is still the best option.

Talking about Wisdom really deflects from our midfield (which was the real problem second half). We need to ask ourselves how a player like Shelvey (who is not a great footballer) can be so instrumental against us.

Tactics, mentality, fitness or squad balance I dont know. One thing I am sure of is its not down to the quality of our players as man for man we are better than Swansea in almost every area.
Gerrard and Lucas' mobility, or lack of it, after 60 minutes is the issue in our defence. I can see Stevie being subbed when Allen is back fit, or at least one of Stevie/Lucas.


Hendo could operate there if we had another similar type of player to Henderson...

Said it before, it's amazing how important this lad has become in our system...
 



Verbal80

New Member
Joined
Nov 24, 2012
Messages
138
Expectations are driving some over critical analysis I think.

Sakho is quality and I'm not gonna be too harsh for his first outing. I'm not sure if he can speak English just yet. And Skrtel ain't a leader. So we were bound to be a bit fragile.

I think pressure was the main component in this performance and by know means will it be a reflection on future performances. Granted we fell off in the second half but I will try and be objective. 10 points from 12 is a good return.

Yes, we need to improve, but I think a good win at home against Southampton will be just the tonic we need to up our game.
 

Walter Sobchak

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2013
Messages
2,192
SoueysTash said:
Gerrard and Lucas' mobility, or lack of it, after 60 minutes is the issue in our defence. I can see Stevie being subbed when Allen is back fit, or at least one of Stevie/Lucas.


Hendo could operate there if we had another similar type of player to Henderson...

Said it before, it's amazing how important this lad has become in our system...
The at times lethargic performances by our midfield (bar Hendo) is probably the most important aspect of our game that I hope BR addresses asap.

What goes on on RB is still an issue though. I think a fit Kolo would be much more sensible as an alternative to Glen. Wisdom needs a few more months playing U21 and cup games, while Kolo keeps demonstrating he is boss.
 

Mascot88

Yours for £1m. Need to make room for Dean Saunders
Admin
Joined
May 24, 2007
Messages
21,156
ubermick said:
4 - Er, run to the touchline, hopefully draw someone with you, try and whack it off them in order to maybe get a throw.
Personally, I can't really see why he thinks winning a throw is such a good thing - we seem to be singularly incapable to retaining the ball from one.