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Post match thread: Swansea 2 Liverpool 2

Mascot88

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WrongIslander said:
Given where Wisdom was when he started option 4 is clearly the most sensible. The fact that you need to say comically should be an indication of how poor a decision it is. Show me any example of where a player has done this in the last season or 10 and you might have a point.

You hold the ball, put your body in front of it and then when there is so much pressure it's practically impossible to do anything else (unless you can get a foul) you try and get a throw in. EVERY wide player is taught this to a man, it's the reason they go so wide so as to make it less likely that they lose possession in a way that would put the team under more pressure as well as obviously opening up the pitch.
Given Wisdom is a twenty year old player, in a position he is not comfortable, don't you think that one of the senior players should have been doing more to provide him with a passing option? You seem to be willing to castigate Wisdom for not doing that much wrong, while giving his senior colleagues, who were happy to watch him do so, a free pass. I think you have your priorities a bit wrong.

While you're going on about Wisdom's 'poor error' - an 'error' that resulted in him actually getting it back to the keeper, consider Gerrard turning his back on Shelvey and getting himself lost when the Jonjo did that airshot. That cost us a goal.
 


RedSeven

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koptician said:
What. The. Hell. Was. That!!!

Long ball at its purest?
It's called Total Football.A concept where any player can play in any position.In this case,1 keeper, 2 mids and 8 forwards
 

koptician

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RedSeven said:
It's called Total Football.A concept where any player can play in any position.In this case,1 keeper, 2 mids and 8 forwards
I'm wondering why Pulis never tried this
 

huwzie

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We are not going to win every game. We didnt play well at all in the second half and Coutinho going off lost us our momentum and we were on the back foot.

Credit has got to go to Swansea who took the game to us and took possession of the ball. In the end we settled for a draw.

In past seasons we would have completely folded and lost. Theres a big lesson to be learned from the players especially the new boys coming in. We must keep the ball and when we lose it we must win it back as soon as possible.

This is one thing we struggled with against Swansea and we looked headless. As soon as we got the ball we forgot what to do with it and as we lost composure Swansea gained it.

As the season progresses and the new players start to gain in confidence then i feel we will be much stronger for it.
 



ptt

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Johnny T. said:
Why? Because you don't think there is an argument to be had??
He was bad, then he was good now he's a bit off. The "how good a player is he" thread isn't here.
 

lfc.eddie

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ptt said:
He was bad, then he was good now he's a bit off. The "how good a player is he" thread isn't here.
So why bring it up in the first place knowing the shit he will stir?

As for both Gerrard and Lucas mobility, I don't think that is the biggest issue if our players don't keep losing possession. Composed possession and better distribution will negate that mobility issue when defending. I said in the match thread Mignolet really need to look into his distribution skills, improve it more. Aspas needs to be able to hold the ball up more and the rest of the team needs to move in sync. When the ball gets punt from the keeper, often sees Aspas lost it, or Sturridge lost it. Then they mount the counter attack. Every time he rolled the ball to a defender, our other players stood still, and they close the gap far too quickly and put pressure back to our defence. Fullbacks stagnant, forward and wingers not moving, midfield playing at times too far and when they should spread it out they failed to find their passing target.

I guess it's got to be lack of the go to guy the control the tempo of the game that suits us. When we looked to slow the game down, we retreat deeper and deeper. As if that is the only way to slow a game down to our tempo. That's what I see our problem is, coupled with makeshift defence, this is what we get, not so great result.
 

Bobbinho

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redbj said:
Ah.

Ignore me quoting your response I wanted to grab your attention and not get lost in a few pages of hysterics.

Firstly, I just want to state one thing, jonjo shelvey has no place at our club, simply not good enough.

That said, I wanted to get your response to a perfect scenario which leads to so much negativity about Lucas.

It's virtually right at the time that we all switched off and decided the game wasn't worth competing for anymore.... I'm happy to declare that part a coincidence.... But Lucas and jonjo get ins bit of s hand bags over who's cock is bigger and kicking the ball out or some such nonsense, trying to make out like a pair of hard men or leaders, that fritters away and then one of them..... The one who's conceded two shit passes to goals and should have no confidence left, the one who's technical ability is about 30% of the others, decides to grab the game by the scruff of the neck and do something about the result.

Its simply not good enough to retort a bout jonjos shockers or lack of discipline, despite that, he had the up and go to try and do something about the game, Lucas never does, never.

If you get my angle?
My time to bite... ;)

This thought crossed my mind also, who would i rather have in CM, Jonjo or Lucas, it was quite clear who got the upper hand, for me it's all about impact......we can talk stat's, positional awareness/discipline, pass completion....you name it BUT the big issue with us is player's being able to make that type of impact whereby a the impetus of play can be reversed by sheer force of play aka Gerrard who in fairness cannot be expected to keep pulling out of the hat performances of that standard week in week out at his age.

This could be the absolute crux of the problem to our lack of whatever it is that see's us roll over & fold whenever we are under pressure, it IS a problem, you do need senior players to get stuck in & fight, not just 1 or maybe two of them but all of them....esp when you have young players who are a little green & lacking in experience/confidence.

The problem is compounded when "we" as a fanbase protect those players "we" like....stifling criticism & giving OTT praise when said player actually puts in a decent shift, like just actually does the job they are paid well enough to do EVERY game.....

Simply put we have too many passenger's or player's not really doing their job consistently.... & completely getting away with it.

For instance im sure if we had a vote as to who should be dropped between Gerrard or Lucas, to try & improve our flagging midfield a marginal majority would vote Gerrard to be dropped in favour of Lucas.....

It seems that a popular player at this Club can do no wrong.....& Lucas is a very popular player & he knows it. What i like about BR is that i think he is trying his upmost to strengthen all the previously weak area's of the team that have let us down once too often....., preventing us from progressing, just by bringing in Sturriddge Mignolet & Toure we have seen a dramatic change in fortunes, i mean top of the fecking league after 4 games instead of languishing in the doldrums mid to lower table...

Moses providing yet more attacking prowess....Sakho, stronger depth at the back, Illori perhaps a defensive mid in the making....and/or perhaps back up for the defence,flanks. You can see what he (BR) is trying to do, im certain that he is not happy with how we are playing overall, how could he be? Its glaringly obvious that we need more fight from this team & players who are not up to it & im talking about our more senior players should be phased out, ruthlessly......if need be.

Don't want us to be losing even more young promising talent because we have players who have carved out a career for themselves at the Club but by & large are not contributing to our progress....

Rant over. B)
 



zagueiro

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redbj said:
Ah.

Ignore me quoting your response I wanted to grab your attention and not get lost in a few pages of hysterics.

Firstly, I just want to state one thing, jonjo shelvey has no place at our club, simply not good enough.

That said, I wanted to get your response to a perfect scenario which leads to so much negativity about Lucas.

It's virtually right at the time that we all switched off and decided the game wasn't worth competing for anymore.... I'm happy to declare that part a coincidence.... But Lucas and jonjo get ins bit of s hand bags over who's cock is bigger and kicking the ball out or some such nonsense, trying to make out like a pair of hard men or leaders, that fritters away and then one of them..... The one who's conceded two shit passes to goals and should have no confidence left, the one who's technical ability is about 30% of the others, decides to grab the game by the scruff of the neck and do something about the result.

Its simply not good enough to retort a bout jonjos shockers or lack of discipline, despite that, he had the up and go to try and do something about the game, Lucas never does, never.

If you get my angle?
I don't, I have no idea what you are piffling on about???

Did Jonjo do something about the game, or did a combination of Sakho coming out of posiiton, Wisdom getting wrong side and Gerrard not tracking his runner mean we let in a sloppy goal. I'm with the latter myself. Looking at it from your point of view it seems it would be better if Lucas had gifted Swansea 2 goals because at least he'd have "...done something about the game". Personally I'd rather have a consistant, steady, reliable defendive midfielder who never does shite back passes, rarely gives the ball away and has a high pass completion, than someone who does something with the game, and it seems our manager agees with me!
 

zagueiro

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JoebloggsLFC said:
My time to bite... ;)

This thought crossed my mind also, who would i rather have in CM, Jonjo or Lucas, it was quite clear who got the upper hand, for me it's all about impact......we can talk stat's, positional awareness/discipline, pass completion....you name it BUT the big issue with us is player's being able to make that type of impact whereby a the impetus of play can be reversed by sheer force of play aka Gerrard who in fairness cannot be expected to keep pulling out of the hat performances of that standard week in week out at his age.

This could be the absolute crux of the problem to our lack of whatever it is that see's us roll over & fold whenever we are under pressure, it IS a problem, you do need senior players to get stuck in & fight, not just 1 or maybe two of them but all of them....esp when you have young players who are a little green & lacking in experience/confidence.

The problem is compounded when "we" as a fanbase protect those players "we" like....stifling criticism & giving OTT praise when said player actually puts in a decent shift, like just actually does the job they are paid well enough to do EVERY game.....

Simply put we have too many passenger's or player's not really doing their job consistently.... & completely getting away with it.

For instance im sure if we had a vote as to who should be dropped between Gerrard or Lucas, to try & improve our flagging midfield a marginal majority would vote Gerrard to be dropped in favour of Lucas.....

It seems that a popular player at this Club can do no wrong.....& Lucas is a very popular player & he knows it. What i like about BR is that i think he is trying his upmost to strengthen all the previously weak area's of the team that have let us down once too often....., preventing us from progressing, just by bringing in Sturriddge Mignolet & Toure we have seen a dramatic change in fortunes, i mean top of the fecking league after 4 games instead of languishing in the doldrums mid to lower table...

Moses providing yet more attacking prowess....Sakho, stronger depth at the back, Illori perhaps a defensive mid in the making....and/or perhaps back up for the defence,flanks. You can see what he (BR) is trying to do, im certain that he is not happy with how we are playing overall, how could he be? Its glaringly obvious that we need more fight from this team & players who are not up to it & im talking about our more senior players should be phased out, ruthlessly......if need be.

Don't want us to be losing even more young promising talent because we have players who have carved out a career for themselves at the Club but by & large are not contributing to our progress....

Rant over. B)
Instead of looking at players as fan favourites or club legends, how about trying to objectively look at players performance based on the job description of the role they are playing. For example Aspas needs to hold up the ball, score goals, stretch the play or harry the defence. To judge him you should ask if he fulfilled the key tasks in his role. It would be fair to say that against Swansea he didn't. He didn't score, and he was terrible at holding the ball up. So it's fair to critique him,

The same should be applied to Gerrard and Lucas and the role they are expected to play in the system. Did Lucas win the ball? Intercept? track runners? harry and chase down the opposition? distribute the ball calmly and accurately to his team mates? It's irrelevant whether he did what you want him to do, or what Jonjo did for Swansea..............that's not what Rodgers wants from Lucas, otherwise he'd have kept Jonjo and sold Lucas to Swansea for 5 million.

Against Swansea Gerrard failed to fulfil as much of his job descrition as Lucas. he made less tackles, was culpable in part in both goals, and didn't pass as accurately. Wisdom also failed miserably to fulfil his job description, which is primarily to defend.

While undoubtedly supporters have favourite players based on character, work rate, personality etc, but that is not the only reason people rate some players over others. Some people just want different things from their players and can see how their role and the way they play it fits into the structure of the team. Jonjo didn't fit, and hes' gone.....................
 

zagueiro

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i_still_miss_fowler said:
We need to remember that Wisdom is a center back playing full back, and on top of that a youngster too.

He is not going to do everything correctly as a full back should, nor should we expect him to. He still has plenty of time to grow and learn, and gain from experience. With Johnson out, Kelly still some way from first team fitness/form, for me he is still the best option.

Talking about Wisdom really deflects from our midfield (which was the real problem second half). We need to ask ourselves how a player like Shelvey (who is not a great footballer) can be so instrumental against us.

Tactics, mentality, fitness or squad balance I dont know. One thing I am sure of is its not down to the quality of our players as man for man we are better than Swansea in almost every area.
There should be a conversation to be had about Wisdom though because, young or not, he played very poorly. His passing was awful, and so was his defending. He was partly culpable for the second goal. He was probably the poorest player on the night and it affected the team. With the changes in defence and attack the team just looked exactly like they were, a team with too many new people in it. Having said that Swansea away is no easy place to go. We might look back on this as a good point later in the season.

And my tuppence worth on that bizarre charge towards his own goal is this. When Wisdom receives the ball, Gerrard was free toward the centre of the pitch. Wisdom didn't have the confidence to play the pass and the space was soon gone, and he soon found that the closer he got ot his goal the less options he had - unsurprising as his team mates were all heading the other way. Had Wisdom seem Gerrard and executed the pass this situation would have been avoided. Wisdom generally has very little confidence on the ball and always plays the safe pass. That's OK, but Rodgers system requires players with balls on the ball (so to speak) players who will back themselves in possession even under pressure. Not sure where this leaves Wisdom as he obviously doesn't have this yet. Will he ever have it is the real question tho.
 

lfc.eddie

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zagueiro said:
There should be a conversation to be had about Wisdom though because, young or not, he played very poorly. His passing was awful, and so was his defending. He was partly culpable for the second goal. He was probably the poorest player on the night and it affected the team. With the changes in defence and attack the team just looked exactly like they were, a team with too many new people in it. Having said that Swansea away is no easy place to go. We might look back on this as a good point later in the season.
Not a fullback, still young as a defender and had a bad day at work. He was rock solid last season and had quite an impact to the team as a stand in when two right backs were not available. So I would not put too much heat on him though.

As for his confidence, your favourite Lucss weren't exactly glowing with it in his first couple of seasons too.
 

Bobbinho

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@Zagueiro - Again, it is fine to critique player's or praise player's depending on how one see's the game....& how one defines the term PROGRESS.....

We are definitely making progress, BUT our shortcomings are clear as day....many fan's are now questioning this tendency to go awol in the second half, it is a problem & my opinion & many other's... is that our midfield is an area of weakness.....

Gerrard has been the better player this season & last......

You keep talking pass completion & i will keep talking about player impact.....fight, guts, determination to never let the opposition back into a game esp when it is all but won....

Your constant defending of Lucas is tiresome, we all have players we like & when they get criticism whether warranted or not sometimes you just have to let it slide......pointless constantly pulling everyone up & calling everyone out when YOU don't think its warranted, Jesus Christ the amount of post's i ignore (yours included..) simply because i don't have the time nor inclination to bore everyone..... your true colour's came out when i put Illori into the DM position in the team i would like to see at some point, why? because i don't think Lucas has helped us progress.....simple as that!

Mignolet Toure Sturridge Gerrard Henderson & latterly Skrtel, have been our stand out performers this season, granted Gerrard did not have his best game but your man Lucas only got 1 vote in the MOTM......1 more vote than Gerrard....so, he really wasn't that good either was he.....

It certainly was not a memorable game for him was it?

All i am trying to do is work out how we can improve our midfield so as to avoid this horrible "tendency" to allow the opposition back into a game when we have done enough to win it, you on the other hand just seem intent on defending your popular player from virtually ANY criticism but offering very little in terms of constructive debate re "our" issue's....
 



Mascot88

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You have two players in central midfield who are struggling to last ninety, lacking in mobility, and quite slow getting about the pitch.

Does we have to pick sides between the two?

In Lucas' case he is recovering from a serious injury, still looks sluggish and lacking in match fitness. Gerrard is getting on and he can't be the dynamic force that he was. Which one to drop?

How about neither - they are both great players, albeit struggling for different reasons, and we have to use them while finding a way to minimise their weaknesses. How about this



Get Henderson into Central Midfield, he is as good in the tackle of have the game intelligence of Lucas, but he can harry the fuck out of any side and complement Lucas with sheer energy. Move Gerrard up the pitch and reduce his expectation to run around tackling - not an out and out AM, but not sitting deep expecting to be the teams engine.
 

Bobbinho

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@Mascot - That's a pretty good shout tbh, not sure it would work in terms of irradicating the problem per se but it might well help at least, we do need to do something...as it's been an issue for too long now & any progress that we have made could easily be undone by a few more performances like the other night.

When Suarez comes back BR will have to shuffle the pack a bit anyway...so perhaps we might see a change in personnel in the midfield with Hendo looking likely to keep a first team place he might actually consider dropping him back & pushing Gerrard forward esp as Coutinho will not feature for a while.
 

Quagmire81

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I think we have a very serious case of man-crush from one poster on a certain player, I don't think I need to name any names :D

We should have a warning for all new posters that join up about it. It could save a few monitors and keyboards in the future.
 

i_still_miss_fowler

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I dont disagree Zagueiro every player should be critised if they have a poor game.

Having said that I feel the focus upon him, neglects the bigger problem of our team performance. When he got subbed it was not as if our performance improved. To me Swansea looked just as likely to score (in fact I thought they looked more threatening).

Ultimately too much pressure was placed upon our defense as our midfield where unable to keep hold of the ball (and when Mignolet kicked the the ball forward, it came straight back)

Here is the second goal in still images



What I really dislike about this is

1/ Lack of pressing
2/ Marking of space rather than man
3/ Midfield too deep (and easily bypassed)
3/ Positioning of midfield players poor
4/ Sahko steping out (leaving huge hole in center)
5/ Far to much time for opposition to pick out a ball.

This is the bigger issue, and is illustrative of the problems during the second half. Defending too deep, not pressing and getting dragged out of position.

Tired legs, mobility, Lucas on a yellow card, tactics, getting to know each other all contribute to differing extents to me. But I am sure every one has their own theories why.

Focusing on Wisdom, is really a side issue to what should be the main topic of debate.
 

WrongIslander

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Mascot88 said:
Given Wisdom is a twenty year old player, in a position he is not comfortable, don't you think that one of the senior players should have been doing more to provide him with a passing option? You seem to be willing to castigate Wisdom for not doing that much wrong, while giving his senior colleagues, who were happy to watch him do so, a free pass. I think you have your priorities a bit wrong.

While you're going on about Wisdom's 'poor error' - an 'error' that resulted in him actually getting it back to the keeper, consider Gerrard turning his back on Shelvey and getting himself lost when the Jonjo did that airshot. That cost us a goal.
I've already mentioned that earlier, this was just about that incident in isolation. The lad makes just as poor decisions at centre back for what it's worth. I hope he improves but at the moment nothing about him indicates he's good enough for our team as we move forward and he's no more than a "last resort" at the moment.
 



SoueysTash

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Sakho stepping it isn't an issue providing Skrtel moves over slightly to cover...it's working knowledge of each of the CBs game which is why I think it'll be difficult for Sakho to break into the team without being labelled a liability...when in reality, he's only a liability when no one else knows what he's doing
 

slufsar

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I've been moaning about our poor midfield for so long now and I'm finally glad to see most other fans realising how poor it is. Our midfield lacks so much. I can hardly believe how often it gets run over by distinctly average midfields.

No mobility, no energy, no defensive or tactical discipline, erratic passing and creativity and poor positioning. This doesnt include Henderson. He's carrying that midfield, like he did at the end of last season. Yet we see people who wants him dropped, just because he's not the most exciting player. Tell you what, he's our most important players, because midfield is the most important area on the pitch and without it everything falls collapses.
 
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RedRiot

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If anyone would honestly rather have a player who hands the opposition goals just because he had impact further forward than any of our MFs you might be watching the wrong football. The Championship is full of Jonjo Shelveys. He's not smart enough to significantly improve on where he is. He's all physical talent and no brains. The evening was at best a wash for him. Probably worse. Had he done that in our colors he would have been crucified and rightly so.
 

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SoueysTash said:
Sakho stepping it isn't an issue providing Skrtel moves over slightly to cover...it's working knowledge of each of the CBs game which is why I think it'll be difficult for Sakho to break into the team without being labelled a liability...when in reality, he's only a liability when no one else knows what he's doing
Absolutely correct and I'm confused why this isn't brought up more. Really poor pairing from an experience standpoint which is probably the most important aspect to a good defensive line. When we had Agger we didn't allow as many chances because the 4 central players (Toure, Agger, Lucas and Gerrard) knew where each other would be and how to organize. Swap two of those with two who haven't played together and you can see the results.

I'll be more concerned if this is a trend but off 3 clean sheets (against decent opposition in Villa and United) to start its too soon to push the panic button on our defense.
 

i_still_miss_fowler

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SoueysTash said:
Sakho stepping it isn't an issue providing Skrtel moves over slightly to cover...it's working knowledge of each of the CBs game which is why I think it'll be difficult for Sakho to break into the team without being labelled a liability...when in reality, he's only a liability when no one else knows what he's doing
Disagree, Sakho stepping out was a problem (but for me was a consequence of the midfield). Sakho got too far forward, and almost instantly it became 4 on 3 with a simple ball over the top.

Because midfield were not pressing those players in front of them, (or taking notice of those behind), it left Skrtel in an impossible situation. Had he been on the same lines and moved centrally (covering Sakho), it would have left the man he was covering free, and I doubt would have made a huge different to the goal.

Watch Shelvey's run, where he starts and where he finishes (Lucas and Gerrard watch him run past !). Without going through Shelvey could Skrtel have won that header (even if he had been more central) ?.
 



SoueysTash

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We disagree then...but, we'll see once Sakho has had more training/games - I imagine him stepping out won't be such a problem. Looking forward to finding out...Still think we'll go three at the back before the end of the season
 

i_still_miss_fowler

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My main issue is not with Sakho, I think he was put in a position where he needed to step out (but came out too far)

What really annoys me (and is criminal) is how no one at all picked up Shelvey. He made an obvious run forward (from the center circle !) , and Lucas and Gerrard just watched him (didnt even attempt to cover) .
 

Mascot88

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I think stepping out of defence and claiming balls - as well as being a beast in the air - is what we bought Sakho for.

I have no problem with this - I think it's something the team needs. The problem on Monday was that Sakho was well of the pace, and completely unprepared for the speed of the premier league. He'll sort that out, I'm sure.
 

SoueysTash

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i_still_miss_fowler said:
My main issue is not with Sakho, I think he was put in a position where he needed to step out (but came out too far)

What really annoys me (and is criminal) is how no one at all picked up Shelvey. He made an obvious run forward (from the center circle !) , and Lucas and Gerrard just watched him (didnt even attempt to cover) .
Thing is Gerrard played a blinder against Villa...Lucas not so much in my opinion, given the choice (if we had another deep midfielder to play) I'd get rid of Lucas on current form and subGerrard off for him later in the game, would give us more of a chance later in the game. Allen coming back in will be interesting

If Henderson wasn't so important further up the field, he'd be ideal playing next Gerrard...
 

Mascot88

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i_still_miss_fowler said:
My main issue is not with Sakho, I think he was put in a position where he needed to step out (but came out too far)

What really annoys me (and is criminal) is how no one at all picked up Shelvey. He made an obvious run forward (from the center circle !) , and Lucas and Gerrard just watched him (didnt even attempt to cover) .
I think thats because by that point in the game they're both fucked. At 60min Rodgers needs to replace one of them (my preference would be Gerrard, not because Lucas is better - because we can less afford to lose Stevie to a fatigue induced injury) or Chang the shape to win back control of the midfield.

It's baffling because its as plain as the nose on your face that Lucas and Gerrard have not got 90minutes in them