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Post match thread: Swansea 2 Liverpool 2

SoueysTash

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Mascot88 said:
It's baffling because its as plain as the nose on your face that Lucas and Gerrard have not got 90minutes in them
Both did well against Villa for the full 90 though...
 


SirBillShankly

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Interesting that no-one is considering or talking about Allen, i wonder if he is an option?
 

SoueysTash

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SirBillShankly said:
Interesting that no-one is considering or talking about Allen, i wonder if he is an option?
Thing that made me not mention him further back is due to BR playing him further up the field for the entire pre-season. Wonder if he'd stick Hendo back there instead? We could do with another couple of Hendersons...
 

Mascot88

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SoueysTash said:
Both did well against Villa for the full 90 though...
The pattern was still the same though, mate - retreat in to backs to the wall mode in the second half. All five games this season.

Just my speculation, but it's almost like the plan is Right, we know we've got 50-60 mins before Lucas and Gerrard tire, so we come out like a fucking tornado and get a lead. Then, from about 60 and accepting we're going to lose control of the midfield, we sit back at let them try and break us down...


PS. Allen's injured, no?
 



SirBillShankly

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SoueysTash said:
Thing that made me not mention him further back is due to BR playing him further up the field for the entire pre-season. Wonder if he'd stick Hendo back there instead? We could do with another couple of Hendersons...
I think Allen needs to play a bigger role,but not pushed up too far, he looked sharp, really good against, i think, Notts County. Play him further back and drop Henderson back also. We need to do something cos it's clear as day that Lucas alongside the captain doesn't work effectively for 90 minutes. i imagine Gerrard was knackered after the England games. Wish he would just put us first and retire. Hopefully it's something that will get addressed in the January window. Why didn't we sign Strootman?? He would have been fantastic for us.
 

Bobbinho

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i_still_miss_fowler said:
My main issue is not with Sakho, I think he was put in a position where he needed to step out (but came out too far)

What really annoys me (and is criminal) is how no one at all picked up Shelvey. He made an obvious run forward (from the center circle !) , and Lucas and Gerrard just watched him (didnt even attempt to cover) .
This is exactly my point, the partnership/understanding between Gerrard & Lucas just seems to break down completely at times, might work for the odd game but generally it's all too often found lacking, i really don't remember a prolonged period of time where it has worked at all, Lucas leaves it for Gerrard, Gerrard leaves it for Lucas & wham bam thankyou mam we end up conceding a soft goal.....& are suddenly under a lot of pressure where we shouldn't be.

They don't seem to compliment each other, don't seem to cover for each other, people complaining that Gerrard has been dropping too deep, but i think we need to look at our position in the league & honestly ask ourselves if we would be where we are with Gerrard leaving Lucas to shield the back four.....

I really don't think we would be.
 

SirBillShankly

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JoebloggsLFC said:
This is exactly my point, the partnership/understanding between Gerrard & Lucas just seems to break down completely at times, might work for the odd game but generally it's all too often found lacking, i really don't remember a prolonged period of time where it has worked at all, Lucas leaves it for Gerrard, Gerrard leaves it for Lucas & wham bam thankyou mam we end up conceding a soft goal.....& are suddenly under a lot of pressure where we shouldn't be.

They don't seem to compliment each other, don't seem to cover for each other, people complaining that Gerrard has been dropping too deep, but i think we need to look at our position in the league & honestly ask ourselves if we would be where we are with Gerrard leaving Lucas to shield the back four.....

I really don't think we would be.
Ummm.....maybe in our first three games, when we didn't concede?
 

Bobbinho

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SirBillShankly said:
Ummm.....maybe in our first three games, when we didn't concede?
Clever answer, but it doesn't address the point that is being discussed here, which is that in the games we didn't concede, we piled pressure on ourselves in the second half....you know the same kind of pressure where if Manu had been on better form would have punished us, the same kind of pressure that led to us nearly conceding against Villa, we have an uncanny knack of inviting pressure esp in the second half.....

Without Mignolet saving our blushes Toure shoring up the defence & Sturridge regularly scoring we'd be way down the table, simple as

Hamann Gerrard was a prolonged period of time, it worked, Xabi Gerrard was a prolonged period of time, it worked as well, Lucas Gerrard has had what 4/5 season's....? Can you honestly say that it has ever worked for a prolonged period of time?
 

SF Red

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i_still_miss_fowler said:
My main issue is not with Sakho, I think he was put in a position where he needed to step out (but came out too far)

What really annoys me (and is criminal) is how no one at all picked up Shelvey. He made an obvious run forward (from the center circle !) , and Lucas and Gerrard just watched him (didnt even attempt to cover) .
Completely agree. If Shelvey makes that run and Bony (who Lucas/Gerrard didn't see step up until late) doesn't step up, there is Michu, Shelvey, and Bony with only Skrtel and Sakho defending behind the CMs as far as Lucas/Gerrard know - Wisdom did come over, but they have no way of knowing that and Michu is always going to have the inside position on Wisdom in that case. Lucas even goes out to take deGuzman who Aspas should really be pressing. There were so many mistakes on that, not just one.

Sakho did the right thing IMO. Lucas moving over to take Bony would actually have been ideal, but there is probably a huge communication issue there.

Some of those mistakes are correctable, except for Gerrard/Lucas not tracking the runner - they should know better IMO.
 



redbj

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RedRiot said:
If anyone would honestly rather have a player who hands the opposition goals just because he had impact further forward than any of our MFs you might be watching the wrong football. The Championship is full of Jonjo Shelveys. He's not smart enough to significantly improve on where he is. He's all physical talent and no brains. The evening was at best a wash for him. Probably worse. Had he done that in our colors he would have been crucified and rightly so.
That's the problem with just skimming through a post and the responding.

I've done it many a time myself, it's an easy trap to fall into, but it really does detract from the conversation at hand.

@ zagerio, I apologise for not being able to explain myself better, I think a handful of other people understood it, I suppose it's more an issue of wanting to or not wanting to understand it.

Anyhoo, whatever your reading of the situation, I think we can all agree, the second half capitulations are certainly involving the middle of the park not being able to dominate as they do in the first half.
 

football.tiger

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i_still_miss_fowler said:
Disagree, Sakho stepping out was a problem (but for me was a consequence of the midfield). Sakho got too far forward, and almost instantly it became 4 on 3 with a simple ball over the top.

Because midfield were not pressing those players in front of them, (or taking notice of those behind), it left Skrtel in an impossible situation. Had he been on the same lines and moved centrally (covering Sakho), it would have left the man he was covering free, and I doubt would have made a huge different to the goal.

Watch Shelvey's run, where he starts and where he finishes (Lucas and Gerrard watch him run past !). Without going through Shelvey could Skrtel have won that header (even if he had been more central) ?.
Skrtel should have plugged the hole, with Wisdom dropping into Skrtel's previous area... I would say he would have won the header had he moved across - he wasn't too far off even with his poor positioning - you can see him caught in no-man's land and getting neither close to Shelvey and then Michu. I can't see Shelvey winning that header had Skrtel been better positioned.
 
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RedRiot

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Mascot88 said:
You have two players in central midfield who are struggling to last ninety, lacking in mobility, and quite slow getting about the pitch.

Does we have to pick sides between the two?

In Lucas' case he is recovering from a serious injury, still looks sluggish and lacking in match fitness. Gerrard is getting on and he can't be the dynamic force that he was. Which one to drop?

How about neither - they are both great players, albeit struggling for different reasons, and we have to use them while finding a way to minimise their weaknesses. How about this



Get Henderson into Central Midfield, he is as good in the tackle of have the game intelligence of Lucas, but he can harry the fuck out of any side and complement Lucas with sheer energy. Move Gerrard up the pitch and reduce his expectation to run around tackling - not an out and out AM, but not sitting deep expecting to be the teams engine.
Think it makes more sense to leave Gerrard deep and put Henderson forward. If Allen was fit, I'd also drop Gerrard and pair Allen with Lucas, as I think the three of them (Allen, Lucas, Henderson) are all fairly mobile. Lucas was not immobile last night. IF we're saying the problem is mobility (I don't necessarily think it is) then Gerrard is the one most in need of dropping. He's the least mobile at this point. I think he offers a lot more when he's on song than Allen might, but I think Lucas and Allen offer a lot more balance in midfield. It won't happen, but I think it would improve things.
 
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RedRiot

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redbj said:
That's the problem with just skimming through a post and the responding.

I've done it many a time myself, it's an easy trap to fall into, but it really does detract from the conversation at hand.
I read the full posts from you and from JoeBloggs, and while yours was more speculative (you openly admit that Jonjo doesn't belong at the club) you do see Jonjo's initiative to impact the game as a positive, something Lucas doesn't have, which seems to ignore the fact that Jonjo was playing a significantly different role than Lucas has played here for the last 6 years. Why doesn't Lucas go up to play for a knockdown to an on-rushing forward? Because then he'd be ridiculously out-of-position and we'd be screwed on the counter. It's not really a sensical argument, you know? What Jonjo did to "impact the game" was something that a player who has license to roam (and no tactical discipline) can do. We saw everything good and bad about a player like that last night. A young Gerrard missing a brain.

JoeBloggs seemed to more strongly suggest that he'd prefer Shelvey over Lucas, hence my post. If he didn't mean that, that's fair. But overall, while people continually say we won't win anything with a player like Lucas in the side, the truth is, we won't win anything without a player effectively playing Lucas's role in the side in modern football. We could load the side up with Young Gerrard's with a lot of intelligence and we would still struggle. We may have looked like shit in the second half of most of our matches this season, but one of the major reasons we're top right now is because of our midfield duo. Not because of Henderson, Sturridge or Coutinho. Because of Gerrard and Lucas. When the team loses its shape, yes, it may be down to them to some extent, but we clearly drop off as a team and stop pressing (as if someone had instructed us to) and that's the real difference. It's not just our two central midfielders who aren't maintaining possession, it's everybody. From Wisdom to Skrtel to Sturridge to Aspas, throughout the team yesterday in the second half, we didn't take care of the ball and we didn't press to win it back when we lost it. Search me why those instructions are being given, but it's not the failing of one part of XI, it's a designed failing. Whatever Rodgers is trying to achieve (and by all means, in terms of results, he's mostly done it) it's not working in the way that it should - with us actually confidently seeing off opponents. The problems with our second half displays are numerous, but they have nothing to do with individual players taking on responsibility to change the game. It's all about the entire changing its focus, intensity and approach. It's a tactical decision that seems like it's bound to failure long-term.
 

alphakilo

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RedRiot said:
Think it makes more sense to leave Gerrard deep and put Henderson forward. If Allen was fit, I'd also drop Gerrard and pair Allen with Lucas, as I think the three of them (Allen, Lucas, Henderson) are all fairly mobile. Lucas was not immobile last night. IF we're saying the problem is mobility (I don't necessarily think it is) then Gerrard is the one most in need of dropping. He's the least mobile at this point. I think he offers a lot more when he's on song than Allen might, but I think Lucas and Allen offer a lot more balance in midfield. It won't happen, but I think it would improve things.
I understand what you're trying to say, and I also think JoeBloggs falls into his own trap of condemning subjectivity, but certain posters are going to jump all over your suggestion that you would "drop Gerrard". That phrase alone will throw logic and context out the window and land you in amongst the "clueless" or "Sky/Xbox generation".

Seriously, I get that you are merely hypothesizing and sounding out possibilities, but it might be helpful in this case to bolster your argument with a couple more possibilities. For example, I think a Gerrard/Henderson pairing would probably work just as well as Lucas/Allen. The former would facilitate quick, incisive buildup play using Gerrard's mastery of the killer pass and Henderson's work rate to create or close down spaces. The latter would probably be better geared towards slow, patient buildup with the ball, taking advantage of Allen/Lucas' ball retention. The front four would then line up differently depending on what the game plan is.

The salient point, then, is realizing that each of the midfielders does have a particular skill set, and the interesting discussion is not who is the best/worst, or who should/should not be a regular fixture, but how to best take advantage of a combination of their skill sets to beat a particular opponent.

I hope that made sense, and I apologize if I come across as preachy. That was not the intention.
 



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RedRiot

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alphakilo said:
I understand what you're trying to say, and I also think JoeBloggs falls into his own trap of condemning subjectivity, but certain posters are going to jump all over your suggestion that you would "drop Gerrard". That phrase alone will throw logic and context out the window and land you in amongst the "clueless" or "Sky/Xbox generation".
 
Seriously, I get that you are merely hypothesizing and sounding out possibilities, but it might be helpful in this case to bolster your argument with a couple more possibilities. For example, I think a Gerrard/Henderson pairing would probably work just as well as Lucas/Allen. The former would facilitate quick, incisive buildup play using Gerrard's mastery of the killer pass and Henderson's work rate to create or close down spaces. The latter would probably be better geared towards slow, patient buildup with the ball, taking advantage of Allen/Lucas' ball retention. The front four would then line up differently depending on what the game plan is.
 
The salient point, then, is realizing that each of the midfielders does have a particular skill set, and the interesting discussion is not who is the best/worst, or who should/should not be a regular fixture, but how to best take advantage of a combination of their skill sets to beat a particular opponent.
 
I hope that made sense, and I apologize if I come across as preachy. That was not the intention.
No, I get what you're saying. I think I fleshed it out more fully in the squad discussion thread. I personally wouldn't pair Henderson and Gerrard, but I did mention that I think Henderson shouldn't be ruled out as an option next to Allen or Lucas. I'm not sure Jordan has the ability to play the more defensively active of the two sitting CMs with Gerrard next to him, but I do think he could be paired with the other two. I should say, I think Lucas could be dropped too in favor of Allen, but really not with Gerrard simply because on the evidence available, that pairing didn't work out that well. It might this time around, though. I think we need to think more about mixing up our midfield for purpose than we have, although I can understand why Rodgers is reluctant to remove our two incredibly experienced CMs in favor of the other two, or even Alberto. Like others have said, we could probably use at least one more midfielder in to really offer more competition that we could be confident in.
 

redbj

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I have seen many a deep lying midfielder get his foot on the ball and control the game, at many different levels, at the pinicke you have pirlo, but he doesnt need to raise his game to those levels.I think your missing my point.

Lucas didn't have to challenge for a header in the box to effect the game, infancy it was a damn site easier for him and Gerard to both get control of that game than it was for shelvey to.

Ill admit I'm having a cunt of a time explaining it, but if Lucas isn't asked to get forward, nor asked to protect the back four ( resulting in them leaving spaces like the paddock shelvey had to run into) but is predominantly used and defined by his ability to keep the ball, then games like Swansea, best he do it a bit better than he did.

Quite simple really.when the game was screaming out for a Liverpool player to get his foot on the ball and keep showing himself, no one strides up.

Again, using shelvey was relevant only because it emphasised that a limited footballer can extend himself when needed.

In Lucas, my point was, we just seen to have a fantastic motor car that refuses to go below or above idling.

A constant.


Funnily enough, I was only using this as an example as to why Lucas can attract negativity.

I think most people understand my point.
 

Mascot88

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RedRiot said:
Think it makes more sense to leave Gerrard deep and put Henderson forward. If Allen was fit, I'd also drop Gerrard and pair Allen with Lucas, as I think the three of them (Allen, Lucas, Henderson) are all fairly mobile. Lucas was not immobile last night. IF we're saying the problem is mobility (I don't necessarily think it is) then Gerrard is the one most in need of dropping. He's the least mobile at this point. I think he offers a lot more when he's on song than Allen might, but I think Lucas and Allen offer a lot more balance in midfield. It won't happen, but I think it would improve things.
If you put Hendo as the forward CM you lose a lot of attacking impetus. The reason for moving Gerrard up is that you get Henderson's engine where it's most needed, and you free Gerrard's attacking instinct, whilst giving him less running to do.
 

Ningles

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RedSeven said:
Who has said this.
I think the majority of the discussions have been constructive.Questions have been asked but nobody seems to have been going over the top in terms of criticism,and compliments,while few on the ground ,have been dished out when warranted.
i was reading through the early pages and whilst not in so many words, the level of despair was alarming. definitely not perfect at the moment, but we're on the right track.
 

RedSeven

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Ningles said:
i was reading through the early pages and whilst not in so many words, the level of despair was alarming. definitely not perfect at the moment, but we're on the right track.
We had such a bad 2nd half that this type of reaction/overreaction is the norm for most fans,no matter who you support.Once emotions are settled,most have a clearer viewpoint,although there is a definite cause for concern considering the 2nd half of previous games would tell us this is a pattern which if not sorted out quickly,could lead to bigger problems,teams know we fold easily if pushed,which we did.
 



SoueysTash

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Ningles said:
i was reading through the early pages and whilst not in so many words, the level of despair was alarming. definitely not perfect at the moment, but we're on the right track.
If we all review the level of improvements gained by the second half of last season...I don't think there's anything to worry about if we can repeat that, we're chipping away at our points target and whilst we're not as free flowing as we were Jan onwards last year, we're consistently scoring points and looking at the next few fixtures, there's no reason why we shouldn't continue like this. Just wished we had Chelsea right now whilst they're looking dodgy!
 

Seamus

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I'd say something if we were beaten but to come away with a draw is a decent result away from home. I know the second half performances have been mediocre to say the least and teams will get encouragement if the problem persists but to be fair its still only 5 games into our season and the some of the new players are still trying to settle in.

We played with a completely different defense on Monday night than we did against the Mancs before the International break and that wouldn't have been easy for our defense and Sakho in particular, it was a real baptism of fire for him but I'm convinced it would have helped him shake off some of the cobwebs.

We played with Moses on the wing, again another debut for the redmen. He played well and took his goal very nicely but it was all new for him in terms of the system and the managers philosophy of how the game should be played.

Stevie looked tired after coming back from international duty but hopefully this was only a blip. When he is playing and has a bad game it upsets the dynamics of the team but to be fair to lad, that seldom happens

Top of the league and unbeaten in 5 games is good for the team and the supporters. We should concentrate on the positives at the moment because there are plenty, and get behind the lads we have here now because that's the way it will be until the January window.

The team is moving in the right direction and to date we have no team holding bragging rights over us. If that's not a positive thing then i am deluded surely.
 
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RedRiot

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redbj said:
I have seen many a deep lying midfielder get his foot on the ball and control the game, at many different levels, at the pinicke you have pirlo, but he doesnt need to raise his game to those levels.I think your missing my point.

Lucas didn't have to challenge for a header in the box to effect the game, infancy it was a damn site easier for him and Gerard to both get control of that game than it was for shelvey to.

Ill admit I'm having a cunt of a time explaining it, but if Lucas isn't asked to get forward, nor asked to protect the back four ( resulting in them leaving spaces like the paddock shelvey had to run into) but is predominantly used and defined by his ability to keep the ball, then games like Swansea, best he do it a bit better than he did.

Quite simple really.when the game was screaming out for a Liverpool player to get his foot on the ball and keep showing himself, no one strides up.

Again, using shelvey was relevant only because it emphasised that a limited footballer can extend himself when needed.

In Lucas, my point was, we just seen to have a fantastic motor car that refuses to go below or above idling.

A constant.


Funnily enough, I was only using this as an example as to why Lucas can attract negativity.

I think most people understand my point.
Why is this a criticism of Lucas though and not Gerrard, who was worse on the night than Lucas in both aspects of the game? Yes, both could have gotten their foot on the ball and held onto possession, but Gerrard conceded possession far too often with overambitious balls (yes he was trying something, but he was trying something that had infinitessimal chance of coming off)like one from the deep left side inside our own half to the advanced right wing that was easily intercepted and started a counter attack. Lucas did do a good defensive job for much of the game, but like most of the rest of the team, he lost it in that last 35.

I agree that one or both of those should be able to regain an influence on the ball and on the game thereby. I just don't know why Lucas bears the brunt of it. Gerrard was worse on the day and we all know he has a greater capacity with his talent to actually influence play. Also, let's not pretend that the CM duo were totally culpable. No one was passing well, and rather frequently, our midfield was given little chance with really poor play on the ball from the right side of our defense, who either looked like the deer in headlights (Wisdom) or like the one-dimensional clearance-first defender (Skrtel).

I think the broader point, however, is that the unit stopped working together to regain and retain possession in that last 35. That goes back to instruction and to management. They didn't stop playing that way of their own volition.

Edit: With all respect, bj, I just don't see the same Lucas you do. I don't see a car idling. Lucas was all over the pitch (as he usually is) against Swansea, particularly in the first half, and looked more mobile and capable of influencing the game than he has in months. Whereas I rarely noticed Gerrard doing anything (and he's usually hard to miss) I saw Lucas all over the place. So when you say that's why he attracts criticism, I still don't see it. Because it doesn't line up with the game I watched. I watched a match where our captain was barely involved, made a few defensive mistakes and did little else, while Lucas was heavily involved, particularly in our best period of play, and then struggled when the rest of the team did. I didn't see a man idling.
 
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RedRiot

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Mascot88 said:
If you put Hendo as the forward CM you lose a lot of attacking impetus. The reason for moving Gerrard up is that you get Henderson's engine where it's most needed, and you free Gerrard's attacking instinct, whilst giving him less running to do.
I disagree. I think you lose attacking quality, perhaps, in the final third at least, but definitely not impetus. Right now, Henderson's energy to burst forward from our own half and participate in attacks is much greater than Gerrard's. Gerrard could sit and dictate play in the opposition half, but he wouldn't get through much defensive work and would tire more quickly. He has more quality in the final third than Henderson, but I think at this stage of his career he's better sitting back. When he's good there, he's very good. I'm not sure he would be as good in the CAM role anymore.
 

zagueiro

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i_still_miss_fowler said:
I dont disagree Zagueiro every player should be critised if they have a poor game.

Having said that I feel the focus upon him, neglects the bigger problem of our team performance. When he got subbed it was not as if our performance improved. To me Swansea looked just as likely to score (in fact I thought they looked more threatening).

Ultimately too much pressure was placed upon our defense as our midfield where unable to keep hold of the ball (and when Mignolet kicked the the ball forward, it came straight back)

Here is the second goal in still images



What I really dislike about this is

1/ Lack of pressing
2/ Marking of space rather than man
3/ Midfield too deep (and easily bypassed)
3/ Positioning of midfield players poor
4/ Sahko steping out (leaving huge hole in center)
5/ Far to much time for opposition to pick out a ball.

This is the bigger issue, and is illustrative of the problems during the second half. Defending too deep, not pressing and getting dragged out of position.

Tired legs, mobility, Lucas on a yellow card, tactics, getting to know each other all contribute to differing extents to me. But I am sure every one has their own theories why.

Focusing on Wisdom, is really a side issue to what should be the main topic of debate.
TBF, I wasn't focusing on Wisdom just to single him out, I was pointing out that his performance shouldn't be ignored in the context of the game. I don't think Mignolet's constant hoofing should be ignored either, it made things very difficult for the team as the ball just kept getting hoofed up to Aspas. Aspas may turn out to have many footballing talents, but fighting the Swansea CB's in an aerial battle is most definitely not one of them. As a consequence the ball just kept coming back at a midfield who were definitely tiring.

I do agree that there was a general team inability to hold on to the ball. Aspas pass completion was a woeful 66%, most certainly as a result of Mignolet's hoofing. Mignolets hoofs reached a red shirt just 53% of the time. Toure's pass completion was 62% while Wisdoms was 74%. It's these players who hindered the maintaining of possessino, even Moses and Raheem only managed 75%, yet posters continue to blame thecentral midfield for failing to maintain possession and taking control of the game. With the ball constantly flying over their heads I'm not sure how they are supposed to do this? Lucas had a pass completion of more 92.3%. He passed the ball to a team mate more often than any of our midfielders or forwards. So I'd be interested to know how others can blame a player who almost constantly DID keep possession for the team for the lack of us maintaining possession when I have shown this is just incorrect?
 



zagueiro

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Quagmire81 said:
I think we have a very serious case of man-crush from one poster on a certain player, I don't think I need to name any names :D

We should have a warning for all new posters that join up about it. It could save a few monitors and keyboards in the future.
What's the point of this post? It's just wumming at it's worse. I put a coherant argument forward to counteract unfair and unwarranted criticisms of one of the key players in our team. I also defend other players when i feel the criticism is unjustified.

We're here to discuss the match, not other posters .................now, what happened to the wanker emoticon, I feel it's appropriate here.
 

lfc.eddie

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Just wondering Zaguero, if there is actually a stat showing that passing to a teammate who is being marked, and the teammate lost the ball because he has nowhere to go or turn? I said this and it is not on Lucas alone, but Gerrard too in this particular game, passing for the sake of raking up stats. Often they pick out passes that rushed somewhat and their teammates got caught with the ball and disposes. That fault lies to the man with the ball, rather than the passer. Keep hold of the ball, and that is what we were missing. Nobody was doing that, shielding the ball and keeping, slow the tempo down and not just pass the ball for the sake of passing.
 

Quagmire81

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zagueiro said:
What's the point of this post? It's just wumming at it's worse. I put a coherant argument forward to counteract unfair and unwarranted criticisms of one of the key players in our team. I also defend other players when i feel the criticism is unjustified.

We're here to discuss the match, not other posters .................now, what happened to the wanker emoticon, I feel it's appropriate here.
No you are shutting down any constructive criticism of said player, and using a hostile tone on top of it. Me saying you have a man crush on him is just me saying you have clouded views, which you confirm again and again. After a while it becomes crystal clear and rather comical. So yes I was having a laugh on your account, consider it a side-effect to your behaviour toward other posters.
 

zagueiro

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lfc.eddie said:
Just wondering Zaguero, if there is actually a stat showing that passing to a teammate who is being marked, and the teammate lost the ball because he has nowhere to go or turn? I said this and it is not on Lucas alone, but Gerrard too in this particular game, passing for the sake of raking up stats. Often they pick out passes that rushed somewhat and their teammates got caught with the ball and disposes. That fault lies to the man with the ball, rather than the passer. Keep hold of the ball, and that is what we were missing. Nobody was doing that, shielding the ball and keeping, slow the tempo down and not just pass the ball for the sake of passing.
Not to my knowledge no, no stats like this exist. But integral to Rodgers style of football is technical ability. Coutinho, Suarez, Sturridge, these guys can hold up passes pinged in to feet by Lucas/Gerrard. Aspas obviously can't yet. I doubt Lucas or Gerrard consider their passing stats when chosing to pass the ball.........:S. The scenario you mention occurs in all games, but not with anymore frequency from our midfield than any others.
 

Arminius

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zagueiro said:
Not to my knowledge no, no stats like this exist. But integral to Rodgers style of football is technical ability. Coutinho, Suarez, Sturridge, these guys can hold up passes pinged in to feet by Lucas/Gerrard. Aspas obviously can't yet. I doubt Lucas or Gerrard consider their passing stats when chosing to pass the ball.........:S. The scenario you mention occurs in all games, but not with anymore frequency from our midfield than any others.
I have yet to see it applied to football, but basketball has been analyzed recently (interesting summary in Wired, December 2012 ) using network analysis whereby each player is a node - in terms of overall 'network performance', a node's performance is measured as a function of both transmission and reception. Translated into sporting terms, that makes sense, a player needs to pass and make themselves available to receive, then execute the reception and pass onward. Considering that this analysis is actually harder to do in basketball (though easier to get coherent results from as a result) due to the greater number of passes, I would expect it is only a matter of time before we do have these statistics.