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Post match thread: Swansea 2 Liverpool 2

Bobbinho

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2013
Messages
1,700
@Redriot - Let me be clear about what i said, the discussion we were having was actually about this game, the point made re Lucas & Shelvey was in that context, i just happened to pick up on the same observation as another poster & agreed with him, probably should have made my point less ambiguous so therefore it was open to interpretation...., during the game i found myself actually admiring how Jonjo won control over the midfield obviously with the help of other team mates but that particular point itself was clear enough.

What I you or anyone else thinks of Shelvey matters not because he's not our player anymore.....opinions will vary from your own which is the concrete belief that he is basically Championship quality....a "Gerrard without a brain"... to those who might think he has enough quality to become a pretty decent player depending on how he develops.. im of that opinion.

Its hard to say that his imput didn't cause us a whole host of problems tho in this game....the pressure that we were under in the last 35....was very much due to how Swansea were allowed to dominate the centre of the park, they basically got the upper hand & it was a creditable performance....one that we should learn from as we can't keep up this type of second half drama without eventually taking a hammering....

By reading your recent posts i can see that our opinions differ, you would like to drop Gerrard....& you are suggesting that the team is basically being instructed to give up the game in the second half......

You said -
throughout the team yesterday in the second half, we didn't take care of the ball and we didn't press to win it back when we lost it. Search me why those instructions are being given, but it's not the failing of one part of XI, it's a designed failing. Whatever Rodgers is trying to achieve (and by all means, in terms of results, he's mostly done it) it's not working in the way that it should - with us actually confidently seeing off opponents. The problems with our second half displays are numerous, but they have nothing to do with individual players taking on responsibility to change the game. It's all about the entire changing its focus, intensity and approach. It's a tactical decision that seems like it's bound to failure long-term.
You are blatantly blaming our second half capitulations on Brendan Rodger's......& absolving our player's of any blame.....

Tbh, this is the type of mentality that these player's love...because it empower's them to play like shit at times & get away with it, thinking that the manager will get the boot & that their career at the Club will continue unquestioned....

I find it incredible that you think BR is instructing player's in essence to give up on a game, the player's he has brought in are the one's who have helped us get off to such a good start in the league.....i think if you cast your mind back to last season whereby when we capitulated we really capitulated, lost games, dropped points because of individual player error's.....Reina Agger Skrtel were responsible for a fair few alone, then you had Enrique no end product running like a loon with the ball only to squander possession ditto Glen.....& Lucas who granted came back from that injury but was well below his usual form, making a number of errors himself......

Sturridge has been the shining light, Hendo has improved no end, Gerrard was solid for the best part of last season, played well......now we have Mignolet who has already saved us a few points....Toure who came straight in & helped shore up the defence....Moses who will provide a stronger & quicker attack.....Sakho who is providing serious competition for a first team place ( a good thing in case Agger or Skrtel revert to having a few mares...) & Illori who will no doubt provide a decent option somehwere along the backline or maybe even as DM...& Cissokho who i am keen to see back in the side.....Kelly out Allen out but due to come back.....

So, i just cannot fathom your thinking at all as to why BR is to blame....for what...? Strengthening the weak area's from last season or at least trying to, with the budget he was allowed.....?

You say it is destined to fail, i say that we are at the top of the league after four games....best start to a season for a very long time & i am very happy about that, not happy that we still have a few individuals who don't quite seem up to the task in hand but i have confidence that BR will be aware of that & i think he will try to deal with our second half capitulation by giving the new squad player's a proper chance to prove themselves, best of bloody luck to him as well i say, i sincerely hope that he is successful because I would like to see us (like most people..) play for the full 90.. like we can for the first 45....
 


R

RedRiot

Guest
JoebloggsLFC said:
You say a lot, but I feel I can address it in a few sentences. Jonjo didn't "win" the midfield, the introduction of De Guzman and his play was a big factor. Jonjo had less defensive responsibility after that, allowing him to "impact" the game.

With regard to Rodgers' instructions, given that the team has played in that fashion more or less in every second half, it would seem logical to conclude that dropping back, decreasing pressing and trying to remain compact would be down to instruction, not a collective failure of the team to engage the other team as they had in the first half. Individual sloppiness and mistakes play their role, but it's clearly a gameplan situation. Yes, we're top of the league and credit to BR for that (I'm a big fan) but ultimately we will drop points if we continue in the Jekyll/Hyde mode of play. We need to assert ourselves through 90 minutes more frequently.
 

redbj

hurry up, July 1st, let's get the show on the road
Joined
Jun 23, 2003
Messages
17,513
Just to rewind a wee but, red riot, you asked the question why Lucas was getting the criticism and not Gerard?

Simple in the context.

And that was, can zag et al see that Lucas' inability to try and change a game instead of just being a ball retention machine leads to some criticism?

That's why shelves name gets a mention. That's why Gerard's name is given a miss.

To be clear, Gerard was just as shit as Lucas in the end of that game.

And one other point, zagerio mentions how Lucas and Gerard were meant to get their foot on the ball when no one would pass to them?

I suppose the real question isn't the pass completion of a goalkeeper or centre half, but why weren't they passing through the middle?

I'm going to say its not because Lucas and Gerard presented themsves time and time again just to be ignored.
 

Bobbinho

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2013
Messages
1,700
RedRiot said:
You say a lot, but I feel I can address it in a few sentences. Jonjo didn't "win" the midfield, the introduction of De Guzman and his play was a big factor. Jonjo had less defensive responsibility after that, allowing him to "impact" the game.

With regard to Rodgers' instructions, given that the team has played in that fashion more or less in every second half, it would seem logical to conclude that dropping back, decreasing pressing and trying to remain compact would be down to instruction, not a collective failure of the team to engage the other team as they had in the first half. Individual sloppiness and mistakes play their role, but it's clearly a gameplan situation. Yes, we're top of the league and credit to BR for that (I'm a big fan) but ultimately we will drop points if we continue in the Jekyll/Hyde mode of play. We need to assert ourselves through 90 minutes more frequently.
This is not really addressing it tho IMHO.....it is just regurgitating the same point's you made previously, that I addressed, in depth.....

But anyway, its been an interesting discussion, it's fine that we differ in our opinions, better to leave it at that for now..., we've both had our say & made our position clear re these particular issue's.
 

jimmydestiny

In between the lines
Joined
Jul 10, 2007
Messages
2,057
All that death by football talk looks a little ridiculous when you read all the comments about how tired our boys look after a first half where we had the majority of the play.
 



R

RedRiot

Guest
JoebloggsLFC said:
This is not really addressing it tho IMHO.....it is just regurgitating the same point's you made previously, that I addressed, in depth.....
 
But anyway, its been an interesting discussion, it's fine that we differ in our opinions, better to leave it at that for now..., we've both had our say & made our position clear re these particular issue's.
Fair enough, we can leave it there. It does strike me as odd that anyone could claim that our second half approach has been anything other than by design from the manager given how it's been repeated, but if you feel comfortable asserting it's anomalous to this game, then I can agree to disagree.
 

Bobbinho

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2013
Messages
1,700
@Redriot - Stop repeating yourself.....it's boring & makes you look like a bad loser....& a troll which im sure your not.

I completely & utterly disagree with your pov regarding BR & i have stated in detail why....

Just leave it....
 

darren kelly

"Luisito Estamos Con Vos"
Joined
Jan 29, 2011
Messages
2,472
Williams kicks our player out of the game and the media says nothing.If Luis kicked out at a man like that we would have ww3 and a ban.He nearly got Coutinho in the Brazil nuts
 

Never Say Never

FSG are the iluminati
Joined
Aug 15, 2010
Messages
2,864
JoebloggsLFC said:
@Redriot - Let me be clear about what i said, the discussion we were having was actually about this game, the point made re Lucas & Shelvey was in that context, i just happened to pick up on the same observation as another poster & agreed with him, probably should have made my point less ambiguous so therefore it was open to interpretation...., during the game i found myself actually admiring how Jonjo won control over the midfield obviously with the help of other team mates but that particular point itself was clear enough.

What I you or anyone else thinks of Shelvey matters not because he's not our player anymore.....opinions will vary from your own which is the concrete belief that he is basically Championship quality....a "Gerrard without a brain"... to those who might think he has enough quality to become a pretty decent player depending on how he develops.. im of that opinion.

Its hard to say that his imput didn't cause us a whole host of problems tho in this game....the pressure that we were under in the last 35....was very much due to how Swansea were allowed to dominate the centre of the park, they basically got the upper hand & it was a creditable performance....one that we should learn from as we can't keep up this type of second half drama without eventually taking a hammering....

By reading your recent posts i can see that our opinions differ, you would like to drop Gerrard....& you are suggesting that the team is basically being instructed to give up the game in the second half......

You said -

You are blatantly blaming our second half capitulations on Brendan Rodger's......& absolving our player's of any blame.....

Tbh, this is the type of mentality that these player's love...because it empower's them to play like shit at times & get away with it, thinking that the manager will get the boot & that their career at the Club will continue unquestioned....
You do realize, that in any management position, be it football or otherwise a manager is responsible for the performance of those under him. So yes, he is responsible. If something is not going well, you change it and his changes were poor. We've done very well this season, no doubt but I don't think we should call the Swansea game, really the second half, anything other than it was.

Also, your point about Brendan not instructing players to drop off is just wrong, as after the eithe the match against villa or united, he mentioned that the plan was to drop off and defend more after getting the lead.

Again we've done great this season but when you start denying problems, they start compounding
 

Bobbinho

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2013
Messages
1,700
Never Say Never said:
You do realize, that in any management position, be it football or otherwise a manager is responsible for the performance of those under him. So yes, he is responsible. If something is not going well, you change it and his changes were poor. We've done very well this season, no doubt but I don't think we should call the Swansea game, really the second half, anything other than it was.

Also, your point about Brendan not instructing players to drop off is just wrong, as after the eithe the match against villa or united, he mentioned that the plan was to drop off and defend more after getting the lead.

Again we've done great this season but when you start denying problems, they start compounding
Yes, of course i realize that BR is responsible & will utlimately have to shoulder the blame, but IF you have been following the discussion you would realize that my point of view is based on underperforming player's who have been letting the team & the manager down.....

You talk about denial compounding the problem.....yet if you did follow this discussion then you would know that this was exactly the point that i made in regard to certain player's...& a lack of accountability for them....

You could say that my pov is one of support for the manager.....yes, i know it's unbelievable that anyone should want to support our manager.....but i do because i think he is making progress, simple as that, but we still have player's from last season.. who in my opinion are letting us down, hence why i am also supportive of BR's new recruits...

Hope that clears things up for you.