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Post Match: West Brom 1 - 1 Liverpool

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Urban Achiever

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@ Cardiffpete

"What was meant by "multiplier" was clear though aka the very rare type of player, whose mere presence on the pitch lifts all those around him to greater heights, in some way or other."

Well, just because someone "meant" that about Allen does not make it true.... and therefore justifies nothing in relation to his teammate, Lucas Leiva.

You seem to then just lift off with this argument and fuel it by dropping names of some of the best footballers in the history of the game. Legends who not only stuck out as "multipliers" or extremely talented and skilled, but also as someone who even at the top level of the sport had that "extra" touch, that could influence games. One needs to think of it in the way that ALL players we sit and watch on TV are absolutely brilliant compared to the usual nobody playing a bit of football as a kid dreaming of becoming the next Messi, Pele or Zlatan. Everyone dreams about it but only the top, top players of each generation even have the slightest chance of even becoming a squad player in the Premier League.

The players you mention not only have always been the best of the best when they were kids... they are also clearly the best among their peers. They are so good that even competing with the elite players of the world they still shine the brightest. That's a true "multiplier" and I do agree with you that some people are actually this good. Some also offers a bit of this by an extremely important personality or mentality.... some by exeptional defensive qualities.... but to really make the difference you talk about when mentioning those names.... well, you have to be more than a good player and a great guy. Lucas Leiva is both. Good guy and a fine footballer.... it's very, very few people in the world who are good enough to even participate at that level. I doubt anyone reading this would not very much like to have been that talented themselves... to have the possibility of having those extremely special experiences.

Having said that Lucas will never ever be among the elite of the brand of very talented people he works with.... and neither will Joe Allan. But that's not saying they are not good or contributing. Playing for FX Brazil and Liverpool and getting paid insane salaries that will have you super rich for life.....and definately doing a fine job at it, is still only an experience very, very few people in this world get to have.... so, I don't really think they're to pity all that much.

But talking Lucas up to be more than he is... a solid and reliable 1st temaer.... is doing noone any favours. He is not, and will never ever be, among the best defensive midfielders in the world. He is not as bad as he's sometimes made out to be either... so, I get why you guys defend him.... but the level this defending is going to sometimes is beyond ridiculous.

When some of you defend him like there's no friggin' tomorrow it only makes the critical eyes on him even more critical.
 

Hope in your heart

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Haha, it's as clear as the noses on our faces that we are a weaker team when Lucas is injured. Why is this even discussed? We win much more games when he is in the team than when he is not. Since ages.

Doesn't mean we can't look out for another efficient DM (f*ck knows we could use one, and I'm completely stunned that the club STILL haven't identified it as a major weakness in the squad) but don't let's look over the crux of the matter:

LFC with a fit Lucas >>> LFC without Lucas. No need to argue about this me seems...
 

Johnny T.

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He adds something Hope, that's accepted. But it is irritating to note some if the comparitors noted on here. Clodoaldo? Whelan? Alonso? Seriously??
 

redbj

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Hope, Liverpool with a new, better DM or whatever the fuck is the latest trend to call it is >>>>>>>liverpool with lucas
 

Hope in your heart

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Johnny T. said:
He adds something Hope, that's accepted. But it is irritating to note some if the comparitors noted on here. Clodoaldo? Whelan? Alonso? Seriously??
Clodoaldo I have never heard of. Whelan is in another league imo, his winning record and longevity in a Liverpool team at it's peak speaks for itself. Same applies for Xabi Alonso, who is worth ten Lucas Leivas imo, but doesn't play the exact same role. It would be nice to see them paired together in a 4-2-3-1...

In my view, Lucas has become a reliable and useful first-team member for this club. There are better players out there in his role, no questions, but for the time being, he's the best DM at Liverpool. I don't think that can be questioned.
 

Urban Achiever

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Hope, I don't think anyone would argue that it's better to have Lucas fit....?

But comparing him to the top players in the game.... and claiming that because two errors that happened one year a part, only ocurred because he didn't play.... in two very different teams in two different seasons.... that's not just "bad evidence". It's completely out of this world nonsense.

It's kind of like the Welsh Xavi comment didn't do Allen no favours..... making Lucas out to be at FX Yaya's level is just plain wrong.

There are so many DMs in the league who are a couple of levels above what Lucas delivers. That's not the same as saying he does not contribute though..... but one could argue that a midfield of Gerrard, Hendo and Allen does perhaps offer at least the same defensivley.... while at the same time offering a bit more going forward as well.
 

redbj

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It can be questioned, absolutely. Stevie g is better.....
 

WellRedKev

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Think the debate has lasted 12 rounds of blow for blow action.
Ps coldoaldo....... who has seen many of his performances live? What a scenester comparison that is.
 

Arminius

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Hope in your heart said:
Clodoaldo I have never heard of.
Not really interested in wading into the argument, but well worth looking into him - maybe one of the most subtly influential players in the game, as the holding midfielder for both Pele's Santos team, and the great 1970 Brazil team. Probably his two most famous moments are overshadowed by the final scores - his equalizer against Uruguay in the semifinal turned the game at the half, and Brazil just rolled them in the second half. His assist against Italy in the final was stunning, like Messi playing DM, but it was the last goal of a 4-1 romp.

Never saw him live, but when I was a kid I lived in a hotel for nearly 4 months that had about 5 sportsreel documentaries on closed-circuit in the dining room, must have seen the one about Brazil 1970 nearly a hundred times.
 

Johnny T.

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To say that Clodaldo was central to that teams success is similar to saying Busquets is central to Barca. Clodoaldo was by no means a DM in our modern sense, more of a ball player than that. Comparing Lucas to him is unfair on Lucas, like comparing Traore to Desailly back a few years ago.
 

lfc.eddie

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Alright, look.... Even with Lucas on the pitch won't be able to stop that error from Toure. The only person that could have stopped that from happening is Toure himself, and if we want to dig a bit deeper Mignolet could probably have prevented it too by not rolling the ball to him when he has 3 West Brom players in close proximity to our 3 defenders.
 
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kingcymru

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whether Lucas was fit or not would have made no difference at all to the result. Lucas is limited in what he offers in attack and therefore wouldn't have impacted our tally and would have been absolutely helpless to stop a stupid mistake by a central defender.

This was one of those horrible games where you need to grind out a 1-0 win, and we nearly did except for a howler.
 

SoueysTash

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Think Lucas needs more thread hijacks. He's definitely going to win that award at the end of season tia review
 

Quagmire81

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Some act like we never had bad results with Lucas in the team.

we have had some absolutely grusome results with him as our DM. Just last season when we meet WBA away. We got crushed 3-0 and he was the DM in that game. This time without him we draw, so that's an improvement right there.
 

OhYaBeauty

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Johnny, I really don't see why you need to continually put down Lucas. Its completely fair not to rate him, but becoming so unreasonable (and before we say that we're completely level-headed, let's remember what we just said to Cardiffpete) just because some posters compare him to other players is silly. I strongly doubt that anyone in here thinks he's got the same ability as Clodoaldo (whom I've never even heard of, for the record), Whelan, or Alonso; only that he performs the same general role in the team. That is, to stay deep, keep numbers back in case of counterattack, and distribute the ball to the creators.

For the most part, it's a thankless role with only the very best recognized for their talents. I'm sure we can all name countless talented number nines and wingers down through the ages, but that there's only a few defensive midfielder recognized for their greatness is a testament to how thankless the position is.
 

Johnny T.

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OhYaBeauty said:
Johnny, I really don't see why you need to continually put down Lucas.
I don't constantly put him down, but I object to being preached at and berated by those who think he is brilliant. He is average mostly and very good at times. Comparing him to Whelan, say not to mention players like Clodoaldo is an insult to the intelligence of people who take the club seriously. He wouldn't get his place in a successful team, he is not coveted by the top clubs, he has zero impact on game outcome, his passing and tackling are limited and fuck me is he slow. It makes no sense to build him up with meaningless stats and not SEE what happens on the pitch. The thing that annoys me most is the sanctimonious and condescending attitude of some people on here, when they TELL us that we don't understand how good he is, I mean he is being called a "Multiplier" in the same breath as Cruyff etc. Gerrard isn't considered a multiplier despite the performances in Istanbul and Wembley. He has more impact on those around him than Gerrard?? And this takes a ream of prose and hyperbole to disseminate??

Be fair mate, have a go at others as well, and try to see the logic in my argument, without singling me out for your tuppence worth.
 

OhYaBeauty

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Johnny T. said:
I don't constantly put him down, but I object to being preached at and berated by those who think he is brilliant. He is average mostly and very good at times. Comparing him to Whelan, say not to mention players like Clodoaldo is an insult to the intelligence of people who take the club seriously. He wouldn't get his place in a successful team, he is not coveted by the top clubs, he has zero impact on game outcome, his passing and tackling are limited and fuck me is he slow. It makes no sense to build him up with meaningless stats and not SEE what happens on the pitch. The thing that annoys me most is the sanctimonious and condescending attitude of some people on here, when they TELL us that we don't understand how good he is, I mean he is being called a "Multiplier" in the same breath as Cruyff etc. Gerrard isn't considered a multiplier despite the performances in Istanbul and Wembley. He has more impact on those around him than Gerrard?? And this takes a ream of prose and hyperbole to disseminate??

Be fair mate, have a go at others as well, and try to see the logic in my argument, without singling me out for your tuppence worth.
I realize I was a bit unfair in singling you out, but I'm sure you understand the difficulty of multi-quoting you, zagueiro, Mr V, lovepool, and everybody else who's been less-than-civil in the World War Lucas (I coin this term as the battle for Lucas' reputation seems to be waged across many fronts, from the post-match thread to his player's thread, to Gerrard's thread ;) ). I don't mean to single you out, but it's just a right place right time sort of situation that I ended up quoting you.

I bolded quite a bit of your post. There's plenty of other parts of it that I'd like to discuss, but I won't as they're irrelevant to my first post and rather about Lucas' value. Thing is, for the most part Lucas' supporters on this forum [and I exclude zagueiro here, for obvious reasons] are fair and share their opinion without resorting to name-calling [I guess it's obvious that I'm referring to cardiffpete here, whom I don't always agree with on Lucas but I hold his opinions on other footballing issues in high esteem]. I don't think that they preach, either; rather they try to share their opinion without insulting yours, which is something I can't always say of yourself. You don't have to agree with their points, but just give it some thought and dismiss it if you dislike it. There's no benefit to accusing posters of preaching; it just furthers the claims that posters have agendas which further polarizes the argument.




So here's my plea to everyone on here: Can we please cut out the extremism with regard to Lucas? It seems some posters (zagueiro) think he's the best thing since sliced bread while others (Mr V) think he's a shit player who wouldn't cut it at Hull. Why can't we step away from the wall a bit, drop the extremism, concede that the other side has their points (as Johnny just did above by saying that Lucas was "very good at times"), and get along?

Guess I should've posted that in Lucas' thread... Oh well, World War Lucas has to stop somewhere, right?
 

Semmy

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Lucas didn't even play this game, as was pointed out earlier. Can we move on?
 

Johnny T.

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OhYaBeauty
This is a football forum, a discussion vehicle. I will speak my mind, and express my opinion, despite your plea. The Mods can and will legislate on what's fair or reasonable. If I transgress the rules I will know about it.
 

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Ok lads, all that being said, let's take out the next round in the Lucas thread, and keep this one for post-match thoughts.
 

Claymenza

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Alonso was a deep lying creator, not just someone who keeps things ticking. When he plays, he would normally get the assist behind the assist....whether it's a raking pass that makes the winger not need to beat his defender or a through ball to gerrard who would slide it for torres.

Lucas wins the ball occasionally but only gets the chance to pass it 10 yards up. At least with mascherano, he knew his role to win the ball more frequently, and pass it sideways to Alonso who can redirect it 40 yards further.

I know rafa burnt bridges with Alonso, but we forget sometimes why we love him so much that it's a sad story.

I think Henderson and allen should be our future midfield pairing. Sure they are not as good as mascherano and Alonso, but they well rounded enough to be able to move possession up 40 yards collectively instead of being one dimensional.

Suarez and sturridge are on fire, and we have traditional wingers like moses and sterling on form....it only makes sense of we try to identify our best midfield bank of four.
 

anglian_red

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Johnny T. said:
I had to come back to this. We dropped points against West Brom because Lucas was missing. Give me a fucking break. Posts in a simar vein against Lucas were at one point considered trolling or baiting.
I don't think we dropped points at West Brom due to Lucas not playing, we clearly dropped points because Kolo Toure forgot who he was playing for. You can't really take one game in isolation as definitive proof of anything and I say that as Lucas' biggest fan.

There is however clear statistical evidence that Liverpools form over the last couple of years has more to do with whether Lucas is playing than whoevers the manager.

In these stats I've only taken League games but this is how they tally;

25 League Games with Lucas prior to knee injury at Chelsea

P 25 W 12 D 7 L 6

43 points from a possible 75. 1.72 points-per-game.

38 League Games with Lucas missing following knee injury at Chelsea

P 38 W 11 D 12 L 15

45 points from a possible 114. 1.18 points-per-game.

45 League Games since Lucas returned to the starting XI against Southampton (Dec 2012)

P 45 W 26 D 9 L 10

87 points from a possible 135. 1.93 points-per-game.


The stats do show 11-12 took a dip after his injury with us taking 23 points from 13 games before his injury to take 16 points from the following 13. Even Gerrard returning from injury didn't arrest a further slide in League form.

That's probably less stark than the instant improvement in the team after he came back against Southampton in December 2012. Don't forget there'd been a change of management in the meantime, Rodgers had been here for 6 months, Suarez was smashing goals in for fun & Steven Gerrard had been ever present that season. Yet we'd won 3 of 15 prior to Lucas' return and 9 of 15 after it.

Note: The stats cut off before the 2-2 draw with Villa due to him only playing 20 minutes. The 'with Lucas' section includes the 3-0 defeat at West Brom but doesn't include his 5 minute showing against Man City.
 

Hope in your heart

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Ok, there is obviously nothing to say anymore about this match. I'll close this, but there's always the Lucas thread...

:rolleyes:
 
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