Post Match: Wolves 2-1 Liverpool (FAC 7/1/19 7.45pm)

Man of the Match

  • Mignolet

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Camacho

    Votes: 6 5.0%
  • Fabinho

    Votes: 34 28.1%
  • Lovren [off 7’]

    Votes: 3 2.5%
  • Moreno

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Milner

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Keita

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Jones [off 70’]

    Votes: 2 1.7%
  • Shaqiri

    Votes: 2 1.7%
  • Sturridge [off 70’]

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Origi [GOAL 51’]

    Votes: 4 3.3%
  • Hoever [on 7’]

    Votes: 69 57.0%
  • Firmino [on 70’]

    Votes: 1 0.8%
  • Salah [on 70’]

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    121

Scott Jones

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Anyone satisifed seeing away supporters singing about them beating us or knocking us out of the cup, has got some issues. Yeah I get the bigger picture, but surely a team like Liverpool plays to win. Efforts like last night can have no postive outcome.

Save us the embarrassment LFC and ditch the cup comps. At least announce you will play the reserves so people won't be arsed tuning in.

I am well past caring about it this morning, but nothing changes my opinion that that was a disgrace last night. Small part of me would be happy to see Klopp win fuck all...... I'll probably get over that an' all.
Wolves beat a very weakened team so can sing all they fucking want.
 

Mascot88

Yours for £1m. Need to make room for Dean Saunders
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Anyone satisifed seeing away supporters singing about them beating us or knocking us out of the cup, has got some issues.
I’d say it’s the person who’s arsed about stuff like that has the issues.
 

Red over the water

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Trophies may not be worth more financially than finishing fourth but I suspect the players would value them more. An FA Cup winners medal looks better in the cabinet than a 2nd, 3rd or 4th place medal, if you actually get one that is. Ask former players what their best memories are and it won't be that game when we beat West Ham to clinch 4th place.

JK just about gets away with it this time,.......but only if we win the league. If we finish 2nd or 3rd then it will have been another failure....we can't carry on being the annual also rans. The top 4 clubs in England win stuff. We don't.
I get the jist of what you are saying. It’s been a while since we won something and the best clubs win stuff, so we need to get back to that and win something soon.

I just want to explore what you are saying with the bold part. If we don’t win something this season, do you think Klopp needs to be sacked? I don’t want to put words in your mouth, so I’m genuinely asking what you think on that. If I’m reading you right, finishing second in the Prem is failure, and presumably so is not winning the CL? Either eventuality (or worse) would perpetuate the cycle of us being also rans.

So my question is, especially in light of the bolded part, what would you do with the manager?

My personal answer:

I think Klopp is doing a great job. It’s our best ever start in a Prem season - 21 games, and we are in the knockout stages of the CL. Before he came we had a patchy record of even qualifying to play in the CL, and in fact we were out of it more seasons than in it. Since he came in he has elevated everything about the club, and now we are solid and regular CL participants, and we are currently trying to take that last step - a very difficult step, for numerous reasons - to winning either/both the CL and the Prem. He has taken us to three finals, one of them way ahead of schedule, but you take it if it comes; and the one we should have won was the Europa final, but we didn’t.

Anyhow, for me, I think Klopp is rock solid here. We’ve gone from a Europa team/occasional CL team to now being regulars at the top table, we are top of the Prem and in the knockout stages in CL. He’s not just about getting away with anything, in my eyes at least! I think he’s doing a fantastic job and long may it continue. I’m backing him to bring the trophy we all want, and the signs of progress so far are very clear.
 

Red Ted

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No it was more a reaction to your pretention. Let's face it we are only expressing our opinions. Best just leave it at that imo.
In any case this is just a post match thread and full of knee jerk reactions that could change with a 15 minute stint in our next game. :-)
Next time you pray, tell Hendo I wish him well when he ends up at West Ham.
 

Rambler

Second is one step away from triumph.
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I get the jist of what you are saying. It’s been a while since we won something and the best clubs win stuff, so we need to get back to that and win something soon.

I just want to explore what you are saying with the bold part. If we don’t win something this season, do you think Klopp needs to be sacked? I don’t want to put words in your mouth, so I’m genuinely asking what you think on that. If I’m reading you right, finishing second in the Prem is failure, and presumably so is not winning the CL? Either eventuality (or worse) would perpetuate the cycle of us being also rans.

So my question is, especially in light of the bolded part, what would you do with the manager?

My personal answer:

I think Klopp is doing a great job. It’s our best ever start in a Prem season - 21 games, and we are in the knockout stages of the CL. Before he came we had a patchy record of even qualifying to play in the CL, and in fact we were out of it more seasons than in it. Since he came in he has elevated everything about the club, and now we are solid and regular CL participants, and we are currently trying to take that last step - a very difficult step, for numerous reasons - to winning either/both the CL and the Prem. He has taken us to three finals, one of them way ahead of schedule, but you take it if it comes; and the one we should have won was the Europa final, but we didn’t.

Anyhow, for me, I think Klopp is rock solid here. We’ve gone from a Europa team/occasional CL team to now being regulars at the top table, we are top of the Prem and in the knockout stages in CL. He’s not just about getting away with anything, in my eyes at least! I think he’s doing a fantastic job and long may it continue. I’m backing him to bring the trophy we all want, and the signs of progress so far are very clear.
I don't think there is anyone better than JK for us. He is a perfect fit. I desperately want him to win something though.....boring, boring cliche I know but true all the same.... winning is a habit and once he gets one...no matter what it is.. . I think we will get more...I don't want him having that pressure and it will only get worse if he doesn't win something this season. For a club of our stature I do think another second place and no CL win will be failure...but not a sacking offense. That would be crazy.

I want him to be regarded by future generations as a "legend" like Shanks, Paisley, Fagan and Kenny but no matter how much we love him that can't happen without trophies coming his way. You don't get legend status for being a great guy..
 
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mattyhurst

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At the end of the day.... We had not one of our starting back 5 last night (bar Lovern potentially for 5 minutes) or one of our starting 3 forwards (bar for 20 minutes).

On that basis coming in within a width of a post of a draw against a very decent Wolves team isn't concerning me. I think the injury to Lovern justified his team selection. They've also played 2 games per week since the beginning of December against Everton, Man Utd, Wolves, Napoli, Arsenal, Man City as well as Newcastle and Bournemouth. 10 games in just over a month.

We are in the last 16 of the CL and challenging for the title. We also drew a good Wolves side if we played Rotherham or Tranmere perhaps we would have won. Those fixtures should have derailed most teams but we got through them so something had to give, in the end that's the FA Cup, am I happy (No I want to win every game we play) is it justified, yes if it gives Liverpool the space to allow players rest and allows our players to come back ready for what will still be a heavy fixture list from March onwards.

For me the league is the thing we need to win, we are in our best position for some years, we will likely go to Brighton with one fit CB due to the cup, doesn't that to you justify squad rotation.
 
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Barnestormer

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^^^^^ No quite, but team selection, past team selections and Klopp's record in the FA cup are a concern. It would be fair to say the gaffer does not rate this tournament or take it seriously enough.
 

mattyhurst

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When we have a squad perhaps, but even the teams of Shanks day didn't have the behemoth of what the CL is today and mostly didn't have it at all. If we win the title then I may think differently next year but for me that's what Liverpool need to win amongst anything else.
 

jaffod

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That is utterly absurd, and a complete knee jerk reaction.

We’ve no business expecting to beat Wolves with ten changes to the team. The problem last night wasn’t the squad depth, it was the fact that we rotated everything at the same time.

Moreno is can come in for Robertson every now and then when he needs a rest. Trent can drop out for Gomez or Milner. Origi or Sturridge can drop in for one of the forwards.

We can do any of those changes, and probably be fine. Do them all at the same time, and then through four kids in the mix as well, and we’re not.

I'm not knee-jerking to anything because I clearly stated before the match I wanted us to get knocked out. I didn't expect us to win nor did I want us to win. What I did want was a team of fringe and youth players and nobody who we could ill afford to lose. JK said Lovren would be on the bench but he had to play him because Hendo and Lallana pulled out....I've had over 12 hours to ponder on that one and I'm still no nearer to working it out.
You're right, Moreno can come in for Robertson. You could play Sturridge, Lallana or Mignolet there as well and they'd be equally shit. Moreno should have been run out of this club after the EL final in 2016 and the fact he is still here is nothing short of lunacy.
Gomez isn't a RB and gets caught out too often when he plays there. If he's fit he should play CB and nowhere else.
Origi is now the only cover we have for the front 3 who can be relied on to start and finish a game. Sturridge looks like he's added a bad attitude to his other ailments and I don't want to see him in a Liverpool shirt again and I'm saying that as someone who has been a big fan of his ever since he signed.
Right now the strong squad we all thought we had looks close to breaking point whether you want to admit it or not. We've just lost Clyne and Solanke. No proper cover at full back on either side, just players who can fill in there. 3 out of 4 CB's who are injury prone. In midfield we have Henderson and Milner who both look to be carrying injuries, Keita showing nothing and Fabinho more than likely getting shuttled around the back 4 for the next couple of weeks. Lallana is a fucking waste of space.
Right now the season could go either way, if we can get everyone fit and replace the 2 we've lost then we should be ok, fail to bring anyone in and we run the risk of a repeat of last season where we could barely field a team in some matches and most of them were running on empty.
 

LeoT

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Joined
Jan 23, 2008
Messages
2,305
I went through the players in the MOtM poll, but found myself saying

Can't be him, he screwed up for the first goal...
Can't be him, cos he just stood there half the game
Can't be him, cos he constantly over-played then gave the ball away...

Shaq gets it cos he didn't totally screw up like most of the others.
 

Red over the water

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Messages
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I don't think there is anyone better than JK for us. He is a perfect fit. I desperately want him to win something though.....boring, boring cliche I know but true all the same.... winning is a habit and once he gets one...no matter what it is.. . I think we will get more...I don't want him having that pressure and it will only get worse if he doesn't win something this season. For a club of our stature I do think another second place and no CL win will be failure...but not a sacking offense. That would be crazy.

I want him to be regarded by future generations as a "legend" like Shanks, Paisley, Fagan and Kenny but no matter how much we love him that can't happen without trophies coming his way. You don't get legend status for being a great guy..
Thanks for replying. Solid answer!

I really want a trophy ASAP too. I just wanted to make sure we weren’t ratcheting up the pressure on Jurgen... win this, or else! Perhaps at some point it will come to that, but I agree with you he’s perfect for us.

Like all reds I hope in years to come his image is on flags on the Kop because he led us to 19, 20, 21 and 6, 7...

We are getting closer, and maybe this is the season we bring that league title back.
 

Lowton_Red

No football club is successful without hard work.
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I really don't get all the gloom and doom. It's not as though we were playing a team in the relegation zone of the Championship, or one in League 1 or 2 of the Football League e.g. as was the case for all the other top six clubs.

We were away to Wolves, a decent team, a team in the top half of the Premier League. Last month they beat cheatski 2 - 1 in the PL, lest we forget.

Fair enough, we played a weakened team; but we have to focus on the League, and the Champion's League. They must be our priorities.

We only had one fit CB, Lovren (for all of 5 minutes). Robbo and TAA were due a rest. Likewise Sadio, Mo and Bob. Hendo had a knock, as did Lallana (again). And if we didn't play the likes of Mignolet, Moreno, Studge, Origi in this game, when would they play?

Certainly, a number of senior players failed to step up to the mark e.g. Mignolet, Moreno, Studge, Origi, Shaqiri, Keita (I won't include Milner as he was knackered and only played because of the lack of options). That they were collectively so poor is disappointing but hardly a matter of great concern. I doubt we will ever see them all on the pitch at the same time again.

Should we have risked our (remaining fit) big guns and run the risk that they might break down, thereby jeopardising our chances in the league? To my mind, obviously not.

So, we are out of the sweet Fanny Adams cup; big deal; we have bigger fish to fry.

Onwards and upwards, we go again.
 

jaffod

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Should we have risked our (remaining fit) big guns and run the risk that they might break down, thereby jeopardising our chances in the league? To my mind, obviously not.
It should be all or nothing. The team we fielded was makeshift and there was a good chance we'd get knocked out by a strong Wolves team. So we risked Lovren in a game Klopp knew we'd possibly lose.
We ended up getting knocked out and we ended up losing Lovren. Either play a full strength team with intent to win or play kids and fringe players and risk getting beat.
 

Prolix

Long Time Nemesis™
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I did think some of the players who started today approached this match in an arrogant manner the way their body language looked.
What does arrogant body language look like? So I know what to keep an eye out for in the future.
 

Flobs

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Depth? Once Lovren went off the only fit centre back we had was Virgil who was being rested. That’s 3 out of our 4 senior centre backs out injured. That’s not down to a lack of depth
I wondered if letting Klavan go would jump up and bite our arse at some point. I suppose a loss in FA cup isn't that painful. We do need to ensure that our players stay fit mind.
 

Ben64

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City. Take out Fernandinho/ D.Silva and they are a different team. In every team you will have some players who are ‘ irreplaceable’. Pls stop going on and on about strength in depth. Come on. Reading into this FA cup game will achieve nothing much except that those Pool players who did not try, esp fringe seasoned campaigners on high wages, should fk off. If you wear the shirt, pls play your arse out. That is personal strength in depth, which is what we need in all to win EPL. Holy grail.
 

Limiescouse

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Dismissing it to that level though... puts a massive onus on it now to actually win one of those two. Not exactly an easy ask.
Doing the right thing is right regardless of whether the ultimate outcome is as desired.

As for the game, to me it is more disappointing the performances of the fringe guys than the result per se. I don’t mind losing and going out in a competition I haven’t given a shit about for over a decade. I don’t like losing in a way that suggests our fringe guys have less of a role to play moving forward.

On another note though, their first goal was offside. I am kind of stunned it got not reaction or coverage. The lad who won the ball back then ran down the middle was ahead of the guy on the ball for about 30 yards. And in his run, he clearly purposefully positioned himself to prevent Millner getting over to close down the guy with the ball.
 

lfc.eddie

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Anyone satisifed seeing away supporters singing about them beating us or knocking us out of the cup, has got some issues.
I agree.... if it was at Anfield I would expect us to win. :well done:
 

AussieLad

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I went through the players in the MOtM poll, but found myself saying

Can't be him, he screwed up for the first goal...
Can't be him, cos he just stood there half the game
Can't be him, cos he constantly over-played then gave the ball away...

Shaq gets it cos he didn't totally screw up like most of the others.
That is a fair assessment process, but I do disagree with the outcome. In my view, using those parameters it must then go to Hoever - the kid exuded confidence and calmness despite being thrown in at only 16 and more than held his own.
 

LFC-Orlando

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Anyone satisifed seeing away supporters singing about them beating us or knocking us out of the cup, has got some issues. Yeah I get the bigger picture, but surely a team like Liverpool plays to win. Efforts like last night can have no postive outcome.

Save us the embarrassment LFC and ditch the cup comps. At least announce you will play the reserves so people won't be arsed tuning in.

I am well past caring about it this morning, but nothing changes my opinion that that was a disgrace last night. Small part of me would be happy to see Klopp win fuck all...... I'll probably get over that an' all.
That's exactly what we did. We ditched it and we told people we would.
You don't expect a formal withdrawal right? Cause you said that in another post.
 

Wilkored08

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Well after last night, time to compose. When I saw the team, I had an idea that we wouldn't win this game...very disappointed at Studge and Origi (although he did score) Milly struggled to take charge but he did have to cover 2 or 3 different positions. All in all, we should be in the FA Cup but its not to be....so as we all have a good idea what we are aiming for...let's get on with it...get behind the team....(still not sure why Virg was not there at all, other than slight injury)...Cmon boys onwards and upwards...
 

1dragon

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I see it differently from many on here. Going deep in cups can be beneficial to developing youth and keeping the fringe players fresh and ready for rotation. If we get knocked out at the first time of asking all the time, where can the likes of Moreno, Origi (or future replacements) hone their match fitness? Consequently, they then perform worse every time they step onto the pitch.

It is also unfair that Klopp pairs all the second stringers together. How do you expect the group to perform as well as the first choice players, if they are not afforded the same quality team mates? Again, I can understand why some of them look disinterested in playing. It almost seems that these players have accepted that this match is as good as gone, and they will still be second choice come end of the day.

However, I would say there are mitigating circumstances this season, namely, facing such tough opponents early in the cups.

Looking forward, I think it would be easier to attract good quality rotation options if we can maintain deeper runs in the cups. If we want to attract the likes of Timo Werner and Adrien Rabiot, then we should treat the cups seriously.
 



redalways

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I think when the emotion over the result settles down, both the performance and indeed the result would seem rather inevitable. To me, there were 3 takeaways from that game, namely circumstances, Jurgen, and Mignolet.

Firstly, when we look at circumstances, the resulting team in personnel was inevitable. I don't think the approach to the game with regards to personnel was wrong, since the FA Cup was always going to be a second priority for us. The team would therefore comprise the players who don't usually get a look in, or play less often in the Champions League and the league. A clear model for this was our League Cup game against Chelsea, where the starting lineup was Mignolet, Clyne, Matip, Lovren, Moreno, Milner, Fabinho, Keita, Shaqiri, Sturridge, and Mane. Out of those, maybe Milner and Mane could be shouts for regular starters in the more important matches, while the rest are comfortably squad status. What's changed between then and now is obviously our injury list.

While Matip and Lovren played in the League Cup match, it was mainly because Gomez and Virgil were our starters. Now, Gomez and Matip are injured, while Virgil was rested/not fit for this match. Our main choice would therefore seem to be fragile Lovren and Fabinho, as the next best suited players. A further point is also that most of our youth centre-backs in (correct me if I'm wrong) Masterson, Johnston, and Phillips are out injured as well, which necessitates the use of Fabinho. Now if reports are to be believed, Henderson was set to play as a centre-back in place of Lovren, but he himself had a knock. As much as I admire Wijnaldum, risking him would have been foolish. My main quibble would perhaps be starting Hoever instead, but the pressure of a starting role may have been too much for him.

On the full-backs side, Moreno started as was to be expected, while Camacho had to be played as a combination of multiple factors. Firstly, there are clubs circling around him ready to pounce, while he's a bright enough prospect for us to want to keep him around and happy. Secondly, while Clyne has been really good, the Camacho factor, combined with Alexander-Arnold's continued growth means that he would be unlikely to see many games, and since he wants to play regularly, an exit was probably the best for all parties. Now, since Gomez is injured, and Alexander-Arnold should surely not be risked especially given his recent recovery from injury and the intensive City match, Camacho was really our only option.

On to the midfield, where we really were short on possibilities. Following on from the list of centre-midfielders left, it was inevitable that Milner and Keita would play. Fabinho wouldn't have been an option, and Lallana, I think is just no longer reliable fitness-wise. Shaqiri and Curtis Jones were pretty much the only alternatives, since Origi and Sturridge would be starting, and we wouldn't want to risk our front three starting.

With that in mind, the most obvious choice for a defensive midfielder in that context would be Milner, and he simply doesn't have the pace for it. Coupled with what we obviously felt was a need to protect Hoever, resulting in Milner playing almost as a centre-back, it's quite unsurprising that with only Keita as the man to shuffle the ball up the field, our play became a lot more disjointed.

Here's where I think the manager may have made a mistake. Through most of the game, it seemed like we were quite disjointed in movement, especially since it seems as though we haven't played in this shape so far this season. The players seemed unsure where they should be moving, resulting in very static play, even though we had the lion's share of possession at some points. Unless I'm mistaken, we mostly had a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-3-3 through most of the season thus far, while in this match we had more of a 4-4-2. I believe sticking to one of the more familiar formations would have been better for the team, since they would have trained with that, even if it means shoehorning some into more unfamiliar positions. Shaqiri should have been played closer to the midfield to help Keita in bringing the ball forward, with Jones and Sturridge/Origi taking up the wing positions. Once Salah and Firmino came on however, there was a lot more dynamism in the play afforded by the extra pace (since Sturridge basically has almost none right now, while the three youngsters didn't seem particularly fast), and the fact that Firmino is much more effective carrying the ball forward. Hoever also seemed to grow into the game, leaving Milner more opportunity to stray a little further forward.

In all, considering we played rather well at least defensively, and with the players playing in rather novel roles, I don't think we can read too much into individual performances. If not for Milner's mistake and a rather good goal by Neves, the narrative would probably have been how we managed to grind out a win even with second-string and youth players. Individual performances weren't really illuminating. Moreno displayed nothing new, and nothing close to his performances of last season, although he didn't have much of midfield cover his way. Jones, Keita, Shaqiri, and Sturridge were all too isolated, while Origi often seemed confused as to what he should be doing, despite his great goal. The youth players acquitted themselves pretty well, and while Fabinho looked awkward at times, he and Hoever did grow into the game together. Sturridge isn't up to games like this, which are often won on hustle, just as he wasn't up to the Napoli away game. His type of game now seems to be limited to those where other players can provide the energy and hustle, while he utilises his technical skill and intelligence to create something. It's not anything new, just confirming what we knew already, and nothing worth the hyperbolic vitriol that's been flung his way, with comments like how he should just leave the club right now. He's worth a new contract, but definitely with much more performance-oriented clauses rather than the current high base pay he's receiving. Origi needs to spend a lot more time with Firmino, and Moreno simply needs to learn how to be consistent.

Mignolet however, I do not see the point of retaining. While it wasn't a bad performance by any means, especially given the standards we have come to expect from him, I don't think it's worth having him play matches like these, when we should give the likes of Kelleher some time to try to grow a role in the team. He's turning 31, and has shown his limitations amply through the years, and more importantly, doesn't fit us stylistically. One of the things I thought people missed a lot when discussing Karius and last season, is that Karius, like Alisson, plays a lot further forward, making himself better available for passes, and to pass the ball on. Mignolet tends to have much poorer positioning in that respect, drawing the defensive line a lot closer to him, and causing gaps to form in our midfield. This was exacerbated in this match by Milner hanging back to protect Hoever, and I felt, an important factor in why our attacking play was so poor. He's probably the only player from the match I would really say has no future left at this club, given how reliable/consistent Alisson seems to be, and how much he worsens our play. Comparatively, the likes of Moreno and Sturridge, while limited, don't affect our overall team play as much.

Either way, I don't expect this match to affect the next too much, except perhaps with how well the youngsters played, and how much of an option they can offer.
 

Magnus

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Do City get a bye straight into the final for putting seven past Rotherham? Whether they beat them by one or ten is irrelevant.

Pep could have made more changes and still comfortably beaten Rotherham. His team selection had nothing to do with respecting the tournament, and everything to do with worrying about consistency and fluidity in his team.
People also forget that Manchester City is the pet project of a sheik and minister in filthy rich Arab dictatorship. Pep has been swimming in money like Scrooge McDuck, and no other team in the league has as much quality cover like Manchester City has. We have 'normal' owners. Good owners, but normal ones. No one can expect that we will have redundant quality on the level on Manchester City. To expect it is unreasonable.
 

Semmy

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We'd need the worst run of luck in the history of football to be forced into that amount of changes in the league.
Looked at our CB situation this morning week? Hope Fab likes playing CB


Can’t obviously predict that but flopping out of FA cup vs Wolves shouldn’t require excuses of having to play kids. Why ship Clyne off on a Friday to play a 16yo and Moreno on Monday?

We could have put forth a stronger side than we did without jeopardizing the league. CL isn’t til Feb, and we now only have 3-4 matches for rest of the month.

I don’t really understand the thought process behind it, he had to know Wolves would give us a game at home
 

FGred

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Jan 10, 2015
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3,101
We'd need the worst run of luck in the history of football to be forced into that amount of changes in the league.
Our bad luck in January so far has been diabolical, we had 5 CHs and now there is only one left fit VVD and he has been sick apparently. I suggested before Christmas that we needed to buy another CH and I was told there’s is plenty of cover. In midfield we had plenty of cover but Hendo is slightly injured, Gini is OK but knackered, Keita hmm no ready yet, Milly knackered, Lallana injured/Sick?, Fabinho is now likely to be our stand-in CH come Rightback?