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Post Match: Young Boys 3-5 LFC

Zinedine Biscan

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I liked what I saw of Assaidi, I think he will be starting Prem games soon, but I couldn't say whether he'll get his league debut against United. I would expect Sterling and either Suarez or Borini being the 'wide' options up top (with the other of those two playing centrally).
 


Doggie

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- I had a special look at Downing's behaviour on the pitch (something which can't be told when looking at a match on TV), and all I can say now after having witnessed one of his performances first-hand, is that this guy is an abject failure and a coward. He has talent, pace and as a matter of fact, everything to make a great winger, but he lacks the elementary willingness to make runs, to present himself in order for a team-mate to give him the ball. He hides more often than not. Here and then, he'd pop up with a good cross or a run, but 95% of the time, he was just hiding. I'm really happy that Sterling is about to reveal himself as a useful player for us, because Downing is a liability, nothing else. His failure is a mental one: he lacks fighting spirit, and the willingness to run for his team-mates.
I think you have nailed it here.

In the first half Downing saw a lot of the ball, but just didn't really seem to be able to do anything meaningful with it.

By the second half, this is exactly what I thought too - the guy was hiding. When he got the ball, it was like, oh no, they've passed it to me again.

I despair with Downing, you just know he can do better, we've seen it. I think he has the same condition as Joe Cole however - they just want to collect their pay cheques and do as little as possible.
 

redbj

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So what has Gerrard done to warrant being ahead of Shelvey, which is really the point being debated here?

It isn't Gerrard/Lucas, much as you would like it to be.

Perhaps in my original post I should have elaborated on it to say that Lucas was there as the ONLY DM we have at the club, but to be honest I thought that point was so obvious it didn't need stating.
i think the point is more what has shelvey done to be ahead of gerrard? i didnt see the 2 goal cameo, but it takes a bit more than that to replace someone with gerrards experience, especially where we find ourselves placed in the league right now.

the second point ill just rise above, im quite sure you dont mean it to be as insulting as it sounds.

the third point is a cracker though, and it opens up a whole new debate alltogether.....and that is, do we really need an out and out defensive midfielder in out team?, especially with the role that allen seems to fulfill, im not saying we dont need one at the club, but in the team as a defualt option, i debate it, so it becomes less 'obvious' in that way.
 

shachart

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during last season and the summer, i have expressed my doubts about shelvy.
i admit now before all those who bashed me that i was wrong ( very big of me, if i may say so myself ).
not because of the goals or what he did, last night you could just see he was actually a class above the rest, and there is much more to come.

i think wisdom and coates will start giving skrtel and agger a fight for their place ( mainly coates ).

Hendo did really well organising the midfield, and assuming the role of a playmaker. but he neglected to defensive duties, and left huge gaps between the midfield and the back four, which were exploited all to many times. did well, but as a senior player ( very young, but he is senior ) never looked like there is much more to him.

great result, sad it is nothing to build on ahead of sundays match.
 

Zinedine Biscan

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i think the point is more what has shelvey done to be ahead of gerrard? i didnt see the 2 goal cameo, but it takes a bit more than that to replace someone with gerrards experience, especially where we find ourselves placed in the league right now.

the second point ill just rise above, im quite sure you dont mean it to be as insulting as it sounds.

the third point is a cracker though, and it opens up a whole new debate alltogether.....and that is, do we really need an out and out defensive midfielder in out team?, especially with the role that allen seems to fulfill, im not saying we dont need one at the club, but in the team as a defualt option, i debate it, so it becomes less 'obvious' in that way.
Ok let's drop the main thing, I think it's just a misunderstanding anyway due to some of my thought-processes not making it into the post and it's certainly not worth a row.

If the question is, do we need a traditional DM as we see it in this country - a destroyer-type like Masch or before him Didi - then I would say probably not. With three central midfielders, especially with Allen in there, who is a solid player in his own right, then that role is more or less redundant.

However, I don't see Lucas as that sort of player. When he plays, he will be the one sitting the deepest of the three and breaking up play, but in his particular case he is also very good at keeping - and recycling - possession, qualities which are essential in a Rodgers-style DM.

We also seem to play a system where the full-backs push up, and the CBs drift wide to cover a greater area at the back (when we have possession, at least), and you will see Lucas (or, since injury, Allen) drop back even further to almost act as a third CB right in the centre... for me that means the player in that deep midfield role does also need to be strong defensively, otherwise we are vulnerable to through-balls and quick counter-attacks.

Lucas is almost unique, for me, in that he combines defensive steel with a more intelligent possession-based game, and he will be a key player for us, even if his role is no longer a traditional DM. I'm absolutely gutted he got injured again.

In terms of buying backup for him, the type of player would be more along the lines of Allen than a more out-and-out DM like, say, Lass Diarra or someone like that.

I guess what I'm saying is, we don't need someone in the 'Makelele role', but we desperately need someone in the 'Lucas role'.
 



costared

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It's all about opinions isn't it. I often agree with ZB but not on this occasion.Lucas does not "fill the hole" in front of the CB's any better than Allen and certainly no better than Stevie G does for England. Lucas is a good player but in the current squad he is just another player that can play DM. Not unique, not special, although I will admit he was excellent against City last season.
If we continue to throw both full backs forward carelessly we need a DM to ensure we do not get 1v1 on our CB's like we did v WBA and on other occasions. I am not saying Lucas cannot do that, just that he has not done so yet. Our best DM would be Stevie G as he is the strongest ball winner,best in the air and best passer of the ball from defensive positions.
 

norwegian wood

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I must be the only one but i thought hendo was quite poor. Didnt move or shape to make the right angles to develope the play out from the back. He preferred to abdicate responsability to the fullbacks and let them deal with it. This is def not his position.
I don't think he was poor - quite the opposite actually - but I very much agree with you on this part. Good observation. There were quite a few times when Jordan started to move up the pitch, leaving Coates/Wisdom to themselves without a good passing option. Probably something he has to learn because he hasn't played in a team that builds attacks like this before. Both Allen and Sahin are very good at this, so I expect our other midfielders will learn from them eventually.
 

redbj

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Ok let's drop the main thing, I think it's just a misunderstanding anyway due to some of my thought-processes not making it into the post and it's certainly not worth a row.

If the question is, do we need a traditional DM as we see it in this country - a destroyer-type like Masch or before him Didi - then I would say probably not. With three central midfielders, especially with Allen in there, who is a solid player in his own right, then that role is more or less redundant.

However, I don't see Lucas as that sort of player. When he plays, he will be the one sitting the deepest of the three and breaking up play, but in his particular case he is also very good at keeping - and recycling - possession, qualities which are essential in a Rodgers-style DM.

We also seem to play a system where the full-backs push up, and the CBs drift wide to cover a greater area at the back (when we have possession, at least), and you will see Lucas (or, since injury, Allen) drop back even further to almost act as a third CB right in the centre... for me that means the player in that deep midfield role does also need to be strong defensively, otherwise we are vulnerable to through-balls and quick counter-attacks.

Lucas is almost unique, for me, in that he combines defensive steel with a more intelligent possession-based game, and he will be a key player for us, even if his role is no longer a traditional DM. I'm absolutely gutted he got injured again.

In terms of buying backup for him, the type of player would be more along the lines of Allen than a more out-and-out DM like, say, Lass Diarra or someone like that.

I guess what I'm saying is, we don't need someone in the 'Makelele role', but we desperately need someone in the 'Lucas role'.
cheers, although i am one of the last remaining few who seem to think lucas is not a nailed on legend who could walk straight into the team. i do see his qualities, but think, say, against a team like sunderland at home(or even away once we start to get traction), we dont need allen and lucas both recycling the ball adinfinitim......i think lucas would be asked to expand his game from what it has become.

failing to leave the whole debate behind completely, i think gerrard still is very important, despite the trend that he 'doesnt fit rodgers system', i think thats an actual bonus, after all, if rodgers is so rigid in his system that he cant accomadate and make the most of a player of gerrards ilk, then thats a failure on his behalf in my mind....not saying gerrard shuld dictate the way we play, more along the lines of, you dont buy players of gerrards quality with our budget, to simply discard him is folly.(opinion).

not popular, but its still relevant.
 

Zinedine Biscan

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cheers, although i am one of the last remaining few who seem to think lucas is not a nailed on legend who could walk straight into the team. i do see his qualities, but think, say, against a team like sunderland at home(or even away once we start to get traction), we dont need allen and lucas both recycling the ball adinfinitim......i think lucas would be asked to expand his game from what it has become.

failing to leave the whole debate behind completely, i think gerrard still is very important, despite the trend that he 'doesnt fit rodgers system', i think thats an actual bonus, after all, if rodgers is so rigid in his system that he cant accomadate and make the most of a player of gerrards ilk, then thats a failure on his behalf in my mind....not saying gerrard shuld dictate the way we play, more along the lines of, you dont buy players of gerrards quality with our budget, to simply discard him is folly.(opinion).

not popular, but its still relevant.
I'm definitely not in the 'bin Gerrard camp' (if such a thing actually exists), but I do think taking his age into account, the number of injuries he's had and the swashbuckling (and therefore physically draining) style he has played for us means he can no longer play two games a week and be at his best both games. Hopefully having a rest last night will mean he's on top form against United.

With that in mind, it's great we now have a young player (Shelvey) who can step into Gerrard's position and be an asset, it's something we could have used more of down the years.
 

Arminius

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As for Jones, he looked so unsecure out there... my opinion is that he should never play for LFC again, as he simply lacks the necessary quality to play for the Reds. He seems to be a likeable guy, but that isn't enough unfortunately. Playing for a top club requires talent, which he is completely deprived from. I'd rather go with Gulasci as second keeper if Doni isn't available (where the hell has that lad disappeared?... scratching my head about this... is he injured or what?)
Have to disagree with you about Jones, I thought he looked far better than last season. Given the way his entire left side defence looked prone to disappearing completely or gifting the ball to an opponent, I am not surprised he looked nervous. In order, I would say the worst performers were Enrique, Carragher, Downing - which meant that once the ball went out wide on our left like as not it was coming into the box.

- I had a special look at Downing's behaviour on the pitch (something which can't be told when looking at a match on TV), and all I can say now after having witnessed one of his performances first-hand, is that this guy is an abject failure and a coward. He has talent, pace and as a matter of fact, everything to make a great winger, but he lacks the elementary willingness to make runs, to present himself in order for a team-mate to give him the ball. He hides more often than not. Here and then, he'd pop up with a good cross or a run, but 95% of the time, he was just hiding. I'm really happy that Sterling is about to reveal himself as a useful player for us, because Downing is a liability, nothing else. His failure is a mental one: he lacks fighting spirit, and the willingness to run for his team-mates.
I think you have absolutely nailed it on Downing. You can see some of that TV, I'd probably want to come out of the stands if I saw as much of it as you did.
 



1dragon

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@costared

while in theory, gerrard has more pace, power and tackling ability compared to lucas and allen, he is ill suited to the deep lying play maker role. The reasons have been debated to death in past threads and the one thing most of us agree is Gerrard's lack of tactical discipline. Playing him in such a role will restrict his forward movements and never have i seen Gerrard not attempt a run forward to just outside the penalty area. He does it for England as well.

Coupled with his character, which i loosly reference it to "Tony Stark" in the avengers movie, it is hard for him to thrive there and allow his team mates to do a job.
 

wembley 65

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jonjo will be nother stevie g, you can tell he is the great mans understudy, coates is a great young centre back who should now move above carra in the pecking order, liked the look of sahin and think he will be much better in the full strength team, but the star of the show for me was henderson, really assured and a good eye for a pass, in the next couple of year him and shelvey will be our regular centre mid, and a special mention for raheem, just gets better and better, a nail on for the young player of the season.............................
 

MarlboroMan

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@costared

while in theory, gerrard has more pace, power and tackling ability compared to lucas and allen, he is ill suited to the deep lying play maker role. The reasons have been debated to death in past threads and the one thing most of us agree is Gerrard's lack of tactical discipline. Playing him in such a role will restrict his forward movements and never have i seen Gerrard not attempt a run forward to just outside the penalty area. He does it for England as well.

Coupled with his character, which i loosly reference it to "Tony Stark" in the avengers movie, it is hard for him to thrive there and allow his team mates to do a job.
Right on I feel the same way too. Besides what is costared trying to say, that Gerrard is a better DM than Lucas?

First off Gerrard is not a better ball winner than Lucas, he does it with more style but he can't compete when it comes to the amount of tackles that Lucas makes. The way I see it is Gerrard often makes these great sliding tackles because he is out of position while Lucas makes simple tackles that because he is where he needs to be earlier than Stevie.

Gerrard used to be the much better athlete which might have made him a great DM but he is lost a few yards of pace these last few seasons so I'd say that they are quite equal there. Heading? You do realize that Lucas wins a more headers in midfield than Gerrard does, again Gerrard makes the memorable ones but Lucas makes more of them.
 

legalalien

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I'm definitely not in the 'bin Gerrard camp' (if such a thing actually exists), but I do think taking his age into account, the number of injuries he's had and the swashbuckling (and therefore physically draining) style he has played for us means he can no longer play two games a week and be at his best both games. Hopefully having a rest last night will mean he's on top form against United.

With that in mind, it's great we now have a young player (Shelvey) who can step into Gerrard's position and be an asset, it's something we could have used more of down the years.
I've said it before and here I am saying it again, if Gerrard doesn't 'fit' BR's midfield system then put him on the right of the front three. That still gives us 5, when all fit, midfielders to choose from to move the ball around and pass it forward accurately to the front three.

I'll admit that, because of kick-off times and me being 8 hours ahead of the UK atm, I've only seen two games so far this season so if what I'm saying is bollocks then fair enough. But based on what I know of Stevie's style of play, it does seem to me that he would be better off on the right as he probably wouldn't have to run around as much and could save his energy for bursting into the box and doing what he and we all love. No, not that. I mean shooting at the goal and scoring now and then.
 



Hope in your heart

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Have to disagree with you about Jones, I thought he looked far better than last season. Given the way his entire left side defence looked prone to disappearing completely or gifting the ball to an opponent, I am not surprised he looked nervous. In order, I would say the worst performers were Enrique, Carragher, Downing - which meant that once the ball went out wide on our left like as not it was coming into the box.

(...)
Well, I know that he's probably a bit out of match fitness, but yesterday, he never looked assured, he never seemed to give his defenders the necessary feeling of security, and the way he behaved on YB's first goal was an absolute meal. Enrique is first responsible for this, but it was clear to see that he hesitated to play the ball directly towards Jones because Brad wasn't positioned very well and didn't exude enough confidence. So, he tried first to play himself out of it, and then to kick it away (badly). The result was a soft goal conceded.

That's just an example, but there were other similar situations. He didn't look confident, and that rubbed off on his team-mates. We conceded three goals for a reason, and after each of them (bar maybe the third), I found myself thinking that Reina would have found a way to clear the mess.

I agree with you that Carra and co. weren't making life easy for him, but the contrary applies as well.
 

boogieonalice

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fantastic result, if not a shaky performance...

it's scary to think how we will play if rogers keeps this core group of youngsters. in just 3 or 4 years.... wow
 

1988greatestteam

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The more i see of our future midfield - Allen, Shelvey, Henderson, Suso, Lucas and hopefully even Sahin, the more i'm starting to worry that unless Gerrard starts being played some sort of advanced "in the pocket" role, or as striker, that he could start getting in the way of those other players (and in the way of our actual progress given his dip in form!).
He just seems a bit jaded after trying to carry England in the summer as well. He is one of our truly world class players, and he will be the glue for this young emerging team. It looks likely we wont have to play him in every game thank god, Jonjo is coming on a treat, and has glimpses of Gerrard's power, maybe 40 plus games instead of the 50 plus. Just wish Stevie would retire from internationals, we could get a great return from him, the way the mancs have from Scholes.
 

shachart

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Ok let's drop the main thing, I think it's just a misunderstanding anyway due to some of my thought-processes not making it into the post and it's certainly not worth a row.

If the question is, do we need a traditional DM as we see it in this country - a destroyer-type like Masch or before him Didi - then I would say probably not. With three central midfielders, especially with Allen in there, who is a solid player in his own right, then that role is more or less redundant.

However, I don't see Lucas as that sort of player. When he plays, he will be the one sitting the deepest of the three and breaking up play, but in his particular case he is also very good at keeping - and recycling - possession, qualities which are essential in a Rodgers-style DM.

We also seem to play a system where the full-backs push up, and the CBs drift wide to cover a greater area at the back (when we have possession, at least), and you will see Lucas (or, since injury, Allen) drop back even further to almost act as a third CB right in the centre... for me that means the player in that deep midfield role does also need to be strong defensively, otherwise we are vulnerable to through-balls and quick counter-attacks.

Lucas is almost unique, for me, in that he combines defensive steel with a more intelligent possession-based game, and he will be a key player for us, even if his role is no longer a traditional DM. I'm absolutely gutted he got injured again.

In terms of buying backup for him, the type of player would be more along the lines of Allen than a more out-and-out DM like, say, Lass Diarra or someone like that.

I guess what I'm saying is, we don't need someone in the 'Makelele role', but we desperately need someone in the 'Lucas role'.
if you take a good look at teams that don't play with a classical DM, but with centeral midfielders, you will see their centre-half are very capable passers, and they assist the midfield in pushing the ball forward. unfortunatly neither skrtel nor agger hold those capabilities. they either make a short pass to a midfielder that comes to get the ball, pass it back/sideways or my favorite hoof it upfield.
 

WrinkledMind

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Didn't see the game.From what I heard Hendo had a good game.Happy to hear that.He is in some ways similar to Lucas, though Lucas has a way better understanding of the game while Hendo's ball control is way better than Lucas.

Nice to hear that BR had good words to say about Suso.
Been saying that for ages that Shelvey can be Stevie's replacement.Hehas it in him to be a wonderful AM.
 



EdWood

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if you take a good look at teams that don't play with a classical DM, but with centeral midfielders, you will see their centre-half are very capable passers, and they assist the midfield in pushing the ball forward. unfortunatly neither skrtel nor agger hold those capabilities. they either make a short pass to a midfielder that comes to get the ball, pass it back/sideways or my favorite hoof it upfield.
Beg to differ there; Dagger is a good passer and is very comfortable on the ball. He is the very model of a ball-playing CB in fact; he could even play the DM role if required but I hope he never has to as he'd be having to get stuck in a lot more and the less physical tussles he has to endure the better as far as I'm concerned, given his injury record.
 

The Elusive 19th

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and a special mention for raheem, just gets better and better, a nail on for the young player of the season.............................
He even has a chance at becoming the player of the season if he continues to improve. I dont think a lot many will dis-agree.
 

Sam Wanjere

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Pity our older players, bar Jones, had to mar this game somewhat.

Creativity from Suso, midfield generalmanship from Sahin, liveliness and adventure from Assaidi, a veteran's performance from Wisdom (good too for the U21s), nuisance factor from Borini, arrogant swag from Shelvey, deceptively simple football from Hendo (good ball skills, no over elaboration of play like Allen; more vocal now and I'm glad he's turning into a leader), composure from Coates (beast in the making).

Not as impressed with Carra and Enrique's error strewn performance. Lenient refereeing bailed us out on the latter.

Nervy game but good team spirit. Wisdom and Coates' goals came after two and four minutes respectively, of conceding. We built on the Sunderland performance. Shelvey's movement is improving, and two goals with either feet is pretty good. Not to forget Henderson who was involved in both, first passing for Shelvey's finish after Borini's run on the left, then giving the ball for Shelvey to run with and score no. 5.

We have more depth than most of us know and a remarkable crop of youngsters. We can always improve, starting with our D but a satisfying result all round. Let it not be forgotten Young Boys returned a side that stunned Spurs last year, with much more experience compared to BRs side. The future is both safe and very Red.
 

TippRed

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Didn't see the game.From what I heard Hendo had a good game.Happy to hear that.He is in some ways similar to Lucas, though Lucas has a way better understanding of the game while Hendo's ball control is way better than Lucas.

Nice to hear that BR had good words to say about Suso.
Been saying that for ages that Shelvey can be Stevie's replacement.Hehas it in him to be a wonderful AM.
why what did he say about Suso?
 



OhYaBeauty

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cheers, although i am one of the last remaining few who seem to think lucas is not a nailed on legend who could walk straight into the team. i do see his qualities, but think, say, against a team like sunderland at home(or even away once we start to get traction), we dont need allen and lucas both recycling the ball adinfinitim......i think lucas would be asked to expand his game from what it has become.
The thing is, though, they both play differently when together. Lucas distributes the ball forward off the defense like last year, but although Allen seems to be level with him, he plays a very different game. In theory (and in practice going on the few games they've played together) Allen moves around the midfield to always be in the perfect place for an outlet pass from the front four and the wingbacks. Lucas stays back and shields. Allen becomes the facilitator of our midfield and moves the ball to the dribblers and scorers a la Xavi and Lucas sits back and plays Busquets' role.

I've said it before and here I am saying it again, if Gerrard doesn't 'fit' BR's midfield system then put him on the right of the front three. That still gives us 5, when all fit, midfielders to choose from to move the ball around and pass it forward accurately to the front three.
In August I would have argued with you that Gerrard should be our attacking midfielder and that, beyond that, he'd never want to play on the front three. Now, with the emergence of Shelvey, Gerrard's perceived failure to fit our style of play in midfield, and our thin forward ranks, I'm begging for this to happen. He's got all the tools to do it, he doesn't belong in the midfield and we need him up top. Hopefully this happens, but I doubt it will.

if you take a good look at teams that don't play with a classical DM, but with centeral midfielders, you will see their centre-half are very capable passers, and they assist the midfield in pushing the ball forward. unfortunatly neither skrtel nor agger hold those capabilities. they either make a short pass to a midfielder that comes to get the ball, pass it back/sideways or my favorite hoof it upfield.
You're right. They're both idiots on the ball. I've never seen Agger dribble out of defence and play a pass through to the forwards or attacking midfielder, or continue on and have a go from long range. I wish he would add that to his game. And I've never seen Skrtel do it in Agger's absence either.

Oh wait, that's exactly what Agger does. He moves the ball out of defense on his own. He finds himself in the attacking third. He passes to attackers. And last year at times when Agger was out Skrtel actually made the same kinds of runs. They're both very accomplished players on the ball, and neither of them "hoof" it
 

Artrain

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Yaaaay! We won! We won! *jumps up and down* This proves it! We win matches when I stop watching. Yesterday after it became 3-2 against us, I decided that I was the cause of bad luck as usual, so stopped watching hoping that next day I'd read in papers of us beating them 4-3. But we beat em 5-3! Imma check highlights nao. ^_^
 

redbj

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no , lucas didnt play, but the grown ups are discussing him, in a very civilised and non insulting manner, the thread was designed for a different meaning but the conversation led somewhere else, its not illegal to do this, infact its encouraged, its called intelligent debate.
 

Quagmire81

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The thing is, though, they both play differently when together. Lucas distributes the ball forward off the defense like last year, but although Allen seems to be level with him, he plays a very different game. In theory (and in practice going on the few games they've played together) Allen moves around the midfield to always be in the perfect place for an outlet pass from the front four and the wingbacks. Lucas stays back and shields. Allen becomes the facilitator of our midfield and moves the ball to the dribblers and scorers a la Xavi and Lucas sits back and plays Busquets' role.
I could swear they only played one game with each other, which we lost 3-0!

I for one hope to never see them paired again, both are way to deep sitting and passive going forward to ever be a succes for the team as a whole I reckon.
Unless we actually had the offensive of barcelona, but we don't so no need to draw comparisions with them to the favor of Lucas only and now Allen too, it's beyond naive to ever think we play like them cause of them two only, it really is, and I'm quite tired of it to be honest.