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Should we cheat (within reason) if that’s what it takes to win the league ?

Should we cheat to win the league ?

  • Yes hack the big fucker down

    Votes: 35 72.9%
  • No, playing by the rules matters more

    Votes: 13 27.1%

  • Total voters
    48

FilthyBloke

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Or it’s the last minute against Leicester, Mane feels contact in the area and goes down. He probably could have stayed on his feet but goes down anyway.
For me, it’s not cheating if you go down with minimal contact. It’s being streetwise.
Same as hacking a striker down. Same as defender clearing a shot off the line with his hand.

What is cheating is breaking FFP rules and taking drugs or bribing match officials etc

I think in any game most players try to con the referee. Usually it’s little decisions like appealing for a corner or throw in when it’s clear that player himself touched it last.

So I would be happy if lovren hacked down Andy Carroll as long as lovren wasn’t pumped up on drugs and we signed him breaking FFP rules
 


Quicksand

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Anyone who has played football, at any level, with any mere degree of passion will bend the rules to make sure their team wins. Move the free kick a few yards forward. Grab the strikers shirt at a corner. Kick the ball away for their throw in. Block the run and take the card. Not cheating, a part of a combative game.

I am sick of us whining about other teams using 'the dark arts'. And sick of us rewriting history to make us be the team of splendid sportsmen. Ask Graeme Souness or Jimmy Case what they would do to Andy Carrol? Ask Phil Thompson about his professional foul against Forest. Ask Henchoz about his save in the Cup Final. We pushed the rules and were successful. But we were never cheats. Cheating has an expectation of getting away with it. We didnt ever.

Its not cheating on the same level as City or Madrid etc. Remember Fergie time? Was that cheating, pressurising referees or good tactics to win a match??

Next thing in this fucking sanitised world will be a call for playing in the spirit of the game to make sure we are all equal. Proper sportsmen stuff.
Imagine the scene Divock shouting to Trent " Take it again old chap, it appears they were not ready".......
 

GermanRed

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There’s been a bit of a debate in the Man City thread about the ethics of their systematic fouling as teams break against them. This has led to a discussion about whether winning the league is more important than playing by the rules.

So following #mascot88’s excellent question; imagine the following scenario, it’s nil nil in the last minute of the last game of the season. We need a point to win the league. Newcastle break from a corner and as Andy Carroll sprints toward the kop, Lovren blatantly hacks him down from behind. He gets a red, they squander the free kick and we win the league.

My question is are you happy or ashamed ?
Happy or ashamed? I’d be proud!

Doesn’t even need to be a league winning foul (not losing an important game is enough for me here) - I’d be proud that our player did the right thing.

Tactical fouls and hurting your opponent are part of the game.

Do I want our players break opponents leg every month? Absolutely no!

Is it ok if in each game an opponents player gets injured and misses out a few weeks? 100%!!!
 

GermanRed

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With that said - Choudhury did the right thing. Stopped his opponent from a scoring chance, got booked (probably the wrong card but that’s not his mistake).
 

Commando

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There’s been a bit of a debate in the Man City thread about the ethics of their systematic fouling as teams break against them. This has led to a discussion about whether winning the league is more important than playing by the rules.

So following #mascot88’s excellent question; imagine the following scenario, it’s nil nil in the last minute of the last game of the season. We need a point to win the league. Newcastle break from a corner and as Andy Carroll sprints toward the kop, Lovren blatantly hacks him down from behind. He gets a red, they squander the free kick and we win the league.

My question is are you happy or ashamed ?

"Andy Carroll sprints towards the Kop" and the whole of St James's Park wonder where the feck he's off to. We play them at their gaff in the last game.

The question is moot anyway. It should be Dejan fouling him to stop him from equalising and thus maintain our 100% win rate in the league. After all the league title was wrapped up weeks ago.

To avoid jinxing anything I will confirm that I am only joking. :)(y)
 



AussieLad

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Remember Suarez for Uruguay very late in a World cup game deliberately handling the ball on the line to deny a goal resulting in him being sent off and a penalty being given. Penalty was missed which resulted in Uruguay going through, that was cheating but he had to do it for his team!!

Best way to stop that is award a penalty goal, same as a penalty try
The key with that game is Ghana had a penalty and missed it. Had they scored then no one would have given it a 2nd thought.

Suarez conceded a penalty and got red carded, and Ghana had a penalty. The fact that they had the chance to rectify the goal from the penalty spot and fucked it up is a convenient excuse for people to moan purely because they were the underdogs and weren't expected to get that far
 

sportbilly1966

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The key with that game is Ghana had a penalty and missed it. Had they scored then no one would have given it a 2nd thought.

Suarez conceded a penalty and got red carded, and Ghana had a penalty. The fact that they had the chance to rectify the goal from the penalty spot and fucked it up is a convenient excuse for people to moan purely because they were the underdogs and weren't expected to get that far
We would all do what Suarez did but Ghana were robbed of a certain goal which their play deserved and the solution to stop that is in my post, how would you feel if that happened in a fame against City and it was a title decider..... oh it did when Kompany should have been red carded for that foul on Salah when he would have been clean through.
 

AussieLad

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We would all do what Suarez did but Ghana were robbed of a certain goal which their play deserved and the solution to stop that is in my post, how would you feel if that happened in a fame against City and it was a title decider..... oh it did when Kompany should have been red carded for that foul on Salah when he would have been clean through.
The solution is already in place though. They get a free shot one one one with the keeper, if they fuck that chance up then it is their own fault
 

Incognito

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The term cheating is what I think is upon interpretation and what the debate is all about. What suarez did then IMO is not cheating. It wasn't like he was going to get away with that. Diving is cheating. You are fooling the ref knowing you'll get an advantage that you didn't deserve. What Kompany did wasn't cheating. Because that foul IMO wasn't intentional. Him not getting punished is wrong.

What city does by consistent foul in isolation is not cheating. Them not getting yellow/ red cards for every such deliberate foul is wrong. Them knowing this gap and purposely using to their advantage is cheating. Rest of everything they do FFP violation, etc etc is cheating. Intentionally trying to injure a player is cheating again IMO.

My take on it personally and this is very difficult to put in black or white on such aspects.
 



epsomred

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"Andy Carroll sprints towards the Kop" and the whole of St James's Park wonder where the feck he's off to. We play them at their gaff in the last game.

The question is moot anyway. It should be Dejan fouling him to stop him from equalising and thus maintain our 100% win rate in the league. After all the league title was wrapped up weeks ago.

To avoid jinxing anything I will confirm that I am only joking. :)(y)
Good point. I have corrected the question.
 

norwegian wood

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I have no problem with socalled cynical fouls, as long as they aren't dangerous fouls. The sort of fouls City (and other teams) do at times to stop counter attacks, are not a big deal to me as long as they are clean fouls that don't hurt the opposing player. Fabinho does this quite a lot, and I don't mind.

So regarding the scenario in the opening post: If Lovren can stop him by holding his shirt I'm all for it. However, if he needs to put in a dangerous tackle to stop him, I wouldn't want that.
 

SirBillShankly

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Don't ever want to see us cheat or any of our players dive. We've got things spot on right now. We have progressed to such a level these days that I don't think cheating is really necessary. I'm happy with the occasional exaggeration in the opponent's penalty area, but that's just being smart isn't it?
 

Mascot88

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At some point, in the dim and distant history of the game, it was realised that 22 players could not be entrusted to uphold the rules of the game on their own, and a neutral third party - let’s call him a ‘referee’ - would be needed to ensure the rules were adhered to. Cheating has been part of the game for as long as there has been a game.

The rules of the game say that a professional foul is punishable with a yellow card. If Fabinho pulls a player back and receives a yellow card, then everything that has happened has done so within the laws of the game.

The problem with Man City is that they are frequently not punished for it, and tactically foul (as a direct result of being extremely high up the pitch) to the extent that it makes it incredibly hard for referees to punish without turning games into a farce.
 



James H

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So city aren't cheating, the referees are awful.
 

Commando

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Totally fine by me. Taking the card isn't cheating. Is it poor sportsmanship? Sure, but the moral high ground isn't a trophy.

And it would absolutely give United fans conniptions for the next decade, which is just another plus.

Great word that. I'd never heard it before. Had to look up what it meant.


So city aren't cheating, the referees are awful.
Rodri has come out in the press and said that he's been coached on the art of the tactical foul since being at Citoil. So I would say yes Citoil are cheating. They go out and commit premeditated fouls. I think given that they've owned up to it, then any yellow should be upgraded to a red. In the same way that you get a harsher sentence for conspiracy to commit a crime rather than just committing the crime of your own bat.
 

Claymenza

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Let's how this plays out in the long run. Some teams defend better on set plays than they do in open play.
The practice of professional fouling exists because of how the system of expulsion and suspension works.

A yellow card as the second last man back, is a small price to pay if it means preventing a goal bound opportunity.
A red card is a small price to pay at the end of the game to have a chance a penalties (Suarez)

If you have a deep enough squad, you can afford to have someone max out their yellow card quota for these reasons.
What if a red card lasted just the length of the half?
 

Prolix

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@Claymenza

I would love a system like in hockey where more fouls result in shorter-term player reductions/expulsions. No idea if it could be feasible in football, though.
 

epsomred

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Totally fine by me. Taking the card isn't cheating. Is it poor sportsmanship? Sure, but the moral high ground isn't a trophy.

And it would absolutely give United fans conniptions for the next decade, which is just another plus.
I reckon you are the first person in recorded history to use the word conniptions on a football forum. Cracking word, had to look it up. Well played sir, well played.
 



sportbilly1966

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The solution is already in place though. They get a free shot one one one with the keeper, if they fuck that chance up then it is their own fault
What is the conversion rate for a penalty? Also the pressure on a penalty taker in those conditions is considerable and is not the same as when a 'certain' goal would have been scored but was denied by foul play. As stated it is one of the rules I feel should be considered for a change along the lines of a penalty goal being awarded the same as happens in Rugby.
 

James H

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Rodri has come out in the press and said that he's been coached on the art of the tactical foul since being at Citoil. So I would say yes Citoil are cheating. They go out and commit premeditated fouls. I think given that they've owned up to it, then any yellow should be upgraded to a red. In the same way that you get a harsher sentence for conspiracy to commit a crime rather than just committing the crime of your own bat.
Intentionally fouling isnt cheating, they are aware they are going to give away fouls and accrue yellows. Its risk/reward, the risk doesn't outweigh the reward. It's up to officials and rule makers to change that. But you cant have 1 rule for city and another for everyone else.
 

Red Submarine

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I cringe when I see one of our players cheat. Skrtel's antics when defending in the box were not how we do things. Saying that, if cheating is now accepted and endorsed by the officials and governing bodies then I guess we have to adopt that. 'If you can't beat them join them' I guess. I'd like to see the team with the best disciplinary record awarded an extra point at the end of the season and the team with the worst deducted one.
 

Big_Doogs

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A professional foul isn’t cheating. Pretty much every game played, each team commits at least 1 professional foul per game so I really would have no issue with the scenario in the OP.

For me cheating is breaking FFP, diving with no contact (going down after contact is different] and feigning injury. Those behaviours to varying degrees would bother me. However, I hate to admit that winning the title would easily trump any objections. Actually that said, any meaningful circumventing of FFP would taint the title win. Falling foul of FFP by a little money because the wage bill was a little higher than planned, or a transfer fee for a player leaving was lower than budgeted for or a genuine mistake I could live with. However, if there were a deliberate attempt to work around the rules, massage the figures, or simply lie with regards to FFP it would most definitely ruin a title win for a me.
 

The Infamous

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Happy people are finally waking up to City’s strategic flow interrupting fouls. We should do it too more often especially in games against top 6
 



Sweeting

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Serious question... do people think we are some kind of moral arbitor of the game? And the people who do, without being patronising, are you children?

The idea we are somehow above cheating (although the example given isn't cheating, so lets say "smart play") is one that feels buried in an idea of Good Guys vs Bad Guys.

Other teams fans don't hate Liverpool because we cheat. They hate us because we are Liverpool and then they find reasons later on.

Foul, dive, time waste... who cares? Just win.
 

Dane

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Those taking a moral stance on this, that's your choice and I assume you live your lives under that moral code.

Here's a question for you.....

You park in town, buy your parking ticket and go about your shopping.
You get held up and arrive back at your car 20 minutes after your ticket has expired.

Do you go and find a traffic warden, tell him you cheated the system and demand a penalty notice?

Yep, thought not.
 

sportbilly1966

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Serious question... do people think we are some kind of moral arbitor of the game? And the people who do, without being patronising, are you children?

The idea we are somehow above cheating (although the example given isn't cheating, so lets say "smart play") is one that feels buried in an idea of Good Guys vs Bad Guys.

Other teams fans don't hate Liverpool because we cheat. They hate us because we are Liverpool and then they find reasons later on.

Foul, dive, time waste... who cares? Just win.
It is my impression that unlike Pep, Klopp wouldn't coach our players to professionally foul a player but he would expect that in certain situations our players would do it. Do you get my drift, because for me that is the difference, Pep appears to be using it as a tactic, where Klopp would expect a player to use common sense.
 

Sweeting

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It is my impression that unlike Pep, Klopp wouldn't coach our players to professionally foul a player but he would expect that in certain situations our players would do it. Do you get my drift, because for me that is the difference, Pep appears to be using it as a tactic, where Klopp would expect a player to use common sense.
Yes I understand that and think it is fair.

In terms of the question of cheating - if the question were something like...

Last day of the season we need to win to take the title, should a member of our backroom staff slip into the referee's room with a large brown envelope?

That's where I draw the line.