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Should we cheat (within reason) if that’s what it takes to win the league ?

Should we cheat to win the league ?

  • Yes hack the big fucker down

    Votes: 35 72.9%
  • No, playing by the rules matters more

    Votes: 13 27.1%

  • Total voters
    48

epsomred

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Those taking a moral stance on this, that's your choice and I assume you live your lives under that moral code.

Here's a question for you.....

You park in town, buy your parking ticket and go about your shopping.
You get held up and arrive back at your car 20 minutes after your ticket has expired.

Do you go and find a traffic warden, tell him you cheated the system and demand a penalty notice?

Yep, thought not.
Good point but in the same vein would you still get morally outraged by other drivers not buying a ticket ? I think this debate has shown that for a lot of people (75% of voters) winning the league is all that matters and if that means committing professional fouls to do it then so be it.

Where it gets a bit convoluted is when some of us take the moral high ground over city doing the same thing albeit in a more systematic way. We seem to be saying it’s ok to commit professional fouls in the heat of the moment but not ok to coach your players to do it. A bit like the difference between manslaughter and murder in the criminal code, it’s the planning that causes the outrage not the actual act.

In answer to the question, I would not to win the league that way and I hope we don’t descend to city’s level out of desperation. As I said before in an earlier post, doing the wrong things for what you perceive to be the right reasons is a very slippery slope.
 


epsomred

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I cringe when I see one of our players cheat. Skrtel's antics when defending in the box were not how we do things. Saying that, if cheating is now accepted and endorsed by the officials and governing bodies then I guess we have to adopt that. 'If you can't beat them join them' I guess. I'd like to see the team with the best disciplinary record awarded an extra point at the end of the season and the team with the worst deducted one.
Genuinely think that is a good idea.
 

epsomred

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No.
Would you?
No but equally I don’t get outraged by city. They systematically cheat and that’s their choice and their board and fans go along with it. A few of us would rather lose the PL than win it by cheating as per the OP but clearly we are in a minority in this thread.

At the risk of sounding like a pompous wanker, I think that in football and life in general, how you behave on the journey is maybe more important than the destination.
 



Quicksand

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When football history is written, sucess will never be measured by Fair Play awards. It will be measured by silverware. And at times by how silverware is achieved.......

Ben Johnson, Michelle Smith, Lance Armstrong et al cheated by using drugs to enhance performance. Man City abuse FFP rules, that is cheating. Real Madrid had Ramos assault Mo Salah. That is cheating.

In game tactics designed to win, knowing the officials will catch you cannot be described as cheating. Cheating by its nature shows subterfuge. I remember Viera diving against Liverpool years ago, cheating. I remember Fowler "buying" a foul vs Arsenal.......not cheating.

If I am the last defender and the striker is going by me, last minute and my choice is lose the league or take the red card then I dont have a choice. I take the red, and respect all the work and effort everyone else has put in. I dont take the high moral ground and devastate my team and supporters.

But I think you understand this better if you have played any sport, or being in that team. I took a hefty suspension for a foul that saved a goal, and got us three points in a league challenge. I would not have thought about it for a second. I would never have let the striker through and thought I was the better person for it.

Regarding assertions that how we behave on lifes journey is more important than the destination? Well that statement speaks high moral ground and disdain for those who may not ascribe to it. Its also a tad utopian to think that fairness exists on every corner, and that we dont have to deviate from the straight path on occasions.
 

sportbilly1966

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When football history is written, sucess will never be measured by Fair Play awards. It will be measured by silverware. And at times by how silverware is achieved.......

Ben Johnson, Michelle Smith, Lance Armstrong et al cheated by using drugs to enhance performance. Man City abuse FFP rules, that is cheating. Real Madrid had Ramos assault Mo Salah. That is cheating.

In game tactics designed to win, knowing the officials will catch you cannot be described as cheating. Cheating by its nature shows subterfuge. I remember Viera diving against Liverpool years ago, cheating. I remember Fowler "buying" a foul vs Arsenal.......not cheating.

If I am the last defender and the striker is going by me, last minute and my choice is lose the league or take the red card then I dont have a choice. I take the red, and respect all the work and effort everyone else has put in. I dont take the high moral ground and devastate my team and supporters.

But I think you understand this better if you have played any sport, or being in that team. I took a hefty suspension for a foul that saved a goal, and got us three points in a league challenge. I would not have thought about it for a second. I would never have let the striker through and thought I was the better person for it.

Regarding assertions that how we behave on lifes journey is more important than the destination? Well that statement speaks high moral ground and disdain for those who may not ascribe to it. Its also a tad utopian to think that fairness exists on every corner, and that we dont have to deviate from the straight path on occasions.
I think it all comes down to the way City systematically does it, where what you are describing anyone would do it for their club or country, you let yourself down before your team mates that is what team game is all about.
 

Zinedine Biscan

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I think it all comes down to the way City systematically does it, where what you are describing anyone would do it for their club or country, you let yourself down before your team mates that is what team game is all about.
When it's being coached into players to be as sneaky and snidey as possible as a key part of their strategy, it becomes wrong at that point for me. The fact they so rarely get punished for it makes it worse.

When we'd over-committed forward (against Leicester, I think) late on and Fabinho brought down their player before they could launch a quick counter that would have put us in trouble, getting a yellow in the process, I applauded it as good game management. And would do so again.

Every team does it, the vast majority of cases get punished for it and I would say for the vast majority of cases the direction given is 'if you have to do it, do it'. And that's fine.
 

norwegian wood

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I really don't get the outrage over what City are doing. Didn't even cross my mind before people started talking about it. They commit some professional fouls to stop counter attacks..so what? It's clever. As long as they don't use nasty challenges to take out opposition players, I don't see a problem with it. For me that's much worse, and that's something their opponents often resort to.

Professional fouls that don't hurt players, I have absolutely no issues with. Up to the referees to decide what to do with it.
 

Dane

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No but equally I don’t get outraged by city. They systematically cheat and that’s their choice and their board and fans go along with it. A few of us would rather lose the PL than win it by cheating as per the OP but clearly we are in a minority in this thread.

At the risk of sounding like a pompous wanker
, I think that in football and life in general, how you behave on the journey is maybe more important than the destination.
Too late
 



Iluvatar

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When it's being coached into players to be as sneaky and snidey as possible as a key part of their strategy, it becomes wrong at that point for me. The fact they so rarely get punished for it makes it worse.

When we'd over-committed forward (against Leicester, I think) late on and Fabinho brought down their player before they could launch a quick counter that would have put us in trouble, getting a yellow in the process, I applauded it as good game management. And would do so again.

Every team does it, the vast majority of cases get punished for it and I would say for the vast majority of cases the direction given is 'if you have to do it, do it'. And that's fine.
This is where I sit, I played competitive sports till around 26 and was no saint, got sent off, bent the rules etc. But that was always the exception to the norm v's what I think City do which is systemic cheating on a large scale (Barca/Real do it also).
 

jaffod

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A professional foul isn’t cheating. Pretty much every game played, each team commits at least 1 professional foul per game so I really would have no issue with the scenario in the OP.

For me cheating is breaking FFP, diving with no contact (going down after contact is different] and feigning injury. Those behaviours to varying degrees would bother me. However, I hate to admit that winning the title would easily trump any objections. Actually that said, any meaningful circumventing of FFP would taint the title win. Falling foul of FFP by a little money because the wage bill was a little higher than planned, or a transfer fee for a player leaving was lower than budgeted for or a genuine mistake I could live with. However, if there were a deliberate attempt to work around the rules, massage the figures, or simply lie with regards to FFP it would most definitely ruin a title win for a me.
That pretty much sums up how I see it.

Incidentally we have lost out on 2 major trophies in the last 2 seasons because of (a) a serial cheat who deliberately injured two of our players in the same match, and (b) Abu Dhabi FC (I haven't got the time to list their various transgressions). I don't recall too much outrage in either case, and doubt any of their fans lost too much sleep over it.
With repect, anyone who thinks committing a professional foul would taint a title win should probably look for another sport.
 

i_still_miss_fowler

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They key thing is premeditation.

In a split second decision it is fine to bring down the opponent, it’s out of desperation, you hope you can get the ball. Your doing everything to stop a goal. That’s acceptable in the game because it happens so quickly. However if you enter the pitch with the intention of fouling players that is not acceptable. That is cheating. It’s beyond being cynical. This is why when City player are being taught this it goes against the our ethos.

It’s the difference between a player committing a bad tackle hurting an opponent in the heat of the moment (eg let’s say against Everton) vs entering the pitch with the intention of hurting an opponent to take him out of the game.
 

jaffod

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Genuinely think that is a good idea.

No, it isn't. You only have to look at referee's inconsistency in handing out yellow/red cards to see how flawed that would be. I've seen games at Anfield where, in my opinion, ref's have chosen not to book or send someone off in the last few minutes because the game is won. Or because for some bizarre reason they want to 'level the field' a bit for the underdog.
It would be interesting to see where ABU Dhabi FC stand with regards to cards over the last few seasons, particularly in the seasons they've won it. I'd wager they'd be pretty near attaining another point under that system, thereby having their blatant cheating rewarded.
 



epsomred

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They key thing is premeditation.

In a split second decision it is fine to bring down the opponent, it’s out of desperation, you hope you can get the ball. Your doing everything to stop a goal. That’s acceptable in the game because it happens so quickly. However if you enter the pitch with the intention of fouling players that is not acceptable. That is cheating. It’s beyond being cynical. This is why when City player are being taught this it goes against the our ethos.

It’s the difference between a player committing a bad tackle hurting an opponent in the heat of the moment (eg let’s say against Everton) vs entering the pitch with the intention of hurting an opponent to take him out of the game.
I think this is the essence of the issue, premeditation is the difference between what city are doing and the rest of the PL. That said I bet a lot of other coaches are now planning to do the same so it’s going to need the officials to start clamping down on it pretty quickly.
 

epsomred

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Happy people are finally waking up to City’s strategic flow interrupting fouls. We should do it too more often especially in games against top 6
I think a lot of clubs are going to start doing it now. For me it’s still cheating though.
 

Rambler

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Interesting stats for this season.

Glad to see we are bottom of this particular league.

It proves you don't need to cheat to prosper.

 

Quicksand

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Interesting stats for this season.

Glad to see we are bottom of this particular league.

It proves you don't need to cheat to prosper.

Is "taking a yellow or red for the team" cheating?
 



jay90

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i'd probably throw my arms up and look around a little angrily. and then send degsy the biggest bunch of flowers to the changies.

i think it's really down to the authorities to set fair and adequate punishments:- for the suarez handball - penalty goal; for a player taken down clean through on the keeper - penalty regardless of where he is fouled. or maybe even an ice hockey style penalty to recreate the moment.

my issue with city's systematic tactical fouls is more with the fact they were getting away with them. now it's been brought to referee's attention they're picking up a lot of yellows - which against wolves meant that they couldn't commit another when chasing the counter and wolves scored twice. it's funny to see how hard done by they feel when they've committed 10 fouls and picked up 5 yellows!
 

epsomred

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i'd probably throw my arms up and look around a little angrily. and then send degsy the biggest bunch of flowers to the changies.

i think it's really down to the authorities to set fair and adequate punishments:- for the suarez handball - penalty goal; for a player taken down clean through on the keeper - penalty regardless of where he is fouled. or maybe even an ice hockey style penalty to recreate the moment.

my issue with city's systematic tactical fouls is more with the fact they were getting away with them. now it's been brought to referee's attention they're picking up a lot of yellows - which against wolves meant that they couldn't commit another when chasing the counter and wolves scored twice. it's funny to see how hard done by they feel when they've committed 10 fouls and picked up 5 yellows!
Yeah I think city are going to have to rethink things now. They’ve been rumbled. Good first post by the way.
 

epsomred

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Interesting stats for this season.

Glad to see we are bottom of this particular league.

It proves you don't need to cheat to prosper.

I think we don’t get the recognition we deserve for this. I’m proud of it.
 

Zoran

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I also didn't notice something different with City or that they're specially treated by refs (the human factor with them needs to improve) or something. Can only say that I loved how Bielsa reacted last season against Villa. We can win it normally and with class. Klopp very often uses the description "aggresive, but clean". You also have to be smart of course. That's the right balance we should all follow I think.
 

James H

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Erm, yes it is.
First of all full quote,
Intentionally fouling isnt cheating, they are aware they are going to give away fouls and accrue yellows
And no, it isnt, fouls are part of the game intentionally or no, if you think the punishment wasnt enough then there is a conversation. Fabinho often stops fast breaks with intentional fouls. By your reckoning he is cheating.
 



BigJon

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Is Harry Kane a cheat when he dives in the penalty box? Yes he is
Is Harry Kane a cheat when he asks the ref to get players sent off? Yes he is
Is Harry Kane a cheat when he claims to have scored a goal he did not even touch? Yes he is.

He is a ruddy cheat and I want to give him a good bunch of fives.

* Robbie Fowler is the only player I have ever seen, after being awarded a penalty, go to the ref and tell him that it was not a penalty. Can't remember which side it was against now. A bloody top chap that Robbie Fowler.
 

epsomred

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Is Harry Kane a cheat when he dives in the penalty box? Yes he is
Is Harry Kane a cheat when he asks the ref to get players sent off? Yes he is
Is Harry Kane a cheat when he claims to have scored a goal he did not even touch? Yes he is.

He is a ruddy cheat and I want to give him a good bunch of fives.

* Robbie Fowler is the only player I have ever seen, after being awarded a penalty, go to the ref and tell him that it was not a penalty. Can't remember which side it was against now. A bloody top chap that Robbie Fowler.
Arsenal away, think it was a mid week cup game. I met Robbie at Wembley a few years ago. Really nice guy, much smaller than you’d think.
 

DeathOrGlory

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Cheating implies getting away with it.

If our player got a red card due to bringing a man down one on one, then it's not cheating because he, and the team, got duly punished. End of story.

Every single team that has won the league has had a bit of nastiness to them. Look at Arsenal once they lost Viera etc, they're pathetic.

We're finally on course to lift this cunt after 30 years, I for one won't be sitting here moping about if we aren't 'gentlemanly' at the end of it. We didn't win WWII by fighting fair did we...

Moot point at the end of the day, because it's not like Klopp is a manager who sets his team up to be as cunty as possible, like Mourinho.