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The attack - what's the answer?

Incognito

The Normal One
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The above may end up with Firmino dropping deep instead of Salah, which I think was how we had set up in the earlier half of season. Also neither of Keita/ Shaqiri might be that effective on the left. I recollect us not being convinced with that set up earlier and were wanting to revert to 4-3-3 to become more attacking.

While finishing and lack of that Ox type midfielder are definitely two out of many factors; I believe more than the formation and the personnel, it's by design - an intentional lack of press, prioritization on defense and sustaining our energy for the entirety of season, which has resulted in perceived lack of attacking threat.

This is also evident that whenever we are down, we just raise our game and manage to score. We just don't do it proactively to put the game beyond doubt these days.
 


Anfield rd Dreamer

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Given a full season, I think Ox is capable of getting 8-10. Agree that's the difference we've been missing.
I think this is correct. There's certain players that we rely on for our tactical formations and set ups. Ox is one of them and unfortunately we don't have a similar player for this season. When fit and in form Lallana can offer some of the same. Keita is more of a CM but offers more pace and dynamism than Lallana. Wijnaldum the same. Firmino is a bit more like Lallana in that role and there's no "Firmino" in front of him to make it work anyway. Jones and Woodburn are unknowns. Wilson on loan. Shaqiri not tried yet although I think in the squad him and Wilson have the most potential to be Ox like.
 

Perth Red

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We have scored 3 more goals than the corresponding fixtures last season without Mo doing what he did - others, mostly Mane, have contributed. That being said, a few more from midfield, even the fullbacks, would certainly help on the final push
 



AussieLad

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"If you're in the penalty area and don't know what to do with the ball, put it in the net and we'll discuss your options later" - Bob Paisley

Pretty fucking simple if you ask me and as usual, Bob was always bang on the money
 

Incognito

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"If you're in the penalty area and don't know what to do with the ball, put it in the net and we'll discuss your options later" - Bob Paisley

Pretty fucking simple if you ask me and as usual, Bob was always bang on the money
Matip takes this very seriously lollol
 

redfanman

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I didnt want to start a new thread for this but the BBC provided some stats in terms of passes and assists by and for our front 3 and i thought it would make a useful starting point for a discussion following Mane's reactions during the Burnley game. One of the guys from the Under Pressure podcast had also tweeted some stats from after the game that i think differed from those below that showed Salah providing more key passes and assists than Mane - i'll have to see if i can find those to include in this thread.


Is there more to Mane's meltdown?
Liverpool are top of the table with a 100% record and claimed a first clean sheet of the season to boot at Burnley- but Sadio Mane's substitution provided the biggest talking point from the Reds' win at Turf Moor.

The Senegal international gestured to the bench as he was withdrawn, seemingly irritated by team-mate Mohamed Salah's decision not to pass to him when in space moments before - with the Egyptian's sight of goal ultimately snuffed out by the home side.

But was Mane's reaction indicative of a broader complaint?

Liverpool in the Premier League since 2017-18PassesChances createdAssists
Salah to Mane172254
Salah to Firmino277345
Firmino to Mane222265
Firmino to Salah256337
Mane to Salah177437
Mane to Firmino209172
Since the start of the 2017-18 season, Liverpool's front three have generated a total of 178 chances for one another - 59 each by Salah and Roberto Firmino, with Mane generating the remaining 60.

At first glance, that seems to show a fairly even split among the trio - but almost a quarter of the total were Mane providing an opening for Salah (43).

By contrast, back-to-back Premier League Golden Boot winner Salah has created just 25 chances for Mane, compared with 34 for Firmino.

Statistics also suggest the Brazilian forward slightly favours picking out Salah (33 chances) over Mane (26).
 



Zinedine Biscan

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I think the key point here is that the three players have created an almost identical number of chances for their fellow attackers - 59, 59 and 60 respectively, which kinda blows out of the water the theory that Salah is selfish.

If anything, maybe Bobby should be getting annoyed with Sadio ;)
 

Zoran

Fighting like beavers.
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Also worth knowing that Salah often plays with that bit more freedom than Mane. So there's not more to it. Our attack wouldn't be as brilliant if we had such problems. Salah leans more on the selfish side because he's basically our "main goalscorer" if you like. It's okay, we move on.
 

Billy Biskix

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I didnt want to start a new thread for this but the BBC provided some stats in terms of passes and assists by and for our front 3 and i thought it would make a useful starting point for a discussion following Mane's reactions during the Burnley game. One of the guys from the Under Pressure podcast had also tweeted some stats from after the game that i think differed from those below that showed Salah providing more key passes and assists than Mane - i'll have to see if i can find those to include in this thread.


Is there more to Mane's meltdown?
Liverpool are top of the table with a 100% record and claimed a first clean sheet of the season to boot at Burnley- but Sadio Mane's substitution provided the biggest talking point from the Reds' win at Turf Moor.

The Senegal international gestured to the bench as he was withdrawn, seemingly irritated by team-mate Mohamed Salah's decision not to pass to him when in space moments before - with the Egyptian's sight of goal ultimately snuffed out by the home side.

But was Mane's reaction indicative of a broader complaint?

Liverpool in the Premier League since 2017-18PassesChances createdAssists
Salah to Mane172254
Salah to Firmino277345
Firmino to Mane222265
Firmino to Salah256337
Mane to Salah177437
Mane to Firmino209172
Since the start of the 2017-18 season, Liverpool's front three have generated a total of 178 chances for one another - 59 each by Salah and Roberto Firmino, with Mane generating the remaining 60.

At first glance, that seems to show a fairly even split among the trio - but almost a quarter of the total were Mane providing an opening for Salah (43).

By contrast, back-to-back Premier League Golden Boot winner Salah has created just 25 chances for Mane, compared with 34 for Firmino.

Statistics also suggest the Brazilian forward slightly favours picking out Salah (33 chances) over Mane (26).
Statistics without context. Nothing here about what options might have been available to the player, what the game situation was, what the formation was (Salah often plays in the most advanced position).

Mane losing it was worthy of discussion because it was an unusual event and it did highlight Mo's selfishness during this particular game, but the over-analysis here and elsewhere is just the media stirring the pot and trying to identify trends that might hint at a wider problem. We all know that if there is a problem then Klopp will have sorted it already.
 

Foldy

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I can't see Klopp seeing it as anything other than positive. The three of them care about scoring and its nothing more than a storm in a teacup. How many times, in whatever capacity of football you may of played, have you shouted at your mate/s for not passing you the ball when you were clear on goal? I just think Salah was desperate to get his name on the score sheet with both Bobby and Sadio scoring. If anything its just the press trying to sell papers over fuck all.
 

redfanman

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Statistics without context. Nothing here about what options might have been available to the player, what the game situation was, what the formation was (Salah often plays in the most advanced position).

Mane losing it was worthy of discussion because it was an unusual event and it did highlight Mo's selfishness during this particular game, but the over-analysis here and elsewhere is just the media stirring the pot and trying to identify trends that might hint at a wider problem. We all know that if there is a problem then Klopp will have sorted it already.
I think it is fair for the media to look at this and dont see it as over analysing at all - as long as the stats are accurate and any narrative a reasonable one. We've seen similar issues raise there head between Mane and Salah - the big one that pops into my head is Mane not passing in the game against Everton two seasons ago - and that from memory was because he felt that Salah wasnt passing to him in similar situations.
 



W00die

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Probably for the best this happened early in the season and just before an International break. There have been a number of times recently where Mo had someone else in a better position but refused to pass and it came to nothing. I'm sure there will also have been times where the same situation occured and he scored. But, if we was just a little less selfish our Goals For column will get even better and we'll have more chances of winning 38 matches this season (plus all the cup ones of course).
I'm sure the boss will sort it out over the next few weeks and we'll start scoring 5 or 6 a game. So all good.
 

Limiescouse

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I think it is fair for the media to look at this and dont see it as over analysing at all - as long as the stats are accurate and any narrative a reasonable one. We've seen similar issues raise there head between Mane and Salah - the big one that pops into my head is Mane not passing in the game against Everton two seasons ago - and that from memory was because he felt that Salah wasnt passing to him in similar situations.
It was because the defender was so scared about Mane passing to Salah that he left the path wide open to Sadio taking it himself and shooting. Mane ended up shooting from about 8 yards out, from a good angle and completely unchallenged because of the distraction that Mo provided. We'd have expected him to score about 99 times out of a 100 from there. The fact we didnt score wasnt because of selfishness or poor decision making, but because of an utterly terrible strike from Mane who pathetically scuffed his shot. Prior to that moment though he played the situation perfectly and the pass to Mo was much harder.

Several of the cases I have seen people bring up on other threads show examples where the man in possession was similarly justified in taking it on himself. Some I have even seen people draw passing angles on an image where no passing angle exist. The reality is that when you're breaking like this if you choose to pass there is more that can go wrong than if you choose to take it yourself. So unless the pass really presents itself, most good forwards will back themselves because it simplifies the move.
 
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