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The attack - what's the answer?

Iluvatar

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Probably at risk of becoming like a broken record, but we need to stop playing Sturridge and Firmino together. They litterally are one of the worst pairings I've seen. Not only does it shaft Firmino outwide where he is utterly useless, Sturridge doesn't make the selfless runs Firmino does for the likes of Salah to exploit, and our entire attack stutters.

If Mane needs replacing, bring on Oxlade, move Coutinho to the left etc. If you want Sturridge on, then replace Firmino with him. I like Sturridge I think he has a lot to offer us, but its either him or Firmino for me. Id be giving Sturridge a chance from the start this weekend, surrounded by Mane, Salah and Cou.. Let's see how that goes, he is our best finisher by far so lets get him on to finish this bounty of opportunities.
 


Flobs

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We just slow it down too much looking for a pass when a shot would do. Taking the shot in our setup could never be termed selfish at worst it could be seen as taking responsibility. This is why Mané scores when he receives a pass he doesn't slow the game down he keeps the pace or accelerates it.
Firmino for all his great work and talent is more like having a play maker in the strikers position and we already have too many play makers as it is.
 

ILLOK

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I don't think there's much needed here. Just keep the lads we have playing together and it'll all come together, sooner rather than later. You don't always need big sweeping changes as a catalyst for a change in fortune, patience is all that is required I reckon.
 

anglian_red

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The main issue I see here is the lack of a proper striker. Sturridge is the closest we have to it but his fitness isn't reliable enough.

I may sound outdated but I prefer it when teams have a proper CF, not this 'false 9' nonsense. A true number 9 is your focal point, reliable finisher and also very handy in your own box - Fernando Torres cleared his fair share of corners which few probably noticed.

Such players are hard to find and most teams have to settle for someone like Benteke who does a lot of things well but is lacking in others - but Benteke had a 1 in 2 record at a bottom 6 club, which is better than Firmino has here so it shows if you use your players well for what they're good at you can have success.
 

Billy Biskix

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There is nothing wrong with our attacking play. We are carving teams open almost at will. Towards the end of last night's game we were literally creating chances every 90 seconds or so. Decent chances too. Not pot shots. And all this against a team who were attempting a low block. I haven't seen us stifled at all yet this season. We are simply not scoring as many as we should relative to the number of chances we create. The goals will come.

We didn't play with a proper striker for the most part last season and goalscoring wasn't an issue for us apart from the Jan-Feb period and the issue then was chance creation, not finishing. A 'proper' number nine doesn't solve that.

Firmino is off form. No question about that but it's a long season and all players have dips. We were genuinely unlucky last night in front of goal. I am all in on what Klopp is trying to do offensively. It's exactly the right way to go. Defensively it's a different story but up front we are not far away from really clicking. A bit of patience is required.
 



ubermick

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I'm with @ILLOK on this - scratching my head to see what the fuss is about. Yes, missed a potload last night, but still the same team that knocked three past Leicester a few days before, four past Arsenal, a combined six past Hoffenheim over two legs, etc.... there have been a couple of matches where we've misfired (Burnley, Palace) but the first team has only managed to not score in one match this season, the arsekicking against City.

We have three proper strikers in the squad - Sturridge, Solanke, and Ings - and the problem we have is that a better quality one won't want to come here since they'd be a rotational player. The situation's not helped either by the fact that strikers are creatures of form, and need regular time to get their shooting boots on. I have no doubt that if Sturridge had been playing a bit more regularly the last few weeks, he'd have put at least one of those chances away.
 

anglian_red

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A 'proper' number nine doesn't solve that.
Question; if Sergio Aguero is in our team last night, does the game finish 1-1?

Answer; No

We're capable of blowing anybody away on our day obviously but too often we're discussing a game where we've created lots of chances, had all of the ball and not won it - four games in the last few weeks have ended up like that and for me that's due to a lack of real cutting edge just as much as it is defensive errors.

Defensive errors get more keyboard time as they're more obvious and easier to criticise, where as having 70% of possession, 30 attempts and only scoring once goes under the radar.
 

GTA_G20

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Probably at risk of becoming like a broken record, but we need to stop playing Sturridge and Firmino together. They litterally are one of the worst pairings I've seen. Not only does it shaft Firmino outwide where he is utterly useless, Sturridge doesn't make the selfless runs Firmino does for the likes of Salah to exploit, and our entire attack stutters.

If Mane needs replacing, bring on Oxlade, move Coutinho to the left etc. If you want Sturridge on, then replace Firmino with him. I like Sturridge I think he has a lot to offer us, but its either him or Firmino for me. Id be giving Sturridge a chance from the start this weekend, surrounded by Mane, Salah and Cou.. Let's see how that goes, he is our best finisher by far so lets get him on to finish this bounty of opportunities.
I agree 100% Personally think firmino is brilliant but more a 10 than a 9, however when he's on he's ON. When he's not Klopp needs to recognize it and let the other strikers we have rotting away on the bench get some game time. Solanke was brought in this summer and barely plays. Sturridge needs a few matches to get his touch back. Why we don't give the other strikers a run is beyond me.
Wouldn't mind a change of formation either.
Also wouldn't mind playing Milner instead of Can. Ox in mid instead of Gini. Just try and mix things up a bit. Midfield changes to be done one game at a time. Not two changes for any particular game.

We have too much talent to keep sending out the same predictable side. Change it up a bit keep things and players fresh
 

ubermick

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Question; if Sergio Aguero is in our team last night, does the game finish 1-1?

Answer; No
Fair point, and you're 100% right - can't argue it.

But.

Question: If Sergio Aguero is in our team, is he happy being in and out of the side as Klopp chops and changes, using him in specific situations?

Answer: No.
 

Ahmed Hussain

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I would sign a new striker that has a good track record and capable of scoring goals. I would then put Firmino in a 10 role, with the new striker in front plus Mane and Salah on the wings. I'd then have 2 of Coutinho, Henderson, Lallana, Can, Grujic, Wijnaldum and Keita {next year} as the midfield pairing behind Firmino. Basically playing in a type of 4-3-3.
 



anglian_red

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Question: If Sergio Aguero is in our team, is he happy being in and out of the side as Klopp chops and changes, using him in specific situations?

Answer: No.
Can't agree with that. If Aguero was at Liverpool he wouldn't be chopped, changed, moved, rotated, benched or dropped for anybody else in our current squad. He would play every game. I mean come on.

Considering how far short we are of being in a position to win the Premier League, any assertion that a player like Aguero would only be used 'in specific situations' is something I have to find amusing.

Reality is we'd bite arms off for a forward like that.
 

Billy Biskix

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Question; if Sergio Aguero is in our team last night, does the game finish 1-1?

Answer; No

We're capable of blowing anybody away on our day obviously but too often we're discussing a game where we've created lots of chances, had all of the ball and not won it - four games in the last few weeks have ended up like that and for me that's due to a lack of real cutting edge just as much as it is defensive errors.

Defensive errors get more keyboard time as they're more obvious and easier to criticise, where as having 70% of possession, 30 attempts and only scoring once goes under the radar.
Aguero is one of the world's greatest strikers. He ain't playing at Liverpool any time soon. Let's be realistic. Benteke was a proper striker. So was Ricky Lambert. And Daniel Sturridge definitely is. That's more our ball park.

There's nothing wrong with Klopp's approach in attack. Least of our worries right now.
 

anglian_red

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You say there's nothing wrong with Klopp's approach and for the most part obviously we're very good, but I think when the team consistently comes away from games saying 'we had the most possession, 30 attempts on goal, clearly the better team...' without winning the game then there's as many errors in attack as in defence.

It's easy to look at the Spartak game and say if it's not for Can's ridiculous fucking around and Karius playing we'd have won. That's fair obviously but on the flip side we created a lot of chances - against a deep set ordinary team which isn't always easy - and failed to score. We seem to be accepting a 10% success rate in attacking play and expecting a 95% success rate in our defensive play.

Daniel Sturridge is the only striker we have and he doesn't play. For me that's madness. Firmino has 27 goals in 96 Liverpool apps so far which isn't terrible for a midfield player, but considering he's played most of those games at centre forward it's hardly inspiring.

I really like Firmino, I think he's taking some stick especially for the Spartak game and obviously missed a penalty the other week but I think he does a lot of good work which often goes unnoticed - neat touches and creating space for others and I'd have no problem with him playing at number 10 most of the time and filling in as a CF when required but I don't think he's got enough to be first choice CF.

Benteke was the most frustrating player I'd ever seen. 6ft 3 centre forward who wasn't in the box when the ball eventually came in but you can add him to a long list of players who were good elsewhere but just couldn't get comfortable at Liverpool - Morientes, Keane et al. Benteke seemed to think he had to change what he was when he came here because he went from a counter attacking side relying on breaks, set pieces and balls in the box to a side which likes to play football on the ground and he tried to be something he wasn't.

I think Liverpool were as much to blame for the £32million signing not working out as Benteke was because we knew what we were buying and we asked him to be something else which was never going to happen.
 

YeGra

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Aguero is one of the world's greatest strikers. He ain't playing at Liverpool any time soon. Let's be realistic. Benteke was a proper striker. So was Ricky Lambert. And Daniel Sturridge definitely is. That's more our ball park.

There's nothing wrong with Klopp's approach in attack. Least of our worries right now.
I think we can do better than Lambert and Benteke to be fair...

It's obvious Klopp loves Firmino (just don't ask if he does), and is fundamental to Klopp's system. Why change that? We clearly have goals in the team. We've also had Mane out of the side for half of our games so far, and the same for Coutinho, putting more pressure on Firmino to deliver.

The front four of Coutinho (creativity), Firmino (technical ability and work rate) and Mane, Salah (pace) is a frightening combination and has yet to be fully tested. The whole point, and it was praised last season, is we can have goals coming from all over the pitch, rather than focused on one/two individuals making a team a single point failure if they go out of form or are injured. Added to that is Ox for a back up winger or central attacking midfielder, Solanke and Sturridge as options for a proper striker. That's not to mention Lallana is due to come in as additional attacking creativity.

We used to have a team with barely any creativity a couple of years ago. Now we are created chances left right and center, and it's one of the biggest changes I've noticed under Klopp. We just either haven't been clinical or our defensive side has let us down.
 
K

Klopptinho

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worlds greatest strikers - sergio aguero . lollollollollol guy can hardly get a game for Argentina. scoring goals in the premier league does not equate to being one of the worlds greatest .
 
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Ahmed Hussain

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I think we can do better than Lambert and Benteke to be fair...

It's obvious Klopp loves Firmino (just don't ask if he does), and is fundamental to Klopp's system. Why change that? We clearly have goals in the team. We've also had Mane out of the side for half of our games so far, and the same for Coutinho, putting more pressure on Firmino to deliver.

The front four of Coutinho (creativity), Firmino (technical ability and work rate) and Mane, Salah (pace) is a frightening combination and has yet to be fully tested. The whole point, and it was praised last season, is we can have goals coming from all over the pitch, rather than focused on one/two individuals making a team a single point failure if they go out of form or are injured. Added to that is Ox for a back up winger or central attacking midfielder, Solanke and Sturridge as options for a proper striker. That's not to mention Lallana is due to come in as additional attacking creativity.

We used to have a team with barely any creativity a couple of years ago. Now we are created chances left right and center, and it's one of the biggest changes I've noticed under Klopp. We just either haven't been clinical or our defensive side has let us down.
In all fairness, i think it was the first time that front four piayed altogether in a game. They may need a little time adjusting to each other as positions are slightly different compared to last season.
 
K

Klopptinho

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In all fairness, i think it was the first time that front four piayed altogether in a game. They may need a little time adjusting to each other as positions are slightly different compared to last season.
it's a matter of luck . sometimes you can connect too well with a shot/header and the keeper gets there because it is where the ball is expected to go.. other times you'll get a little deflection or hit a shot into the ground and it will bobble/fly in to a place you never aimed for .
 

Trader

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Kane, Aguero, Morata and Lukaku. All their number 9s are currently on fire. At the moment they're scoring more than us but more importantly they're conceding A LOT LESS than us. We've conceded 9 goals more than the top teams. And that's only in the league.
Same story in the champ league. Other English teams scored more and conceded less.
We do need a killer clinical number 9. But attack alone ain't enough... the personnel we've got is ok but not for the top at the moment and it's breaking my heart :unhappy:
 

Imgoingred

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For the way we play, and what Firmino offers, the only player in the world I can think of that can combine work rate and the level of finishing some people deem required of him is Suarez.

Unfortunately, that guy's a one of a kind.

In saying that, I'd prefer a pure 20+ a season striker though. But that would require a complete change in the balance of the team. Our press starts with Firmino. Sturridge, Aguero or any other pure finisher/No.9 wouldn't offer the same work rate and could result in a knock-on affect for the rest of the team.
 

Gone Kloppo

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Question; if Sergio Aguero is in our team last night, does the game finish 1-1?

Answer; No
I really hate statements like "If player X was in the side, we would have won the game". Really? Based on what? Are you suggesting he has never played a football match without scoring in it? Even if it was the case, which it isn't, our game against Moscow could still have been the match where he didn't score. l recall Aguero going through a barren run of form last season. Is this the Aguero that would have won us the game on tuesday? Or the recent one where he's scoring more regularly? Either one, he still may or may not have scored on tuesday. If we replaced Firmino in his recent form with Firmino from when he was banging them in for fun, does that get us the win on tuesday? Maybe, maybe not.

Having particular players, or players in particular form, is a guarantee of nothing. It probably helps you get a win but suggesting there are certainties like you are suggesting is rubbish.
 



anglian_red

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I don't recall Firmino ever banging them in for fun - like I said earlier he's got roughly a 1 in 4 record which is decent enough for an attacking midfielder, especially considering the opportunities he makes for others but it's not good enough for a top teams CF.

Of course I'm not suggesting that Aguero's never failed to score - though he seems to enjoy playing against us, surprise surprise - but we made chances in the Spartak game that he would've scored from 99 times out of 100. I'm using Aguero as an example obviously but you could be more general with it; if any top CF was in our team this season we'd be in a better position in both the league and Europe than we are right now.

The Sevilla, Spartak and Burnley draws are as much down to wasting chances as much as iffy defending and a ruthless forward capable of making the most of Coutinho's first half display at Leicester in the cup would've buried a couple.
 

neil316

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Yeah I agree, Liverpool are going to give somebody a hammering soon! Just need a clinical striker, because they don't have one, the pressure falls on the defence
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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I don't recall Firmino ever banging them in for fun - like I said earlier he's got roughly a 1 in 4 record which is decent enough for an attacking midfielder, especially considering the opportunities he makes for others but it's not good enough for a top teams CF.

Of course I'm not suggesting that Aguero's never failed to score - though he seems to enjoy playing against us, surprise surprise - but we made chances in the Spartak game that he would've scored from 99 times out of 100. I'm using Aguero as an example obviously but you could be more general with it; if any top CF was in our team this season we'd be in a better position in both the league and Europe than we are right now.

The Sevilla, Spartak and Burnley draws are as much down to wasting chances as much as iffy defending and a ruthless forward capable of making the most of Coutinho's first half display at Leicester in the cup would've buried a couple.
Yeah but you're ignoring the obvious question. If we took Firmino out (and all the work, closing down, creating and generally tying opposition defences in knots that he brings) and put Aguero in..... do we still make anywhere near as many chances? Do those chances land on Aguero? Are they proper chances or just half chances? It's all very well saying if everything else in the game went the exact same way Aguero may well have buried a chance or two Firmino missed but everything else in the game wouldn't have been the exact same would it?
 

sportbilly1966

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To give a serious response on this.

I think we have too many going forward. If you look at games where we have loads of shots most of them are half chances. It often occurs after a series of short pointless passes and then someone decides to take a shot from distance.

Teams park the bus against us as we have so many camped in their half. It becomes very congested hence all the short pointless passes.

The less men your pour forward the less the opposition sit back and camp in their own half. So if we had two sitting midfielders and two full backs that didn't play like wingers we would be much more solid defensively with six men back, the opposition would come out behind their parked bus, which would result in us having more space for the most devastating frontline in the league, Mane, Salah, Firmino and Coutinho, to do the damage. They are direct and thrive in space, the way we play doesn't afford them such space...except against top teams when we do sit back more hence our record against them is so good. We can press when the opposition come into our half, then kill them with the attacking players we have. That Mane goal against Arsenal...we are probably the only team in the league capable of doing that.

All in all the balance is wrong. It's too top heavy in attack, congested, becomes ponderous, harder to carve open a good chance, and at the same time with so many forward we are exposed in defence and gift the opposition easy chances. It's why we often have the statistic: 70% possession, 30 shots....opposition 6 shots....result 1-1. By overloading in attack we make it harder for ourselves to score goals and easier for the opposition to score. It's happened time and time and time again under Klopp.
Great constructive analysis. This would work against the top teams as per your example against Arsenal. However, this philosophy wouldn't work against the lower teams as they would be more than happy with a draw against us and with some of the neanderthal managers out there they wouldn't attempt to commit numbers forward against us and we would then have no numbers in the attacking play to try and commit their players.

The only way to solve our attacking is to somehow be more clinical whether that means buying someone who is a top quality finisher (Just thinking how good would Suarez be in this Team :celebrating:) or really work hard on the finishing techniques of the current players - not easy as scoring is also a mindset and something that to me is natural attribute.
 



anglian_red

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Yeah but you're ignoring the obvious question. If we took Firmino out (and all the work, closing down, creating and generally tying opposition defences in knots that he brings) and put Aguero in..... do we still make anywhere near as many chances? Do those chances land on Aguero? Are they proper chances or just half chances? It's all very well saying if everything else in the game went the exact same way Aguero may well have buried a chance or two Firmino missed but everything else in the game wouldn't have been the exact same would it?
Maybe not but you could use that argument to nullify any player comparison debates to the point where we'd still have Balotelli.

I just think the balance of the side is far off what's needed to win a title. For example I would bank on United over City over a 9 month season. No doubt City play the better football but now Mourinho's got the team he wants in place they will get results when its tough, whereas City will go off the boil at some point.

Ideally you'd want a Torres type number 9 forward, with Firmino just behind. Mane and Coutinho in the wide positions with Henderson and a more natural defensive player alongside him as the midfield 2.
 

Danny Sarge

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Even though Ox has put the Ox in Bollox since he's been here i think he should get a run in the team in place of Mane now hes injured on the left. I dont rate him as a right winger or a CM but on the left we might get a decent performance out of him.

Personally i think its his best position anyways.

Wasn't sure to stick this in the midfield or the attacking thread.
 

Danny Sarge

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I really hate statements like "If player X was in the side, we would have won the game". Really? Based on what? Are you suggesting he has never played a football match without scoring in it? Even if it was the case, which it isn't, our game against Moscow could still have been the match where he didn't score. l recall Aguero going through a barren run of form last season. Is this the Aguero that would have won us the game on tuesday? Or the recent one where he's scoring more regularly? Either one, he still may or may not have scored on tuesday. If we replaced Firmino in his recent form with Firmino from when he was banging them in for fun, does that get us the win on tuesday? Maybe, maybe not.

Having particular players, or players in particular form, is a guarantee of nothing. It probably helps you get a win but suggesting there are certainties like you are suggesting is rubbish.
Last time i checked Aguero's broken about 2 or 3 different PL records for goalscoring so he probably would make a difference.
 
K

Klopptinho

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Last time i checked Aguero's broken about 2 or 3 different PL records for goalscoring so he probably would make a difference.
what records has he broken ? i would think the only records that count are most goals in the premier league, most goals in a season , most goals in a match , most hat tricks and most goals for your club.. along with most winning goals. ... how many of these does he own ? can't be arsed to check for myself .lol