The Defence - what's the answer?

Discussion in 'The Albert - LFC Talk' started by Danny_, Aug 13, 2017.

  1. LFC4EVR

    LFC4EVR Active Member

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    Our entire game is focused on the counter and stretching the opposition and we're very much the all out attack type of team, losing Mane and taking off Salah ended that tactic and we became disorganized. Unfamiliar system and shape plus no focus to play the ball out to all contributed, we also didn't hunt the ball at all and try to win it back, so no pressure by us. Give a team time and space to play and they'll hurt you. This was exaggerated by the fact we were facing a world class side that is technically gifted at passing and the moves that cut us apart were often inch perfect passes and superbly timed runs from an onside position. With us retreating into a defensive shell we afforded City time and space to essentially pull us apart and we aren't geared for that sort of tactic. I don't get why Klopp did what he did unless he conceded defeat and wanted to save key players for today and throw the towel in, but by pulling off any attacking outlet City overran what is already known to be a fragile defense.

    This has been said to death by others but we provide our defense with little to no cover and that same defense doesn't provide cover for the keeper. Our attack needs to contribute to the defense of set pieces and have an understanding of what to do. Tracking a runner would help a lot and allow the defense to mark the area. This has been an issue. Also having a Kante or Fernandiho who will go and break up plays, someone to offer a first line of defense is absent from our team. Hendo for me is an attack minded player, so asking him to assume this covering position doesn't work and he looks uncomfortable. Another aspect of this is our tendency of playing with the ball, instead of a good old fashion clearance we'll often do a stupid pass to the middle, seen Moreno and Lovren do that and it drives me nuts. This is school yard shit.
     
  2. KCollins

    KCollins Well-Known Member

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    We don't have the personnel, especially no defensive midfielder.

    In terms of the back line, Joe Gomez, Trent Alexander Arnold, Alberto Moreno, Dejan Lovren...the first two have been thrown in despite being completely unproven, the other two are proven liabilities.

    In games against quality opposition Klopp has no issue starting unproven players in defence, yet he doesn't do so in attack. He places less importance on defence.

    If it's true he was after Lemar then alarm bells should be ringing. Trying to strengthen an area where we are very strong while not addressing an area where we are shambolic.
     
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  3. KCollins

    KCollins Well-Known Member

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    Didi Hamann - "I've rarely seen a more unbalanced squad. It's very top heavy."

     
  4. Nikola

    Nikola Optimist with a bit of experience. Admin

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    It seems that we'll be spending almost the whole season watching the same old crap in defence and midfield. For once, I agree with Hamann, who makes the likes of Tony Evans look optimistic when it comes to Liverpool and their fortunes. Defence simply sucks, both individually and collectively. No composure there, can't rely on them to perform even the basic stuff. Midfield offers no real protection to them, a combination of poor fitness and consistency from Klopp's current first choice trio. At least we're conceding all kinds of goals now and not just those from high crosses and set-pieces.
     
  5. mattyhurst

    mattyhurst TIA Regular

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    I don't have an issue with him I just think we are far too forward focused when both him and Moreno play. The midfield also looks all over the shop and that is pretty much where most of the danger from Sevilla came from tonight.

    I really don't have the answers as it's just not balanced, I guess be more clinical up front as we would have won that 4-2 if we had.
     
  6. Liverpool-NI

    Liverpool-NI New Member

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    Why oh why haven't we bought a commanding centre back. This problem is going on for months All attack and no defence.
     
  7. liveforthereds

    liveforthereds asp67 twitter

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    The Question is what is the answer,

    Well the answer is very simple and this may have been already said but we need to buy better quality Defenders for the left side of the pitch, Matip and with what we have at RB is fine but Lovern and Moreno needs replacing, Can't comment on Robinson as he ain't had a real chance yet. We also need to buy a holding Midfielder and sacrifice one of the more attaching midfielders so instead of say Hendo and Can / Another we insert a holding midfielder in this part of the Midfield.
     
  8. Kanonkop

    Kanonkop Well-Known Member

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    Given that Lovren and Klavan both have multiple errors in their game - every game - is there any reason not to try a Gomez + Matip pairing?

    After all, the conceived wisdom is that you don't play a young CB as they are error prone but given that our seasoned pros are also....what is there to lose?
     
  9. liveforthereds

    liveforthereds asp67 twitter

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    Have to agree if Matip is going to help Gomez become a better player then playing in the same role would be easier rather than trying to teach him to be a RB.
     
  10. AussieLFC79

    AussieLFC79 TIA Regular

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    I would agree if we had Clyne fit and available. But with his injury, that would leave TAA as our only RB and as good as he has looked in games, the City game showed how wet behind the ears he still is, so needs more time to mature and learn from his mistakes.
     
  11. Elessar

    Elessar Well-Known Member

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    Why should Moreno be replaced? He has been our best defender so far this season by some distance. Moreno play because he deserve to play and suit our playing style. If we would play with a more defensive LB then it would hurt our attacking game.

    As I have said before. There isn't many LB/RB out there that is good in both halfs of the pitch. If you want us play a more defensive LB then we would score less goals. Moreno suit Mane. Mane wouldn't be able to get as much space as he do if Moreno didn't bomb forward time after time. Play a more defensive LB and you get a worse Mane.
     
  12. Iluvatar

    Iluvatar Eru

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    I think the problem is if you start Gomez, with Clyne out you then have Gomez and TAA on the right side. There is no issue with quality, but the experience may mean together they would struggle.

    I personally think once Clyne is back our strongest back line is.

    Clyne Gomez Matip Robertson.
     
  13. zman89

    zman89 Member

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    Robertson looked more solid than Moreno at the back and equally dangerous when attacking. Maybe we should give him a chance? The less said about Lovren the better.
     
  14. liveforthereds

    liveforthereds asp67 twitter

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    Gomez can play left side, he was starting to nail down the LB position before he got the bad injury, so don't see it being a problem him playing left side
     
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  15. kenno91

    kenno91 TIA New Signing

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    don't understand why Moreno isn't just pushed forward and used as a winger ONLY. play robertson left full and as far as the rest of that so called defence goes Klopp has to take the blame as it doesn't look like the do any work on the shape or defensive side of the game at all. he needs to bring in an old school defensive coach and let him work with all the defenders every day until the end of time so they can have an understanding of where they need to be and what situations they need to sniff out. too many of them don't have the positional awareness to be defenders in my opinion. one good defender isn't going to solve this you need 4 and you need them playing/training together all the time.

    cant just train with attacking formations all the time as we will never win anything or get anywhere full stop. go get sami hyypia in and give him full control over training for defenders. it wont solve bad players but it will tighten things up until the proper players can be brought in. the lads we have at the back are all 2nd choice players in my mind we just need first teamers in there now.
     
  16. Kanonkop

    Kanonkop Well-Known Member

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    Agreed. I struggle to see how he would do a worse job there than Lovren.
     
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  17. Ʒan

    Ʒan Well-Known Member

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    What's the answer to the defence? The two things Liverpool fans lack: Time and patience.

    We have a habit of completely overreacting, and it's something the media thrive on, even rely on. We very rarely give our defenders a chance to be confident in what they are doing. The odd occasion will be where our fans are completely focused on something else, like our Europa League run a couple of years ago. The players were given the freedom to grow in confidence by not having the fans on their back.

    It seems when a couple of mistakes are made, suddenly we are all on their case. And it completely fucks up their confidence. There can bed little question of that. I think Lovren's missed kick (most toddlers could have made contact with that cross) was confidence related. As for Moreno, he was defensively our worst last night, and this is coming from someone who defends him more than most. Following this game, I know all his defensively flawless performances this season will be forgotten, everyone will be on his case once again and his form will dip further, instead of fans just accepting that he had one bad game defensively. Because let's face it, we are good at forgetting the good and remembering the bad. It's a little unusual how Moreno was excellent attacking but cba defending last night, when every other game this season it had been kind of the opposite. I hope he can bounce back and concentrate next game to hopefully silence our fans for a little bit longer.

    I think when the defenders lose a bit of confidence and the fans and media are on their case, their wheels slip for a bit before gaining some traction, usually in the form of a couple of clean sheets. We know our defence is capable of gaining some long term defensive momentum- after all it happens every season where we go on a run of good defence. The problem has always been holding that confidence through an entire season, or longer. Our defenders, all of them, can defend. It's just whether we as fans are patient enough to wait for the form and confidence to return.
     
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  18. Zinedine Biscan

    Zinedine Biscan Trust in Klopp

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    Until Clyne is back could be worth trying Milner at RB if we want to give Gomez at go at CB?

    Lovren and Klavan aren't catastrophic in every game, but they have the potential to be, meaning we have literally no idea whether on the day we'll do ok or gift the opposition at least a couple of stupid goals, which breeds uncertainty throughout the team. While Matip hasn't been great, I wouldn't be surprised if a big chunk of our defensive problems were sorted by replacing Lovren with a reliable CB.
     
  19. GermanRed

    GermanRed Well-Known Member

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    As soon as we sign VvD I would play Clyne, Matip, VvD, Robertson and Danny Ward. Signing a defensive destroyer in midfield should also help.
    For those who are not convinced with Clyne I'd say he had his best games when Mané played in front of him - hope it will work with Salah too.

    Mignolet, Karius, Lovren, Klavan, Moreno are hopeless cases.
     
  20. Mascot88

    Mascot88 Yours for £1m. Need to make room for Dean Saunders Admin

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    It was an miracle he didn't get a red today. He is brilliant going forward, but an absolute liability in defence. His tackling is bizarre to say the least, and his positioning is non-existent.

    I've been saying a while the best way to use Moreno is further up the pitch. He could be a fine understudy to Mane. I'd love to see him get a start there. Just please keep him away from the back line.
     
  21. AussieLFC79

    AussieLFC79 TIA Regular

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    The thing is, Gomez is still fairly young and inexperienced as a CB at this level, so I would rather not throw him in if we are having to play a midfielder as a makeshift RB, better to hold off until we have a proper RB.

    In regards to your 2nd point, I don't think simply replacing Lovren is the answer. Most of the goals we conceed are more likely to come from players switching of and losing concentration, which is something happening throughout the team, not just with Lovren. The team seems to be missing a Carra style leader that will give people a proper bollocking when they stop concentrating or are not picking up a runner from set pieces. In my opinion, I think the team is in more need of a defensive coach to ensure that players understand what their roles are within the defensive structure of the system we are playing.
     
  22. YeGra

    YeGra Well-Known Member

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    We know what we get with Clyne. A reliable defender and god knows we need that right now.

    It's becoming more and more a necessity to strengthen in January.

    Im trying to keep an "early days" stance and there will be plenty of twists this season. But something needs to be done to correct this otherwise we will struggle to get into the top 4 this year with the amount of competition we have for those places.
     
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  23. liveforthereds

    liveforthereds asp67 twitter

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    Beglin said last night "He does everything you should not do, I was not trained to do things the way he does" he finds it baffling that he is getting in the team.

    Now while it is said he does good things going forward, he by no means does anything you would be happy with when defending in fact your hart is in your mouth every time he goes in for a tackle.

    I will say this I said at the time of his signing why are we signing him, as he had done nothing to suggest he was good enough. In the two games I watched him in before he signed, the games was the Semi and the final of Europa League and in both games he nearly cost his team the games, the final he was caught out of position so many time it was farcical and with one tackle he was so lucky to still be on the pitch. Never been good enough for me and as far as I am concerned should be sold asap.
     
  24. Iluvatar

    Iluvatar Eru

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    Time and Patiance? Lovren exhausted both over a year ago. It's not a new phenomenon, he is a fucking donkey.
     
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  25. Kanonkop

    Kanonkop Well-Known Member

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    Our defense has been sub-standard since Kenny and Steve Clarke were here. It is not a short-term phenomenon. Confidence might have something to do with it for sure but its a much deeper problem than that given the enduring nature of the issues.
     
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  26. Mascot88

    Mascot88 Yours for £1m. Need to make room for Dean Saunders Admin

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    We conceded 40 goals that season, which is only two less that last year.

    People take about Steve Clarke like he was a defensive genius, but we still conceded more goals that we should have.

    The 'cost' of 'only' conceding 40, was that we scored 47 goals. And that was with Susrez in the team.

    Klopp managed to score 78 to contrast letting 42 in.

    I dare say if Klopp fancied parking his defence on the edge of the 18 yard box, we'd concede a lot fewer than we do now.
     
  27. Imgoingred

    Imgoingred TIA Reserve Team

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    As a wingback in a back 5 would be my ideal position for me. I believe what Klopp is trying to do is to develop him by giving him playing time - He's known for developing players and making them world beaters. He clearly has more patience than us fans do. We know Moreno is quite capable going forward - his lovely 1-2 assist for Firmino today is another example. What we lacked last season were full backs who could consistently add a threat when we were going forward. One of the things we absolutely struggle with the most is breaking down teams who play 6-3-1. Having full backs who offer something going forward helps.

    With that said, I find it strange that Robertson isn't getting more minutes as from the limited time we've seen him play for us, he's been decent going forward.

    Right now, armchair managers around the world and fans alike are begging for an improvement in our defence. You can look at it in one of 3 ways:
    1. We conceded 2 goals from 3 chances. Our defence is terrible (in this case it absolutely was)
    2. We conceded only 3 shots to a good European side.
    3. A combination of the first 2.

    I'd hazard that 99.99% of people are looking at it from perspective 1. I'm personally looking at it from perspective 3. I guess I'm a glass half-full type of guy when it comes to LFC. There is definitely room for improvement, but we aren't AS BAD as we're made out to be. I hope I'm not proven wrong.
     
  28. Imgoingred

    Imgoingred TIA Reserve Team

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    So much of this! I've said it before, but we concede goals as a result of compromise. We're clearly an attacking side and as such, we will score more, but also concede more. Similar to Rodgers 13/14. Speaking of Rodgers... Most of this team is still Rodgers' team. The team that scored 100+ (albeit with Suarez and a fit Sturridge) but conceded 50+ and 48 in 2 seasons. We are much more balanced than people think we are. We simply need a bit consistency and consistency comes with time.
     
  29. LaurazRed

    LaurazRed The hopeful one

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    Robertson hasn't been getting a look in since the Palace game, since Moreno still gets caught out defensively too much for me, along with Lovren I don't know why he's not been given more of a chance.
     
  30. mattyhurst

    mattyhurst TIA Regular

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    It is a bit bafflingly, considering everywhere else that can be rotated bar Firmino has seen rotation.

    Hopefully he starts on Saturday.
     
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