The Defence

How many goals will we concede?

  • 50+ (Rodgersesque)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 41-50 (too high to be champions)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 31-40 (About par for top four)

    Votes: 1 3.1%
  • 21-30 (Solid return)

    Votes: 21 65.6%
  • 11-20 (current record; 15)

    Votes: 5 15.6%
  • 1-10 (Mourinho’s wet dream)

    Votes: 1 3.1%
  • Concede? What’s that then?

    Votes: 4 12.5%

  • Total voters
    32

lfc.eddie

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Yet the same courtesy is almost never afforded to Lovren.
Gomez errors as a young fullback learning his trade should not be compared to a full blown seasoned pro who is also a self-proclaimed as one of the best defender in the world. An experienced centre half should not commit the mistakes Lovren made, rash and overzealous tackles and interceptions, leaving behind for his teammates to clean up his mess. They both are not and should not be judged on equal footing, not until Gomez has one full season starting as a centre half.
 

Gone Kloppo

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Gomez errors as a young fullback learning his trade should not be compared to a full blown seasoned pro who is also a self-proclaimed as one of the best defender in the world. An experienced centre half should not commit the mistakes Lovren made, rash and overzealous tackles and interceptions, leaving behind for his teammates to clean up his mess. They both are not and should not be judged on equal footing, not until Gomez has one full season starting as a centre half.
Jurgen Klopp said:
Since I came in, maybe Dejan made three or four mistakes, two of them in the Tottenham game, maybe one in a Champions League game last year. But it’s for sure not 15 or 20.
https://www.liverpoolfc.com/news/first-team/306892-jurgen-klopp-dejan-lovren-world-cup

This should 100% not be seen as an attack on Gomez's current form. I'm sure everyone involved with the club are very happy a young lad has taken the next step. But Gomez will almost certainly have bad games this season, and will likely even lose his place. And it will be a reflection of how far along Lovren/Matip and Gomez are in their respective careers. Gomez is going to have a great career but there is no rush.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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https://www.liverpoolfc.com/news/first-team/306892-jurgen-klopp-dejan-lovren-world-cup

This should 100% not be seen as an attack on Gomez's current form. I'm sure everyone involved with the club are happy a young lad has taken the next step. But Gomez will almost certainly have bad games this season, and will likely even lose his place. And it will be a reflection of how far along Lovren/Matip and Gomez are in their respective careers. Gomez is going to have a great career but there is no rush.
The flip side of that is that Gomez is more likely to then learn from those mistakes and develop further. He won't get that opportunity whilst sitting on the bench and Lovren plays. Gomez will have times he won't play or shouldn't play. Resting, taking out of the limelight sometimes, suspensions and injuries. Whoever our third CB in the pecking order is will likely play a fair bit. Our 4th and 5th choices are likely to play some games too unlike in most European leagues. When Gomez is set and ready and available to play I think he should now. There may be little to no benefit from that in the current time (although I think he is doing easily good enough and I'd rate him as doin great). But the long term benefits for Gomez getting that playing time this season could be massive. He could well be a CB on a level with the likes of VvD and Alderweireld once he's had time and experience to fully settle in and get acclimatised. Lovren is fine, especially with VvD beside him and as a 3rd choice he's as strong an option as it gets. But he is what he is now and (in our system) won't achieve that elite level of VvD and that Gomez could do. The back 4 of Alexander-Arnold, Gomez, VvD and Robertson has every tool it needs to be considered a real special unit. One for the record books. And it's only going to get better with playing time.
 

lfc.eddie

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https://www.liverpoolfc.com/news/first-team/306892-jurgen-klopp-dejan-lovren-world-cup

This should 100% not be seen as an attack on Gomez's current form. I'm sure everyone involved with the club are very happy a young lad has taken the next step. But Gomez will almost certainly have bad games this season, and will likely even lose his place. And it will be a reflection of how far along Lovren/Matip and Gomez are in their respective careers. Gomez is going to have a great career but there is no rush.
If by using Klopp's words about his own player to rate how we saw the player perform, we would not have bought Van Dijk, Alisson, Salah and a few more players that we are celebrating today. It also didn't negate what I said about Lovren of repeating his own mistakes rather than correcting it.
 

Billy Biskix

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Gomez is worth persevering with. He has a higher potential ceiling than Lovren and Matip. He is also quick, like VVD and it's useful to have that kind of pace at the centre of defence when we play as high as we like to.

He suffers from over-analysis of his play mainly because he made a couple of high profile errors at FB last season which were punished. Now there's a tendency for people to claim he's switched off even in the most innocuous incident i.e. the half chance for Arnautovic in the West Ham game. He will make mistakes because he's only 21 but he's partnering the best CB in the entire league and playing in a solid set up now so he's only going to get better and he's pretty good to start with. I hope he gets an extended run even when Lovren is fit again.
 

Gone Kloppo

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If by using Klopp's words about his own player to rate how we saw the player perform, we would not have bought Van Dijk, Alisson, Salah and a few more players that we are celebrating today. It also didn't negate what I said about Lovren of repeating his own mistakes rather than correcting it.
Funnily enough, Allison was earmarked in January, Lovren has played almost every game beside VVD rather than being in direct competition, and I don't ever recall Klopp stating that we weren't in for a wide forward given that the whole world and his dog knew we needed one after Mane's absence at the CAN.

Can you provide more evidence of Klopp contradicting himself, as you are suggesting? Can you also let me know the repeat mistakes Lovren has made?
 

lfc.eddie

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Funnily enough, Allison was earmarked in January, Lovren has played almost every game beside VVD rather than being in direct competition, and I don't ever recall Klopp stating that we weren't in for a wide forward given that the whole world and his dog knew we needed one after Mane's absence at the CAN.

Can you provide more evidence of Klopp contradicting himself, as you are suggesting? Can you also let me know the repeat mistakes Lovren has made?
Where did I suggest Klopp contradicting himself? I am suggesting Klopp will never slate or being critical publicly on his players.

As for your first paragraph, has nothing to do with Lovren’s free of repeating his errors, no?
 

Danny_

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Basically, what it comes down to is which one of our CBs compliments VVD best. Right now, it looks like Gomez although Matip could turn out to be a great pairing also (except that he hasn't been able to keep fit).
 

SithBaare

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Have to rotate VVD, Gomez at some stage during this upcoming month. Lovren is out for another month.

Hopefully Matip, Phillips, Fabinho(at a pinch) are enough to do a job.
 

Zoran

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Klopp said we'll have Lovren back at some point for this hectic month ahead. When that is exactly, we'll see, but it didn't sound like he'll be out for another month.
 

lfc.eddie

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Klopp said we'll have Lovren back at some point for this hectic month ahead. When that is exactly, we'll see, but it didn't sound like he'll be out for another month.
League Cup, just bloody play him and Matip together in league cup.

When we had Hyypia and Carragher as our centre half pairing, apart from playing minnows in club run or one of the two being injured, we don’t change that partnership. Hardly see Rafa rotate the back 4 and this is someone who would take a forward out even if he’s on form.

Leave Gomez and Van Dijk partnership as it is.
 

YeGra

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I strongly disagree with rotating CBs unless one or the other detoriates in form. I'd much rather Gomez and VvD build up a great partnership.

League Cup games and FA Cup games against lower tier opponents are the exception where we can play the weaker players.
 

Claymenza

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League Cup, just bloody play him and Matip together in league cup.

When we had Hyypia and Carragher as our centre half pairing, apart from playing minnows in club run or one of the two being injured, we don’t change that partnership. Hardly see Rafa rotate the back 4 and this is someone who would take a forward out even if he’s on form.

Leave Gomez and Van Dijk partnership as it is.
Lovren will be useful in the champions league.
I feel gomez is growing into his role as he's very mobile and good with the feet which I'm afraid is a requisite nowadays.
 

Claymenza

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League Cup, just bloody play him and Matip together in league cup.

When we had Hyypia and Carragher as our centre half pairing, apart from playing minnows in club run or one of the two being injured, we don’t change that partnership. Hardly see Rafa rotate the back 4 and this is someone who would take a forward out even if he’s on form.

Leave Gomez and Van Dijk partnership as it is.
I am pretty certain Daniel Agger had a decent run of games when he was signed and later on, skrtel.

What rafa did expertly with the back four is that they were well drilled and coordinated that it did not matter what the partnership was.

That said, hyypia was our best centre back and rafa could not drop carragher either.
To think we let alonso, hyypia and arbeloa go all in the same summer. Replaced by aquilani, kyrgiakos and glen johnson.
 

lfc.eddie

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I am pretty certain Daniel Agger had a decent run of games when he was signed and later on, skrtel.

What rafa did expertly with the back four is that they were well drilled and coordinated that it did not matter what the partnership was.

That said, hyypia was our best centre back and rafa could not drop carragher either.
To think we let alonso, hyypia and arbeloa go all in the same summer. Replaced by aquilani, kyrgiakos and glen johnson.
That started after 2006, Agger debut season. Hyypia was supposed to be phased out due to his age and getting a bit slower. But prior to that if his preferred centre half pairing wasn’t injured, he would play them every league matches.
 

Red over the water

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I’d stick with Gomez and VVD as the preferred partnership, until they show me they should not be, either by injury or form. It’s going very well so far, and we should leave it be.
 

Princeob

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We can't defend set-pieces. We have the same problems as last year and we have not really reinforced it over the summer. Lets just assume that we won't be able to buy anyone top class before the transfer window ends. For me, there are two choices. 1. We play Gomez at CB with Matip and hope he develops into a top class defender. 2. I hate to say it but maybe, the only option at this point is to bury the hatchet with Sakho. He may have an attitude problem but him and Matip would be our best partnership at CB.

At LB, the only solution is Milner. Moreno is atrocious. His tackling is weak, his positioning is weak, he no longer seems to offer much even going forwards and he is prone to giving away stupid penalties. He is not good in the air. All round, he is just !$##@ crap. People can say what they want but when match day comes around, they have to face reality. He has had his time and now his time is up, At CB, the best you can say about Lovren is that he is average and at RB, we had a kid playing today against Watford.

I don't think we will even challenge this season if this situation is not addressed. We have 16 days left to do something in the transfer window. If we can't, then we have to swallow our pride and let Sakho have a second chance.
We have just started the season, there is more room for improvement. The defense will be solid as the experience grows
 

Mascot88

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That started after 2006, Agger debut season. Hyypia was supposed to be phased out due to his age and getting a bit slower. But prior to that if his preferred centre half pairing wasn’t injured, he would play them every league matches.
Rafa was quizzed on this in a press conference - You talk about rotation, but you never rotate your centre backs?

Rafa gave a long patronising answer, which basically amounted to they don’t run about as much.
 

Zoran

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Hopefully both Lovren and Trent are back for Bournemouth. Could be a late call, but the sooner they're back, or one at least of them, the better.
 

Mascot88

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I’m getting a bit concerned about this high line. It’s worked really well for us, but in the last few games teams are starting to play on it.

There is some shithousery going on as well - blocking runners, pushing players towards their own goal to create an onside - but the referees are never going to look at that.
 

jaffod

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I’m getting a bit concerned about this high line. It’s worked really well for us, but in the last few games teams are starting to play on it.

There is some shithousery going on as well - blocking runners, pushing players towards their own goal to create an onside - but the referees are never going to look at that.
One solution is to stop giving away stupid free-kicks in dangerous areas.
 

Red Armada

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I’m getting a bit concerned about this high line. It’s worked really well for us, but in the last few games teams are starting to play on it.

There is some shithousery going on as well - blocking runners, pushing players towards their own goal to create an onside - but the referees are never going to look at that.
Teams have adapted to it. It's time to do the same. Getting back the regular starters would also help of course.
 



lfc.eddie

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One solution is to stop giving away stupid free-kicks in dangerous areas.
And let’s not sit back, play stupid little flicks and silly passes that required the defence to do more work when we got a goal lead. That could also help...
 

Claymenza

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That started after 2006, Agger debut season. Hyypia was supposed to be phased out due to his age and getting a bit slower. But prior to that if his preferred centre half pairing wasn’t injured, he would play them every league matches.
Agger came in the january window as Rafa knew he would have to blood a younger centre back, so he only had about 5 starts that season.
Hyypia and carra had about 50+ starts each, and the other centre back at the time was... djimi traore. When agger had his first full season, he was preferred over hyypia.

Eventually Hyypia started getting phased out because Agger was clear ready. Things changed when Agger picked up injuries and skrtel came in the following january window as a backup to hyypia and carra.

In reality though, we all know the ideal pairing should have been Hyypia and Agger. When someone gets injured, it's not called rotation anymore. Right now, Klopp is trying to have experienced utility players like milner act as contingencies in the event of an injury. If robertson gets injured or suspended, we're not toast but the opposition will definitely setup a game plan around that flank!

2006/07 season

2008/09 season
No.PosNatPlayerTotalPremier LeagueChampions LeagueFA CupLeague Cup
AppsGoalsAppsGoalsAppsGoalsAppsGoalsAppsGoals
3DFSteve Finnan35021+306+103010
4DFSami Hyypiä44424+3112+124100
5DFDaniel Agger604+10100000
6DFJohn Arne Riise44022+705+50400+10
12DFFábio Aurélio29113+317+200+1030
17DFÁlvaro Arbeloa41026+208+101030
23DFJamie Carragher55034+101303+1030
37DFMartin Škrtel20013+10501000
 

sms1986

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This was posted on the Liverpool subreddit -

@[B]BookieInsidrs[/B]
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Aerial duel success in the Premier League
Joel Matip 73.17%
John Stones 67.86%
Chris Smalling 67.07%
Shane Duffy 66.08%
Fabinho 65.96%
Jonny Evans 64.58%
Wes Morgan 64.42%
Terrence Kongolo 64.38%
Declan Rice 63.41%
Virgil Van Dijk 62.72%
Harry Maguire 62.24%
 

lfc.eddie

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Van Dijk’s percentage is so low because nobody bothered to go up against him knowing they will lose anyway. So making 13 out of 20 isn’t so bad.
 

Zoran

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2008/09 season
AppsGoalsAppsGoalsAppsGoalsAppsGoalsAppsGoals
No.PosNatPlayerTotalPremier LeagueChampions LeagueFA CupLeague Cup
3DFSteve Finnan35021+306+103010
4DFSami Hyypiä44424+3112+124100
5DFDaniel Agger604+10100000
6DFJohn Arne Riise44022+705+50400+10
12DFFábio Aurélio29113+317+200+1030
17DFÁlvaro Arbeloa41026+208+101030
23DFJamie Carragher55034+101303+1030
37DFMartin Škrtel20013+10501000
Just a small correction, Finnan wasn't at Liverpool anymore in 08/09. Those stats are probably from 07/08.