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The keeper Situation

T.C.B

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Jones has done well in fairness. Good shot stopper and positions himself well. I have already said in the post match thread that I think its doubtful that Pepe will go straight into the team when fit. Would it not be unfair on Jones to bench him now? He was a number 2 but now could claim to be No.1 on merit. Is he our long term keeper though, also doubtful. Pepe is a top keeper but has he really been up to those levels in the last couple of seasons? In his prime its a no brainer but recently Im not so sure. He has made way too many mistakes and there is little room for sentiment in the modern game. How long do you give him to regain top form. If Doni had done his stuff he might have already replaced him.
 

rich1991

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maybe pepe prematurely opened one of rodgers "who will disappoint us this year envelopes" and saw his name on a piece of paper :ph34r:
 

Sine

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Pepe's distribution is great, yes. But what does it matter when the ball is bouncing off him, whistling past him at the near post (I have never seen a keeper get beat so much at his near post as Pepe in the last couple of seasons), he is dropping crosses and unerving the defence? Keepers are there primarily to stop the Ball crossing the line and hitting the net.
I'd keep Jones cause he doesn't make bad calls, decisions or silly punches causing us goals.
 

Sine

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You mean, like that silly punch for Osman's goal in the Derby?
He's had fair share of good 'falcon' punches and 'pigeon' punches.

He's making fantastic saves only to let in a quickie next moment.

He's got all the right elements of a young goalkeeper - damn. I'd give him 5 more games and then let Reina in, he'll be spurred enough to keep cleansheets until the Mayans come.
 

jimmydestiny

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So in addition to the "Is Stevie First Choice" thread we also now have an "Is Pepe First Choice" thread. Brilliant.

Seriously, though, I think its good for us to be able to question whether club legends deserve to be dropped. At some point, everyone gets old or runs into some poor form.
I am not sure I would drop either, but you are never a permenent fixture in any side. The minute you think you are is the minute your standards start slipping.

My honest opinion on Jones is that he is not good enough at this level (or at least at the level we aspire to play at) and Pepe can still turn it around. This kick up the backside is exactly what he needs.
 

Macedonian_Red

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Pepe Reina 'back on Arsenal's radar as Arsene Wenger considers January bid'

Liverpool goalkeeper Pepe Reina is reportedly back on the radar of Arsenal boss Arsene Wenger, as the Frenchman looks to sure up his leaky defence in the January transfer window.

Reina, 30, has struggled to regain his place in goal at Anfield following an injury, with Reds manager Brendan Rodgers preferring to keep faith in big Australian Brad Jones.

The former Middlesbrough man impressed in the 1-1 draw at Chelsea, and looks set to continue between the sticks for Liverpool’s next game against Wigan, which would mean again leaving Reina out in the cold.

Gunners boss Wenger is said to be concerned with his goalkeeping options, and although Wojciech Szczesny is set to return from injury for the weekend clash against Tottenham, the Pole’s form prior to his spell on the treatment table was questionable.

Now, according to Spanish reports, Wenger is ready to turn back to Reina, who he first tried to sign to replace Manuel Almunia in 2010.

The Frenchman believes the Liverpool board could be more receptive to an offer this time around, after the old regime of Tom Hicks and George Gillett blocked a move for the Spanish international.

Reina previously admitted: 'Arsenal had made their determination to sign me clear by offering £20m, a phenomenal amount for a goalkeeper. Part of me felt that I was well within my rights to consider my future even if I did so with a heavy heart.

'When Liverpool received the bid, they rejected it. This was not because I had been told that I was too good a keeper to leave. The reason I was given was quite different - and it left me feeling down.
'I was told that my continued presence was crucial to the sale of the club. I was simply a bargaining chip in the sales process.’

http://www.metro.co.uk/sport/football/917887-pepe-reina-back-on-arsenals-transfer-radar-as-arsene-wenger-considers-january-bid
 

rupzzz

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Would be gutted if Reina were to leave, especially for Arsenal. However I don't see that happening. He loves the club and is part of the spine of the club.

My understanding of it is that he is injured and that's it. Jones has deputised well, but should drop back to the bench when Pepe is fit again.

If Arsenal want to take him and BR can get a decent replacement I guess I'd be ok, but Vorm is the one I'd want and he's signed up to the Swans. I'd want a small sum of money and Walcott for Reina if that were to happen
 

liveforthereds

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I could see this happen and I would not bleame the lad if he did go, I would expect a lot more than 20M as I think even with his poor form before his injury he is a better Keeper than back in 2010. I hope he stays as I do think he will regain his form and it would not be good to see him go to a rival, Arsenal's one weak spot over the last few years has been the keepers postion and have not really had a good keeper since Seamen left. But money talks and the owners have already shown they will take the money (Torres).
It will come down to a few factors being do they make a bid and where does Pepe see his future.
 

wembley 65

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all it shows is that pepe has some real competition for his place at last, jones has done really well in his absence and the competition will make us a better team..........
 

Macedonian_Red

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Would be gutted if Reina were to leave, especially for Arsenal. However I don't see that happening. He loves the club and is part of the spine of the club.
Pepe is 30 already, and on high wages ... Hardly the best fit for a club of our ambitions ... With the cost cutting exercise taking place at the club, I won't be surprised if he gets sold, and is replaced by a younger keeper on lower wages ...
 

funkynoise74

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Keepers usually last longer than outfield players, Friedal being a great example, so Pepe should be coming into his prime years now. Selling him wouldn't really make much sense.
 
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Hope Reina comes back firing. Brad Jones' good form should hopefully have given him a wakeup call to improve his performances and I expect him to fight for his place. Still a brilliant keeper and hopefully he will be with us for many more years!
 

rupzzz

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Pepe is 30 already, and on high wages ... Hardly the best fit for a club of our ambitions ... With the cost cutting exercise taking place at the club, I won't be surprised if he gets sold, and is replaced by a younger keeper on lower wages ...
Keepers peak at 30. Sell him at 32-33 UNLESS we can sign a top class replacement.

Look at how much top teams struggle with young keepers (such as Man U or Arsenal) that cost an arm and a leg, with the exception of Joe Hart.
 

Macedonian_Red

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Keepers peak at 30. Sell him at 32-33 UNLESS we can sign a top class replacement.
Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see Pepe at LFC for many years ... However, he is on close to 100,000 per week, and our level of ambition under FSG, combined with the cost cutting measures that are taking place, hardly allow such a highly paid keeper ...
 

Quagmire81

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Would be gutted if Reina were to leave, especially for Arsenal. However I don't see that happening. He loves the club and is part of the spine of the club.

My understanding of it is that he is injured and that's it. Jones has deputised well, but should drop back to the bench when Pepe is fit again.

If Arsenal want to take him and BR can get a decent replacement I guess I'd be ok, but Vorm is the one I'd want and he's signed up to the Swans. I'd want a small sum of money and Walcott for Reina if that were to happen
Didn't he write in his book something about him being forced to stay when arsenal came knocking years back, back when the old owners was in process of selling the club and had him as one of the main assets to boost up the price.

I wouldn't be surprised if he demands a transfer this time around. I hope I'm wrong.
 

gr_sounder

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Personally, I will be surprised if Reina is on our team next season and wouldn't be totally surprised if he was sold in the January transfer window.

For those of you saying Reina is world class or one of the best keepers in the world... he has not been that quality for about a year now and I don't see it changing. His focus seems to be off and I don't see him loving being on this team (note I still think he loves the club but that's another topic). Honestly I think his enjoyment at being at Liverpool began waning when Rafa left and it's just kept decreasing.

Sure he's been injured but I would have expected more updates on him and his pursuit to return to the first team. Wasn't he supposed to be back in training and with the team a week or two ago? And in that time, Jones has played well. Not amazing... but he's doing at least as well as Pepe was before the injury (and in my opinion making fewer mistakes). I will agree that Pepe has more talent than Jones... but at the moment I think Jones is playing better than Pepe... and that's more important to me. I'd stay with Jones until he drops off or until Pepe can show he's obviously the better option.
 
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Personally, I will be surprised if Reina is on our team next season and wouldn't be totally surprised if he was sold in the January transfer window.

For those of you saying Reina is world class or one of the best keepers in the world... he has not been that quality for about a year now and I don't see it changing. His focus seems to be off and I don't see him loving being on this team (note I still think he loves the club but that's another topic). Honestly I think his enjoyment at being at Liverpool began waning when Rafa left and it's just kept decreasing.

Sure he's been injured but I would have expected more updates on him and his pursuit to return to the first team. Wasn't he supposed to be back in training and with the team a week or two ago? And in that time, Jones has played well. Not amazing... but he's doing at least as well as Pepe was before the injury (and in my opinion making fewer mistakes). I will agree that Pepe has more talent than Jones... but at the moment I think Jones is playing better than Pepe... and that's more important to me. I'd stay with Jones until he drops off or until Pepe can show he's obviously the better option.
Form is temporary. Class is permanent. Reina may not have been in top form the last few months but before that he has consistently been one of our top players for a few seasons. Just because he has not been at his best recently (along with many other players) does not mean he has suddenly turned into an average player.

And personally I also think that because we are used to him being so good, it also tends to make us a bit biased when assessing his performances. We expect him to stop most goals and always deal with crosses well so even when he has maybe only one or two lapses in the game we consider it a bad performance according to his standards (whereas if it was maybe some other keeper we might consider the same performance a good one).
 

Macedonian_Red

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Personally, I will be surprised if Reina is on our team next season and wouldn't be totally surprised if he was sold in the January transfer window.

For those of you saying Reina is world class or one of the best keepers in the world... he has not been that quality for about a year now and I don't see it changing. His focus seems to be off and I don't see him loving being on this team (note I still think he loves the club but that's another topic). Honestly I think his enjoyment at being at Liverpool began waning when Rafa left and it's just kept decreasing.

Sure he's been injured but I would have expected more updates on him and his pursuit to return to the first team. Wasn't he supposed to be back in training and with the team a week or two ago? And in that time, Jones has played well. Not amazing... but he's doing at least as well as Pepe was before the injury (and in my opinion making fewer mistakes). I will agree that Pepe has more talent than Jones... but at the moment I think Jones is playing better than Pepe... and that's more important to me. I'd stay with Jones until he drops off or until Pepe can show he's obviously the better option.
Form is temporary, class is permanent ... If Pepe is not on our team next season, or even is sold in January, it will be for financial reasons, not footballing ones ... This debate about Jones being the better option than Pepe is equally ridiculous as the Alonso/Barry debate that we have had in the summer of 2008 ...
 

ChicagoRed

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Ah yes, my favorite footballing cliche, form is temporary class is permanent. Somebody should hang that sign in Torres' locker.
 

gr_sounder

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Form is temporary. Class is permanent. Reina may not have been in top form the last few months but before that he has consistently been one of our top players for a few seasons. Just because he has not been at his best recently (along with many other players) does not mean he has suddenly turned into an average player.

And personally I also think that because we are used to him being so good, it also tends to make us a bit biased when assessing his performances. We expect him to stop most goals and always deal with crosses well so even when he has maybe only one or two lapses in the game we consider it a bad performance according to his standards (whereas if it was maybe some other keeper we might consider the same performance a good one).
I get tired of the whole... "form is temporary, class is permanent" line.
Form and Class are totally different things.
Class is manner of doing things.
Form is how well you actually do what you do.

If you have a choice of 2 goalkeepers... 1 has been the best keeper for the past 3 seasons, but this season is struggling (class)... the other has been on fire and stopping everything (form). Which do you want to have in your team? If you say the struggling keeper, then you're lying or not a very good manager. A better argument would be "form is temporary, talent is permanent"... but even that would be useless.

Anyway, those are of course extreme situatitons and not exactly what we have right now.
People look at Pepe and see the goalkeeper he was in 2008, or 20010. Guess what folks, it's 2012.
How long does it take for form to be non-temporary? I really need to know because if it's longer than 2 years, then I guess you're right. But right now he's average based on current form.

He has all the physical ability he ever had, but he's not playing particularly well. Even the argument that he's a great distributer of the ball has been laughable this season as on multiple occasions his distribution has been poor.

I just want to see signs that he's going to recover his former form... and I'll keep Brad Jones out of consideration.
 

Macedonian_Red

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Ah yes, my favorite footballing cliche, form is temporary class is permanent. Somebody should hang that sign in Torres' locker.
Well, someone has probably hanged that sign in Rush's locker at Juventus, so he has returned to his comfort zone and re-gained his top class level again ...
 

gr_sounder

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Form is temporary, class is permanent ... If Pepe is not on our team next season, or even is sold in January, it will be for financial reasons, not footballing ones ... This debate about Jones being the better option than Pepe is equally ridiculous as the Alonso/Barry debate that we have had in the summer of 2008 ...
It's only ridiculous if you think that Pepe has been a much better keeper in games for Liverpool this year than Brad Jones.
Personally I dont' see much difference between the two.
 

ChicagoRed

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Well, someone has probably hanged that sign in Rush's locker at Juventus, so he has returned to his comfort zone and re-gained his top class level again ...
That's great for him. You know, once a player is dubbed 'class' he can at no point in his career drop to below class, or be called an average footballer. I'm suprised the reverse is even possible...
 

Macedonian_Red

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It's only ridiculous if you think that Pepe has been a much better keeper in games for Liverpool this year than Brad Jones.
Personally I dont' see much difference between the two.
Like I have said in that post you have quoted, Alonso was pretty poor during the 2007/08 season ... So poor, that Rafa has put him on the market, and was planning to replace him with Gareth Barry ... Now, I believe that you remember how has Alonso performed the following season ...