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The keeper Situation

FreakLFC

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Oct 30, 2012
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We have to keep him coz he is LFC through and through. He loves LFC.
But Jones is doing a magnificent job and at the moment he is giving some really tough competition.

People saying keepers peak at 30 are all right but a young and athletic keeper in a team is also the same and maybe more beneficial. eg Hart at City- Young and outstanding keeper. Al habsi at Wigan.

That's a tough call LFC. I hope they make a right decision.
 

ChicagoRed

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We have to keep him coz he is LFC through and through. He loves LFC.
But Jones is doing a magnificent job and at the moment he is giving some really tough competition.

People saying keepers peak at 30 are all right but a young and athletic keeper in a team is also the same and maybe more beneficial. eg Hart at City- Young and outstanding keeper. Al habsi at Wigan.

That's a tough call LFC. I hope they make a right decision.
Al Habsi is 30 years old mate.
 

gr_sounder

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Like I have said in that post you have quoted, Alonso was pretty poor during the 2007/08 season ... So poor, that Rafa has put him on the market, and was planning to replace him with Gareth Barry ... Now, I believe that you remember how has Alonso performed the following season ...
I agree with you but.... what's your point?
I even mentioned in my response earlier that I thought Pepe could rebound and become the player he once was. I also said I believe he has more natural talent than Jones. But the main thing is he's not playing like that, and I need to see some reason why I think he'll come good again before I put him back on the field over someone who is playing marginally better (my opinion) and looks like he is working harder at improving.

Goalkeeper is a special position on the field because you only get one of them (curiously it's also the only position on the field you MUST have in order to play a game) so you must pick 1 of them and only 1 of them.

Al Habsi is 30 years old mate.
And he'll be 31 in a month.... but you should never let facts get in the way of a good story.
 

gr_sounder

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My point is that you stick with your class players through their bad spells, and get rewarded with top class performances again, once the bad spell is over ...
That's what I thought you were saying, but I wanted you to come out and say it rather than just imply it incase you were saying something else.

Sticking with class players through bad spells gets you rewarded once the bad spell is over, is your plan... so tell me....
How can you be sure the bad spell is temporary?
How long do you wait it out?
Joe Cole was class at a time... is his form still temporary?
I hate to be the bearer of bad news but sometimes players just don't recover their previous glory.

Look I know what you're saying, and over short periods I agree with you, you try to work with the player and get them back to their peak or at least close. All players do go through poor runs of form. But my problem is when the bad run of form lasts for an extended period of time. As I've said earlier, I don't think Pepe has been "excellent" for about a year, but rather has been a big part of the reason our defense was giving up goals. I just don't see how he "absolutely" gives us a better chance of winning a game at this point than Jones does. If he can show me something that gives me cause to think he's going back to his former glory... then great! I just haven't seen it from him and I've been hoping to see it for quite some time.
 
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I get tired of the whole... "form is temporary, class is permanent" line.
Form and Class are totally different things.
Class is manner of doing things.
Form is how well you actually do what you do.

If you have a choice of 2 goalkeepers... 1 has been the best keeper for the past 3 seasons, but this season is struggling (class)... the other has been on fire and stopping everything (form). Which do you want to have in your team? If you say the struggling keeper, then you're lying or not a very good manager. A better argument would be "form is temporary, talent is permanent"... but even that would be useless.

Anyway, those are of course extreme situatitons and not exactly what we have right now.
People look at Pepe and see the goalkeeper he was in 2008, or 20010. Guess what folks, it's 2012.
How long does it take for form to be non-temporary? I really need to know because if it's longer than 2 years, then I guess you're right. But right now he's average based on current form.

He has all the physical ability he ever had, but he's not playing particularly well. Even the argument that he's a great distributer of the ball has been laughable this season as on multiple occasions his distribution has been poor.

I just want to see signs that he's going to recover his former form... and I'll keep Brad Jones out of consideration.
Form and class are exactly two different things and the reason I used the quote. Pepe may not be in the best of form but he is a class player who has earned that status through years of top performances week in week out. You were suggesting that you would be surprised to see him in the team next season based on a few months of average-good performances and the fact that our 3rd choice keeper has done better than expected. I like Jones and commend his performances after becoming 1st choice keeper following Reina's injury. However, I still do not think he has performed well enough consistently to warrant him becoming our long term keeping option over a quality player like Reina.

And like I said before I believe there is a bias when comparing the performances of Jones and Reina. Because Jones has done better than expected we automatically tend to think of him as having performed well even if in actual fact he may have been performing at the same level as Reina. If Jones makes a couple of mistakes but also a few good saves it comes across as him having done his job well. On the other hand if Reina made those same couple of mistakes we think that his performance was uncharacteristic and he did poorly. I have seen the same thing happen with players like Gerrard and Suarez.

Certainly Reina needs to improve his performances if he is to get to the level we have seen from him in the past but I trust him to do that playing on the pitch rather than sitting on the bench. However, if he does that he won't elevate his level to the same as Jones but rather to the same level as some of the best keepers in the League. I do not think he is being deliberately kept out of the squad like you were alluding to earlier. He will come back once he's recovered but this time knowing that he has increased competition from Jones.
 

gr_sounder

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Form and class are exactly two different things and the reason I used the quote. Pepe may not be in the best of form but he is a class player who has earned that status through years of top performances week in week out. You were suggesting that you would be surprised to see him in the team next season based on a few months of average-good performances and the fact that our 3rd choice keeper has done better than expected.
Actually, that's not really what I said... you changed it.

What I said was that I would be surprised to see him next season at Liverpool because
1. He was having a poor spell that has lasted a year or more in which he has been "average". (You claimed I said he was having average-good performances for months).
2. He is playing like he's not focused and he doesn't seem to be enjoying himself with this team. Before anyone tells me "How do you know... you're not there?" that's true... but the player I see on the pitch and hear in interviews just doesn't seem like someone who is loving playing for this team right now. Again, I think he loves the club, but not this team - I think he still feels the sting of past seasons and past owners and past managers and that has changed his attitude somewhat. It's a guess, but an educated one as he acts differently now than he used to... but yes I could be wrong.

So... I don't mind people disagreeing with me... I just want to make sure its' for what I actually think and say.

And it still doesn't change my opinion that you can have someone who has been a class player for years, that doesn't necessarily make him the best option at the present (or for the future).
 
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Actually, that's not really what I said... you changed it.

What I said was that I would be surprised to see him next season at Liverpool because
1. He was having a poor spell that has lasted a year or more in which he has been "average". (You claimed I said he was having average-good performances for months).
2. He is playing like he's not focused and he doesn't seem to be enjoying himself with this team. Before anyone tells me "How do you know... you're not there?" that's true... but the player I see on the pitch and hear in interviews just doesn't seem like someone who is loving playing for this team right now. Again, I think he loves the club, but not this team - I think he still feels the sting of past seasons and past owners and past managers and that has changed his attitude somewhat. It's a guess, but an educated one as he acts differently now than he used to... but yes I could be wrong.

So... I don't mind people disagreeing with me... I just want to make sure its' for what I actually think and say.

And it still doesn't change my opinion that you can have someone who has been a class player for years, that doesn't necessarily make him the best option at the present (or for the future).
I think you misinterpreted what I was trying to say with that sentence. What I meant was:

"You were suggesting that you would be surprised to see him in the team next season..." (your opinion)

"...based on a few months of average-good performances and the fact that our 3rd choice keeper has done better than expected." (my opinion)

Like I said in the following paragraph how well or poorly he has done is open to debate. I personally think he hasn't done as badly as it appears and certainly before he got injured he did start putting in some good performances (even if still not at the same high level we expect from him).
 

gr_sounder

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I think you misinterpreted what I was trying to say with that sentence. What I meant was:

"You were suggesting that you would be surprised to see him in the team next season..." (your opinion)

"...based on a few months of average-good performances and the fact that our 3rd choice keeper has done better than expected." (my opinion)

Like I said in the following paragraph how well or poorly he has done is open to debate. I personally think he hasn't done as badly as it appears and certainly before he got injured he did start putting in some good performances (even if still not at the same high level we expect from him).
Fair enough... and thanks for the clarification... I did indeed misinterpret what you wrote.
 

SirBillShankly

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I can't help but think alot of people are totally over-reacting to his absence.

Maybe, just maybe, he hasn't fully recovered from his injury?? Just a thought.
 

wembley 65

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Form is temporary, class is permanent ... If Pepe is not on our team next season, or even is sold in January, it will be for financial reasons, not footballing ones ... This debate about Jones being the better option than Pepe is equally ridiculous as the Alonso/Barry debate that we have had in the summer of 2008 ...
did you ever see nigel clough in a liverpool shirt??
 

steveee

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umm I'm not going to take anything away from Jones as he has done better than I expected but he is still not someone that should be starting for Liverpool every week. He is not idea first off for Rodgers system and he is to scary when playing ball in the air that come into the box. I believe Rodgers will bring someone in new to replace Reina before next season. I also think Jones is gone as well before next season... I would say Jones is gone for sure as he can not do what Rodgers wants most from his keepers. Reina's form has not been good for a couple of seasons I really don't think he will ever be recognized as one of the best keepers in the league again like some think.

I will say we will have 2 new keepers before next season starts. 1 for sure

I think Pepe will be back starting for us sooner rather than later despite what Jones is doing. I don't look at Jones play and say wow.. he looks great. anyone who does really has very low expectations imo...
 

gr_sounder

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umm I'm not going to take anything away from Jones as he has done better than I expected but he is still not someone that should be starting for Liverpool every week. He is not idea first off for Rodgers system and he is to scary when playing ball in the air that come into the box. I believe Rodgers will bring someone in new to replace Reina before next season. I also think Jones is gone as well before next season... I would say Jones is gone for sure as he can not do what Rodgers wants most from his keepers. Reina's form has not been good for a couple of seasons I really don't think he will ever be recognized as one of the best keepers in the league again like some think.

I will say we will have 2 new keepers before next season starts. 1 for sure

I think Pepe will be back starting for us sooner rather than later despite what Jones is doing. I don't look at Jones play and say wow.. he looks great. anyone who does really has very low expectations imo...
I agree with you... on most of this. My thoughts on Jones are more along the lines that he's done better than I expected, but I don't think he'll ever be a star.
I do believe that Pepe will be the starter for most of the rest of the year and then we'll decide if he's back for good or heads out.
My bigger question is... is Gulacsi the type of young keeper that could potentially take over and be a star in a couple years? If so, then I try my best to keep Pepe another year or two and then let Gulacsi take over. If not, then we may sell Pepe at the end of the season and bring in someone younger that iwll hopefully be our goalie of the future.
 

Macedonian_Red

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How can you be sure the bad spell is temporary?
How long do you wait it out?
Joe Cole was class at a time... is his form still temporary?
1. With top class players, you simply know ... Pepe is a superbly talented and trained keeper, with great work ethics ...
2. As much as it takes ... It is not like he was leaking goals all over the place ... He only hasn't been brilliant as usual ...
3. Joe Cole was never a top class player ... You shouldn't believe the English media ...
 

mattyhurst

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"Tika Taka", "form is temporary, class is permanent" what other phrases are we going moan about on here
 

5euros

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I would like to think it is a matter of Pepe not being fully fit as opposed to him being dropped. To be hesitant on starting one of the few world class players we have is something I could not allow Brendan away with. Jones has stepped in well, but he is not even half the keeper Pepe is.
 

DEVGRU

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1. With top class players, you simply know ... Pepe is a superbly talented and trained keeper, with great work ethics ...
2. As much as it takes ... It is not like he was leaking goals all over the place ... He only hasn't been brilliant as usual ...
3. Joe Cole was never a top class player ... You shouldn't believe the English media ...
Joe Cole was a top class player..evident in the fact he has a league winner's medal and the fact he was one of the most sought after youngsters in a vibrant West Ham youth system alongside Lampard.
 

TFC

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I used to believe Class is permanent. Then I watched Torres at Chelsea.

Anyways - Pepe is still class, his form dipped a bit but he's still a great keeper and he'll be here for years to come.
 

DEVGRU

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I used to believe Class is permanent. Then I watched Torres at Chelsea.

Anyways - Pepe is still class, his form dipped a bit but he's still a great keeper and he'll be here for years to come.
Pepe will always be loved. No matter what.
 

mattyhurst

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If Pepe was fit he would at least be a sub, the fact he hasn't been shows he wasn't, offal says he is now fit and back at the weekend, so conspiracy theories can be put to bed
 

DEVGRU

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If Pepe was fit he would at least be a sub, the fact he hasn't been shows he wasn't, offal says he is now fit and back at the weekend, so conspiracy theories can be put to bed
Think people are going over board with conspiracy theories as far as Pepe is concerned because they haven't got anything else to write about. One guy started the thread and..here we are now...4 pages later.
 

Drian

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Pepe is class! And in my view and he is getting back to his best!

The wigan match was not the hardest contest but he made no mistakes and was reliable. But not that convinced me! Here is the interview from the offal:

Reina: I couldn't wait for that
http://www.liverpool...t-wait-for-that

It made me smile when I read those lines :) I feel the confidence and the will! And his passion for this Club :)

Brad gave us good moments and was really good, respect for that! But for me Pepe is No1 and will be for years to come and maybe the future Captain!

Hey, I love this man :) In Pepe I trust! YNWA
 

KingLuis7

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I think Pepe may well come back to form now - and to me it's all down to how Brad Jones played.

Nice big kick up the ass for Pepe. Hopefully he returns to he colossus between the posts that he used to be.