Discussion in 'The Albert - LFC Talk' started by YeGra, Sep 11, 2017.
I'm hoping Woodburn will be able to play a fuller part by then.
That Seville second goal...great big gaping hole infront of the defence that allowed the fella to receive the ball from the throw in and have space to split open the defence with a pass to the striker. No-one blocking him off. Too easy....easy peasy.
No one covering that critical area infront of the back four. No back four can do anything when there is no-one stopping the ball being played through the defence, like two goals vs City. The lack of a defensive midfielder will continue to cost us until Klopp has a eureka moment. DM is an art, it requires defensive nous, knowing where to position yourself, sensing danger, screening the back line, being able to cover runs, when to tackle, when to back off. You don't stick someone in the defensive midfield position and call him a defensive midfielder.
Henderson is a jack of all trades master of none. A defensive midfielder takes his position, Keita plays alongside the DM, then the attacking midfielder infront of them.
Keitas been very good as a 6 at Leipzig. Henderson still bursts forward and gets involved in attacks. Keita's better than Henderson defensively and offensively. He can play as an 8 or a 6 but he'll be our best option at 6 when he comes by a country mile while we have a number of players who can play the 8.
Not here with an answer to the question.
Henderson and Can were fucking crap tonight. Piss poor.
Tad surprised Henderson played after City. I get he's the captain but he's not right at the moment and is knackered
Think the game reinforces the need to re-think our midfield a bit more. Yes the defence was shocking but midfield had its issues as well. We looked tired in the end - either that or the wind went out of our sails after the Sevilla equaliser.
This is my position as well.
I think Hendo is a fine footballer. Fit and on form he takes one of those three positions.
But I think he is clearly struggling with fitness at the minute. That's why I've tended to leave him out of my selections.
Maybe Klopp thinks he needs to play through it?
I think it's the armband - which he shouldn't have, frankly, he's not a leader. The issue I'm having with Henderson is that the fit and on form matches are few and far between. If he's still struggling with his heel issues, then he needs to be man enough to tell the staff he's not there yet - because his performances are hurting the team. He was absolutely horrendous against City, and again last night.
Agree that Henderson and Can were very poor. Same old same old. To be fair Henderson has improved but Can way too inconsistent. The Spansih press really laying into Can from what i can see. He has not really kicked on. Milner probably would have been better and may have scored the penalty!
Against Seville, it's not that there was a hole in front of the CBs, it's that there was a gaping hole between the CBs. Look where Hendo was in that play - doing exactly what the DM is supposed to do. The only way he could be where you think he should be for throw, is if he didnt do his job on the sequence that led to throw. Once the ball went out he was probably the only player we had to actually busted a nut to recover, all the while Matip stood and watched after being 10-15 yards too wide.
What we have seen this season is outrageous mistakes and laxness from our CBs and people who want an out and out DM in the side blaming that on our lack of one. Might having a different player with a different priority in the side helped us to not concede the goal against Burnley? possibly. Some of those against City? Possibly. Against Seville? Only if we had 2. You know what would definitely have helped though? CBs who didnt have their thumbs up their arse just standing around and watching. Sure, CBs can be exposed without adequate protection in front of them. That does not excuse CBs exposing themselves though.
I apologize to differ with you on the subject of the throw-in, but that deep in your zone the #6 should not still be dropped in between the two CB. That position is for the middle third of the pitch and into the attacking zone when the FB's have kicked on to wing support and the CB's spread to cover the channels on a counter. DM plays straight up the middle of the pitch until the attack gets situated deep enough he can shift forward to support the attack and leave the two CB alone.
Henderson is (supposed to be) the shield, which breaks up play in front of the two, not playing the cleanup between them.
He got turned because he was out of position, as were the other two CM on the day. He cannot spot the threats and organize, hence why he shouldn't be forced to fill that role. It's not a natural spot for him after so many years in the #8 in front of Gerrard/Lucas
I'm feeling very romantically inclined towards a proper defensive midfielder right now. One that holds that position well, barely moves out of the zone and keeps ticking over the passes. I don't see a lot of them around at the moment. Must be one out there. Keita is a boxtobox, as is Can and Henderson and Wijnaldum and even Coutinho. This is a position that does not need to be the best player on the field. Just has to keep it simple. But they always have to be good technical players - very good shielders, turners and ball winners/intercepters. it's a position that frees up everyone else to express themselves. Most of our midfielders goof off and drift out of position or are poor on the turn and shield. I'd like to see Henderson as one of our rotating boxtobox guys. He can force a game with sheer determination, speed and strength. But he's stuck in a role that doesn't suit him.
Midfield has been a real bug bear of mine for a while now. We're missing someone who can actually control a game and someone who really bosses it too. Gets nasty if need be. The amount of times that the midfield has left our defence hanging in the wind is ridiculous.
Not sure Keita would have helped but he does look like someone who's prepared to get stuck in so that would be welcome.
For me Henderson is a good player but not the player we need. The midfield we need only needs 1 or at most 2 of Can, Henderson and Gini. New blood needed in my book and that has always been case since Klopp's arrival and actually during Rodgers time for that matter. He was trying to shoe horn Gerrard into this role and it didn't work defensively at all. The issue hasn't gone away and that's probably the most frustrating thing about it.
Indeed but there is some though that a DM should drop in sometimes. Our full backs are high which means one central defender needs to push out (or someone else drops into the hole). When the defender pushes out perhaps the DM should drop in a little.
However, overall my biggest observation is that we often fail to be compact. The times where I see the defensive line being too deep or the midfield line is simply too high or both is often when we get problems. Take Seville's second goal as a prime example. Midfield were far too high and essentially out of position. Switching off didn't help either
Gone were the days where you have one fella sitting right in the middle of the pitch close to the centre halves in our side. A defensive midfielder who can only defend and can't do anything else will be a waste of space in Klopp's side though. He prefers players that could also bring the ball out, occasional dash into the box or take a shot on goal and get involve in goal scoring opportunities. He also tend to go with players with pace as well and defensive midfielders with abundance of pace to burn is very, very, very hard to come by.
I don't think we needed a guy who just sits back and shield the defence. Most of our goals are lapsed of concentration from the centre halves and fullbacks. I am not going to use Man City as an example because that was purely Klopp's crazy idea of having a go at City after we were down 10-men, and also failed to motivate the player to keep it tight. But the games like Watford, Burnley and Sevilla, it was all down to lapse of concentration by the centre halves and fullbacks. Even if we have a defensive midfielder won't be able to do much because the ball and play has gone beyond him to do anything, and we concede due to failing to win the ball back by fullbacks, centre halves don't know what to do when player is between the two of them, or allowing easy crosses to go past them.
What I miss in terms of midfield is a guy who could control the tempo and sending a seeking pass to his teammates, long or short range. I think we missed the player that could shield the ball under his possession, making swift decision when receiving the ball in the middle of the pitch and read movement not only from our players but opposing players as well. Control the tempo to make a quick attack or slow down the moves to retain possession. Henderson should be able to do that, unfortunately something must have happened which saw his form dip so badly, he could not even keep the ball when being pressed and took too damn long to release a pass.
Well, they do much more than defend. they can pass the ball to someone in a better position. Since our guys find it so hard to track back, we might as well change one into a more positional player - seems to cost us points when they're out of position. And a DM can also be a tempo man. so, we just have to find the right one. Easy!!!!
He did. In the sequence of play that led to the throw in. Seville were able to exploit that space not because we dont have a DM or Hendo isnt up for it, but simply because they responded to the restart much better than we did, much like Hoffenheim did to Bayern the other week.
I've been pondering the solution since last year. Like others have said our midfield is simply average. With thw addition of Salah it pushes Coutinho into the number 10 attacking mid. Aside from Couts, who in our midfield would instantly find a starting role for the top three clubs in the prem?
Gini? Can? Hendo? Ox? Lallana (when healthy)
I'll only list their top 5 midfield players as if i get deeper it would be debatable.
United : Herrera, Matic, Mata, Mhkitaryan, Pogba
City : de bruyne, david Silva , bernardo Silva, fernandinho, sterling
Chelsea: Hazard, Willian, Pedro, Bakayoko, Kante
Top 5 midfield players from the top 3 teams. We don't have any specialists. We have multipurpose players. We don't even have a DM and with the exception of coutinho and lallana when he comes back only have one attacking midfielder . Our depth is pretty thin. Unfortunately our midfielders arent world class let alone enough to challenge for the prem.
I still have hope that Klopp gets some development out of Grujic and Ox. But he has to let them play more than 10 minutes at the end of lost games
No question. DM needs to step out especially when the CB are at the 18.
If there is room in that part of the pitch for a DM to play between the two CB, then Klopp has our formation morphing to a back-5 on occasion (which we have seen). In the case of the Sevilla match, I suspect the lads fell suspect to becoming mentally tired at that stage or forgot what they were supposed to be doing.
This tiredness is what I fear will be an end-result of "heavy metal football" to a degree. Going full-on for 90 mins every match will take it's toll on the boys. Need a little more ebb-and-flow to level out
Agreed but when we're higher up the pitch is the scenario I'm taking about. The way I see it one full back pushes on (both shouldn't), the central defender on that side steps out sideways to fill the gap and the DM drops. This keeps a 4 in he back line and allows the full backs to maintain width.
However what I often see is a full back gone high and then no one fills the gap and to compound matters the back line are often too deep meaning there's this huge space between the midfield and out back line. Very often the midfield have pushed on making the problem even worse.
One of the reasons the defence ends up so far back creating space between defence and midfield is the type of keeper(s) we are fielding. Need a sweeper keeper to push the defence up narrowing that space.
The OP was about the soft equalizer we let in...hence why we are discussing diff events
Forget about just one instance though (our whole defensive set up is a shambles). There will always be a gap between the two central defenders (unless they hold each other's hands). Was there anything wrong with the gap between Carra and Hyypia first half in Istanbul when the ball was constantly played through them from midfield? They were watertight in the knockout rounds, Rafa suddenly took out the defensive midfielder and for 45 minutes it was carnage.
The DM plugs that gap. It's why Wes Morgan said having Kante infront of him and Huth was like having an extra player on the field. Yes our back four is shocking, but don't care how good they are, if the midfield offer zero protected the back four will be cut to ribbons. Coming into the starting XI in early 2016, Casemiro transformed Madrid from a team that leaked goals and lost points, to one that has won 2 CL titles and a La Liga in 18 months...he is rightly regarded by Zidane as their most important player, as Makelele was in the previous great Madrid side before the whole thing crumbed when he went to Chelsea. C Ronaldo has been scoring goals by the bucketload since he joined Madrid yet only had 1 La Liga prior to the change in the team under Zidane.
Hendo ain't a DM. It's the old Lucas chestnut. Just because you appear there in the teamsheet doesn't make you one. It's specialist position. We do not have one in the squad. Jordan is a jack of all trades master of none...Keita is his direct replacement as he is similar to Jordan in being an all rounder, but a top class one. A defensive midfielder brought in to play alongside Keita would give us the perfect balance in central midfield. It would be a major step in shoring up the defensive weakness in the team, while the back four itself needs a top central defender at the very least.
That second Leicester goal, Grujic and Henderson went walk about and were caught behind play. A genuine defensive midfielder would not get caught out like this. Here son have a free run in towards goal.
The back four is weak, but the zero protection infront of them compounds it.
This is a team that is set up to be picked off, and has done routinely since Klopp has been here.
We need a very physical midfielder, one who is strong in the tackle, positionally sound, good at winning the ball, but can also lay on a good pass when need be or quickly play it to his more creative midfield partner if that's the better option.
Know anyone who fits the bill?
It's still early days, but the way we're playing at the moment I'd be sorely tempted to bin the whole lot of them next summer and start again. Have a proper DM shielding the back four (Kessié would be perfect but he appears to be heading for Milan at the end of his loan period there); Keita in the box-to-box role and then Coutinho (or Woodburn, if Phil leaves) in the advanced playmaker role.
But... but.... will Keita be enough ?
The shocking thing is the trust giving by klopp to the average players we have , let's be honest , Salah , Bobby , Cou and Mane are the only ones who can reach the high level at one point in their career ( at another club maybe ? )
When we hired JK , i thougt he was the kind of manager who only rates quality , ruthless etc ..
But since he joined , it seems like he is driven by sentiments ( the like of Henderson still captain and beyond all logical sens , an automatic starter , The Lovren case , Mignolet etc ..)
I still have faith in him , but he need to go in a pragmatic way if he want to be backed , no one can support another period of mediocrity , either the board or the fans .
How do you know that we haven't been trying to sell these players without success? Maybe nobody wants them, as their wages are too high and their performances too uninspiring, or maybe the players don't want to take a step down to a smaller club?
At the end of the day, it isn't as easy to get rid of underperforming players as many seem to think.
If he considred they are not good enough , why not benching them ? , the problem is , he rates them , that's why he keep playing them every week .