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The midfield - What's the answer?



cynicaloldgit

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why not benching them ? , the problem is , he rates them , that's why he keep playing them every week .
Or he has no options. Who else is there? As far as the midfield goes, Grujic is still too rash; Milner's past it; Ox is (hopefully) still settling in. Lovren has to play because Gomez is still finding his way back after a long lay-off; I'd like to see Ward replace Mignolet but Klopp obviously favours the latter's experience.

I'm sure Klopp will make changes- he isn't stupid- but they take time.
 
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Klopptinho

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Or he has no options. Who else is there? As far as the midfield goes, Grujic is still too rash; Milner's past it; Ox is (hopefully) still settling in. Lovren has to play because Gomez is still finding his way back after a long lay-off; I'd like to see Ward replace Mignolet but Klopp obviously favours the latter's experience.

I'm sure Klopp will make changes- he isn't stupid- but they take time.
ox spent one half fucking about with his socks and shinnys as @Scott Jones said and the other half trying to work out where is arsenal badge had gone from his shirt .. apart from that.. i thought he was amazing . harsh criticism from some .
 

lfc.eddie

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ox spent one half fucking about with his socks and shinnys as @Scott Jones said and the other half trying to work out where is arsenal badge had gone from his shirt .. apart from that.. i thought he was amazing . harsh criticism from some .
Maybe we forgot to increase his attributes and save the game before the match starts.... forgot to turn on that cheat codes?
 

KCollins

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Keita looks awesome at everything, but once he bombs forward that leaves a gap behind him, that's where a natural sitter comes in.

There's been too many players saying the same thing, Hargreaves and Hamann to name but two, that we need protection infront of the back four. Didi wanted us to bring in Matic, while Hargreaves has said we should have two defensive midfielders (Keita could be the second one, albeit a very versatile one). Keita and our front four would score goals by the bucketload, we don't need to have more players going forward.


It's still early days, but the way we're playing at the moment I'd be sorely tempted to bin the whole lot of them next summer and start again. Have a proper DM shielding the back four (Kessié would be perfect but he appears to be heading for Milan at the end of his loan period there); Keita in the box-to-box role and then Coutinho (or Woodburn, if Phil leaves) in the advanced playmaker role.
To me its common sense. Look at pretty much any successful team and you will see a balance in midfield. Our lot are too busy going forward to even think about the vulnerability behind them. They don't have defensive instincts so they don't sense danger. Gary Gillespie said it on LFCTV yesterday, defenders should always expect the worst which means they are constantly switched on, always alert to make a clearance..our current lot expect someone else to clear the ball so they go on a wander. This comes down to Klopp. He's a very positive person and expects things to go well, but this mentality leads to cavalier defending. He hasn't shown any defensive nous at all. Yes we don't have the personnel, but he's been here two years and done nothing about it. The fella has lost five finals on the trot. Contrast this with Mourinho who wins almost all of his. Games where you need to be watertight, give nothing away. I said before I think he needs help from a defensive standpoint. One who thinks defensively, sees danger. Hamann. It's been school boy stuff under Klopp.
 



Abdel

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Or he has no options. Who else is there? As far as the midfield goes, Grujic is still too rash; Milner's past it; Ox is (hopefully) still settling in. Lovren has to play because Gomez is still finding his way back after a long lay-off; I'd like to see Ward replace Mignolet but Klopp obviously favours the latter's experience.

I'm sure Klopp will make changes- he isn't stupid- but they take time.
He had 4 transfert window to fix that , he didn't .
 

zman89

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The sooner we realise Henderson and Gini are not good enough to be starters for us the better. We can then start building a good midfield. Keita seems like he will be a perfect fit. Coutinho, if he's still here, will play next to him. All we would need is a proper DM. If N'Zonzi was at least 3 years younger he would have been perfect for us. Alas, we need to find someone else. If these two players continue starting for us we won't shit.
 

lfc.eddie

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If N'Zonzi was at least 3 years younger he would have been perfect for us.
If we picked N'Zonzi up at that point in time I am pretty sure you would have been screaming and kicking that we just bought players that are playing for relegation fodders like Blackburn and Stoke.
 

zman89

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If we picked N'Zonzi up at that point in time I am pretty sure you would have been screaming and kicking that we just bought players that are playing for relegation fodders like Blackburn and Stoke.
I would have, that's true. But not until I've seen him play for us, just like I do with many of the players we've signed and thought they were shit before we signed them and when playing with us.
 

lfc.eddie

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I would have, that's true. But not until I've seen him play for us, just like I do with many of the players we've signed and thought they were shit before we signed them and when playing with us.
So what you're saying is you would view the player as shit before they are our player, until you've seen them play for us and thought they are still shit when they play with us? Sounds a bit confusing to me....
 



zman89

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So what you're saying is you would view the player as shit before they are our player, until you've seen them play for us and thought they are still shit when they play with us? Sounds a bit confusing to me....
As an example, I didn't really think that much of Sturridge. I quickly changed my mind over that though, as he quickly showed he is class. Moreno is a player I thought would be suspect defensively, to say the least, but I actually gave him his first season before writing him off. Needless to say I think we should have sold him about two years ago.
 

Noo Noo

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I was hoping that the lack of midfield strengthening this Summer wouldn't bite. It appears to be doing so already with a few players off colour. We dont have the depth in that area and its showing with having to play inexperienced players or players that just simply not performing.

We really need a tactical change to make sure the team as a whole becomes far more compact. In defence that is. Still need a rethink going forward against the park the bus sides. Robertson has the right idea getting round the back.
 

Danny Sarge

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Henderson has never been a number 6, the only reason he may look the part in that role is because of the quick press we play and he doesn't stop running so he looks effective but from a defensive stand point hes not anywhere near the standard of the DM that should be playing for us in that role, the majority of opposition players who run with the ball at Henderson are usually successful in beating him and keeping the ball. I dont blame him for that because thats not his position.

What we really need is 2 midfielders like we used to have in front of the back four. (2 midfielders of a decent quality who know how to play that role)
Hamann & Gerrard, Sissoko & Alonso or Mascherano & Alonso used to protect the back four constantly on a regular basis, besides we have enough attacking firepower with our front 3/4 players to be leaving holes throughout our midfield we have to start protecting the rest of the team.

Lallana is missed, but i also agree that Grujic deserves a chance.
 

lfc.eddie

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As an example, I didn't really think that much of Sturridge. I quickly changed my mind over that though, as he quickly showed he is class. Moreno is a player I thought would be suspect defensively, to say the least, but I actually gave him his first season before writing him off. Needless to say I think we should have sold him about two years ago.
I don't think there is much one could do when the club decided to sign a player, either you accept the player or whine about them. Either way, it doesn't say you would not be having doubts about N'Zonzi when he was at Stoke to move to our club at that time. That itself says there are no guarantees a player would suit us, and hindsight is always good to have but not as something you could use to prove a player is worth his salt in our club before they are one of our player.
 

zman89

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I don't think there is much one could do when the club decided to sign a player, either you accept the player or whine about them. Either way, it doesn't say you would not be having doubts about N'Zonzi when he was at Stoke to move to our club at that time. That itself says there are no guarantees a player would suit us, and hindsight is always good to have but not as something you could use to prove a player is worth his salt in our club before they are one of our player.
I know there are no guarantees, but the thing is we haven't targeted a DM. If we tried to fix the problem and we didn't succeed I would still be pissed but I wouldn't be that concerned, because at least we tried to rectify the situation. IMO we won't win anything significant with Henderson as a starter at DM. Some people may disagree and of course I hope I'm proven wrong. I only bitch and complain because I want the club to do well.
 



lfc.eddie

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I know there are no guarantees, but the thing is we haven't targeted a DM.
Here in lies the problem, fans wanting the manager to target a defensive midfielder, which is something he does not seem to think he needs and not part of his structure. So why would he buy a defensive midfielder if he doesn't seem to think it is a priority?
 

zman89

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Here in lies the problem, fans wanting the manager to target a defensive midfielder, which is something he does not seem to think he needs and not part of his structure. So why would he buy a defensive midfielder if he doesn't seem to think it is a priority?
Then he'll end up the same way as his predecessor ended cause we ain't gonna win big trophies. It's a pity cause Keita and Coutinho with a DM would be amazing. We have enough fire power as it is, one less player won't make that much of a difference.
 

Noo Noo

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Here in lies the problem, fans wanting the manager to target a defensive midfielder, which is something he does not seem to think he needs and not part of his structure. So why would he buy a defensive midfielder if he doesn't seem to think it is a priority?
Yeah that seems to be the general consensus which will miraculously solve our defensive issues. I'm not in 100% agreement with that. We had Lucas and we still gave too many opportunities away.

We certainly need a different blend of player in the middle of the park. We lack a real general / controlling influence. Henderson isn't it, never was, never will be.

personally I belive our biggest issue is that we are really sloppy formation wise. Just simply not tight enough, not close enough together. Its far too easy to find space behind the full backs or between the lines. That's where the blend of players comes in as they naturally fill those gaps.

Problem is we cant buy until January so we're stuck unless we come up with some tactical change.
 

Semmy

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We need a very physical midfielder, one who is strong in the tackle, positionally sound, good at winning the ball, but can also lay on a good pass when need be or quickly play it to his more creative midfield partner if that's the better option.

Know anyone who fits the bill?
Let's pretend that the usual suspects aren't available, and we'll need to be looking for a diamond in the rough. So who do you send your scouts to appraise?

I suggested Tolisso and Kessie last season, they have both moved to Bayern and Milan. So here are two whose defensive interceptions and tackling have impressed. Trouble is knowing they can perform at the next level.


 

lfc.eddie

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Then he'll end up the same way as his predecessor ended cause we ain't gonna win big trophies. It's a pity cause Keita and Coutinho with a DM would be amazing. We have enough fire power as it is, one less player won't make that much of a difference.
Not necessarily the case, it all depends on how the system is being implemented. After Roy Keane, Ferguson didn't exactly have a defensive midfielder but still went on to win league titles and champs league. So it all depends on how the team is being setup, not every manager uses defensive midfielders solely to break up play.
 



KCollins

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Henderson has never been a number 6, the only reason he may look the part in that role is because of the quick press we play and he doesn't stop running so he looks effective but from a defensive stand point hes not anywhere near the standard of the DM that should be playing for us in that role, the majority of opposition players who run with the ball at Henderson are usually successful in beating him and keeping the ball. I dont blame him for that because thats not his position.

What we really need is 2 midfielders like we used to have in front of the back four. (2 midfielders of a decent quality who know how to play that role)
Hamann & Gerrard, Sissoko & Alonso or Mascherano & Alonso used to protect the back four constantly on a regular basis, besides we have enough attacking firepower with our front 3/4 players to be leaving holes throughout our midfield we have to start protecting the rest of the team.

Lallana is missed, but i also agree that Grujic deserves a chance.
He's not a defensive midfielder. He's similar to Stevie (in his last few seasons) in that he plays in that area but lacks any defensive nous. Can hardly remember a game Stevie played in central midfield where we didn't get battered defensively.

Keita is Hendo's direct replacement. They both are both box to box type players but Keita is a massive upgrade. Not the best comparison but it's like Rush and Aldridge...Aldo was a damn good player but Rush a notch above.
Here in lies the problem, fans wanting the manager to target a defensive midfielder, which is something he does not seem to think he needs and not part of his structure. So why would he buy a defensive midfielder if he doesn't seem to think it is a priority?
Here in lies the problem, things continue as they are now then Klopp won't be here for long. It's not just fans calling for defensive protection in midfield it's top players.

We have not had a genuine defensive midfielder since Mascherano, and since then we have leaked goals by the bucketload. A DM isn't the sole answer to all our ills obviously, but it would be a major step forward. The amount of times an opposing player has free reign to split open a defence (Man City twice, Seville once) or take a shot from distance unopposed (Leicester) because there is no defensive midfielder protecting the back four is endless.

A top defensive midfielder and a top central defender (Van Dijk ideally), and a back four that kept its shape (no full backs caught way upfield out of position) we would stop being the easiest team in the league to score against. We have more than enough weapons in attack to do the damage.
 

AussieLad

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He's not a defensive midfielder. He's similar to Stevie (in his last few seasons) in that he plays in that area but lacks any defensive nous. Can hardly remember a game Stevie played in central midfield where we didn't get battered defensively.

Keita is Hendo's direct replacement. They both are both box to box type players but Keita is a massive upgrade. Not the best comparison but it's like Rush and Aldridge...Aldo was a damn good player but Rush a notch above.

Here in lies the problem, things continue as they are now then Klopp won't be here for long. It's not just fans calling for defensive protection in midfield it's top players.

We have not had a genuine defensive midfielder since Mascherano, and since then we have leaked goals by the bucketload. A DM isn't the sole answer to all our ills obviously, but it would be a major step forward. The amount of times an opposing player has free reign to split open a defence (Man City twice, Seville once) or take a shot from distance unopposed (Leicester) because there is no defensive midfielder protecting the back four is endless.

A top defensive midfielder and a top central defender (Van Dijk ideally), and a back four that kept its shape (no full backs caught way upfield out of position) we would stop being the easiest team in the league to score against. We have more than enough weapons in attack to do the damage.
That is actually a harsh comparison to make. As much as I love Rushie, Aldo was the better striker both in his time with us and in his overall career and scored at over 1 in 2 where as Rushie was less than 1 in 3.
 

KCollins

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Not necessarily the case, it all depends on how the system is being implemented. After Roy Keane, Ferguson didn't exactly have a defensive midfielder but still went on to win league titles and champs league. So it all depends on how the team is being setup, not every manager uses defensive midfielders solely to break up play.
That's a valid point, and it's something I've thought about when going over successful teams. Hargreaves broke up play (when not injured) but with Scholes and Carrick United didn't have a defensive midfielder as you say. What he did have was two players who were excellent at keeping possession, both great passers of the ball, neither wasteful, and both were also very composed in keeping their position. They also had Ferdinand and Vidic in behind them, for me without a doubt the best central defensive pair in the league. Ferdinand had fantastic mobility to cover the area just in behind the central midfield pair.

It's a very unique set of circumstances there. It can work, but you need every single ingredient which is rare. We had a back four in Carra and Hyypia who weren't the most mobile. We had Stevie who could never play alongside Alonso. Stevie never had the composure to just sit in midfield and keep things ticking along, he was constantly itching to do something. So a Hollywood pass would give up possession, or he'd go forward and leave Alonso stranded (the way he got turned by Kaka in Istanbul before Kaka played that sublime pass that split open the back four for Crespo's second).

A defensive midfielder covers up the deficiencies...and almost every team has deficiencies.
 

KCollins

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That is actually a harsh comparison to make. As much as I love Rushie, Aldo was the better striker both in his time with us and in his overall career and scored at over 1 in 2 where as Rushie was less than 1 in 3.
I wasn't equating Aldo to Henderson ability wise. The gulf between Hendo and Keita is mammoth in comparison to Aldo and Rush.

The comparison was more a like for like change. Hendo is a jack of all trades master of none. Keita is a jack of all trades master of them all. Hendo is toast when Keita arrives. Similarly as good as Aldo was, Rush was the more clinical finisher, was faster...an upgrade (but not a Hendo to Keita level upgrade).
 

AussieLad

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I wasn't equating Aldo to Henderson ability wise. The gulf between Hendo and Keita is mammoth in comparison to Aldo and Rush.

The comparison was more a like for like change. Hendo is a jack of all trades master of none. Keita is a jack of all trades master of them all. Hendo is toast when Keita arrives. Similarly as good as Aldo was, Rush was the more clinical finisher, was faster...an upgrade (but not a Hendo to Keita level upgrade).
You are wrong though as Aldo scored 50 in 83 games with us and 363 in 673 over his career whilst Rushie scored 199 in 427 with us and 256 in 602 over his career.
 



KCollins

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You are wrong though as Aldo scored 50 in 83 games with us and 363 in 673 over his career whilst Rushie scored 199 in 427 with us and 256 in 602 over his career.
Aldo's former agent per chance?

Rush scored 356 goals with us. Rush wasn't just limited to the box like Aldo. He was clinical from everywhere. Rush was like a whippet and devastating on the break. He was also our first line of defence in chasing down defenders.

Aldo was a quality penalty box player, a poacher. Regards his stats, he came into arguably the most creative Liverpool team ever (certainly top 3), with Barnes at his absolute peak, and Beardsley tucked in behind him. Aldo was also an established player when he joined Liverpool, Rush was a raw youngster so he had that bedding in period.

I love Aldo, but there's a reason Rushie stayed and he did not (in today's game we could have kept both).
 

kwala

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Worrying about our midfield as opposed to our defence and goal keepers is like focusing on an itchy toe when you have a shotgun wound in your head.
 

Scott Jones

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Yeah,no worries about midfield they're just great:eh?:,Hendo has been poorer than Migs.:well done:
 

vjcpatriot

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Well I still hope we pick up a good midfielder and central defender during the winter window. I know transactions are rare during that time period but we hardly dipped our toe into our coffers in terms of net spending so I'd believe that Klopp has war funds at his disposal if we can make a couple of good deals he deems worthy.
 

ubermick

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Worrying about our midfield as opposed to our defence and goal keepers is like focusing on an itchy toe when you have a shotgun wound in your head.
They go hand in hand. The lack of nous, mobility, and spine in the middle of the park leaves that back line far more exposed than they should be.