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The Owners

LFC-Orlando

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JustHitMyHead said:
Nothing inherently wrong. They were never going to say... Reina is for sale, please low ball us.
OK, I see your point. So they "misrepresented the truth", and not just to the press, but to us too.

If that's in fact the case (trying to maximize Pepe's value) then they won't be able to play this card as well, in the future. Oh, and we'll end up with Brad as our back-up keeper in order to save more $, right?

We see again, why explanations should not be offered during the interviews. Have the interview of course, but smoothly avoid showing our cards.
 

redbill

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End July, net spend nearly zero. Carra gone, now Reina shifted - wages saved at the expense of experience and leadership.

Champions League here we come.
 

Red Island

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redbill said:
End July, net spend nearly zero. Carra gone, now Reina shifted - wages saved at the expense of experience and leadership.

Champions League here we come.
Financial stability so we survive as a club here we come.
 

Mascot88

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redbill said:
Mid-table financial security is not what this club stands for.
He didn't say 'midtable'. Knock it off.
 

redbill

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Mascot88 said:
He didn't say 'midtable'. Knock it off.
Did he need to? We are a mid-table club for the last four seasons.

Just my opinion, but common logic says that for us to compete at the top of the table we need the CL.

We are not going to get there by shifting our best players and looking for bargains.

Ergo, mid-table existence, which would suit the owners just fine.

The number of fans that has bought into this managed lowering of expectations is staggering.
 

RedJacko

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redbill said:
Did he need to? We are a mid-table club for the last four seasons.
Liverpool have not been a midtable club for the past few seasons in the slightest. Qualifying for Europe every season but last, winning the League Cup and getting to the FA Cup final does not constitute such labelling.
 

Spitfire

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redbill said:
Did he need to? We are a mid-table club for the last four seasons.

Just my opinion, but common logic says that for us to compete at the top of the table we need the CL.

We are not going to get there by shifting our best players and looking for bargains.

Ergo, mid-table existence, which would suit the owners just fine.

The number of fans that has bought into this managed lowering of expectations is staggering.
Sorry who are these best players we have shifted and replaced with bargains?

If you are referring to the high number of well paid under performing players that have been shed over the last couple of seasons, I can't quite work out what your issue is thats good management.

As for how we get back into the CL - that will take hard work, and the development of a good team - as we don't have the option of buying 6-8 20 million pound players, we are going to have to develop our players - hence why you see us buying some of the best younger talent going around.

As for your last two lines - maybe you should get a job in the media - clearly you have the knack for spouting utter crap.
 

ChicagoRed

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Arminius said:
I am just really glad the Red Sox have the best record in their league this season. Not because I give a damn about baseball, but so there is no more of that tiresome crap about there being some kind of crisis.
Well we clearly couldn't afford to pay Reina 110k a week sitting on the bench as soon as Pedroia inks his 100 million contract extension.
 

redbill

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Spitfire said:
As for how we get back into the CL - that will take hard work, and the development of a good team - as we don't have the option of buying 6-8 20 million pound players, we are going to have to develop our players - hence why you see us buying some of the best younger talent going around.
Hope springs eternal. The best young talents, as you put it, are unproven. Well all hope that they would mature and form the nucleus of title challenging team, but that is a game of great odds. All the seasons that we miss out on CL, our opponents are strengthening. Remember that.

As to which quality players have shifted and not replaced - our bald custodian might not be deemed good enough by a section of our own support, but the Spanish champions and Italian runner ups beg to differ. Mingolet can very well be better than Pepe, but he has not shown that it yet, not in our shirt. Why do we assume that there is only place for one quality goalkeeper in our squad? Did the manager not say that the Belgian was brought in to create a bit of competition for the spot? I suspect the money people have had their say about that.
 

redbill

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RedJacko said:
Liverpool have not been a midtable club for the past few seasons in the slightest. Qualifying for Europe every season but last, winning the League Cup and getting to the FA Cup final does not constitute such labelling.
In our last four league seasons we have finished 7th, 6th, 8th, 7th. That is the definition of mid-table side.

Winning the League Cup was great. Swansea won one.

Wigan won the FA Cup, then they got relegated.

I thought alluding to the league table one makes it clear that it is the league performances that are under discussion.
 

OLDIE

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People need to have a word with themselves.

The Owners have paid top wages and not received value for that money. The team has finished outside the top 4 for a few years now and its 3 years since we even broke into the top 6.

To continue with players that are earning MASSIVE money whilst their performances have not warranted the layout is madness. To get Pepe off the books for a year on loan with NO contribution to wages is good business. The reality is that Reina has been poor for three years and has needed a new start elsewhere.

I applaud Brendan for having the bottle to let him go on loan. If Mignolet proves to be a bad bit of business we can bring back Reina next summer, if not we can sell him.

The owners got the wool pulled over their eyes when they first came in and now they are a bit more savvy, the club is moving in a new direction and I am prepared to wait and see what September 1st looks like squad wise before giving it loads about the owners or Brendan.
 

Spitfire

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redbill said:
Hope springs eternal. The best young talents, as you put it, are unproven. Well all hope that they would mature and form the nucleus of title challenging team, but that is a game of great odds. All the seasons that we miss out on CL, our opponents are strengthening. Remember that.

As to which quality players have shifted and not replaced - our bald custodian might not be deemed good enough by a section of our own support, but the Spanish champions and Italian runner ups beg to differ. Mingolet can very well be better than Pepe, but he has not shown that it yet, not in our shirt. Why do we assume that there is only place for one quality goalkeeper in our squad? Did the manager not say that the Belgian was brought in to create a bit of competition for the spot? I suspect the money people have had their say about that.
I could think of a number of ways to better spend that 100k a week than letting a goalkeeper get splinters on his arse.

As for hope springing eternal by all means please - enlighten us with a better way we can move into the top 4 without racking up stupid levels of debt? It's easy to rmind people of potential problems - much harder to find a solution and apply it. Rodgers has a plan - it becoming fairly clear - while we may not always agree with it (me included) sometimes you at least have the give it a chance to bear fruit before you judge it.
 

TFC

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redbill said:
Did he need to? We are a mid-table club for the last four seasons.

Just my opinion, but common logic says that for us to compete at the top of the table we need the CL.

We are not going to get there by shifting our best players and looking for bargains.

Ergo, mid-table existence, which would suit the owners just fine.

The number of fans that has bought into this managed lowering of expectations is staggering.
Its hilarious that you would say "Common logic" in the same paragraph of saying that midtable would suit the owners just fine. Think it out for a minute - they need to increase the value of the club significantly in order to create any profit - so why would mid table existence be suitable to them?

They spent a lot of money buying the club, then spent an additional 80mp on it since then. Why would they happily watch the clubs value decline as it will if it remains mid table. The owners want the same thing as we do, they want success - although for different reasons, theirs might be purely financial, but they need the club to be successful if they have any chance of recouping their investment let alone making any profits.

Common logic. Don't preach what you don't practice mate.
 

LFC-Orlando

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All these conversations indicate that our owners are good businessmen and they mean well for the club.

They are just not capable of spending what's really needed for us to break into the top 4 with a higher degree of certainty, than hoping for a Dortmund-like story.

Their proforma for this "project" might have been more front-loaded in years 1 and 2 (as far as player investments). Because of the many "oops" that took place, now they are more gun-shy.

We are either on the "Arsenal protege" model, or on the "we will try to be a little better than Everton model". So, if it works really well we'll be 4th, and if it works so so, while Everton stop punching above their weight, we'll be either 5th or 6th.
 
S

showmethemoney

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LFC-Orlando said:
All these conversations indicate that our owners are good businessmen and they mean well for the club.

They are just not capable of spending what's really needed for us to break into the top 4 with a higher degree of certainty, than hoping for a Dortmund-like story.
Kind of agree with that mate.

I wonder what the genuine financial figures show since day one of when FSG came into Liverpool.

All incomings.
All outgoings.

I can't help but feel FSG have made & taken out a whole ton of cash since they've been here.
 

Spitfire

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showmethemoney said:
Kind of agree with that mate.

I wonder what the genuine financial figures show since day one of when FSG came into Liverpool.

All incomings.
All outgoings.

I can't help but feel FSG have made & taken out a whole ton of cash since they've been here.
Really - I can see a conscious choice not to throw good money after bad - removing under performers, securing better commercial deals, refining decision making and process structures. All of this points to a better run club - but as for taking money out of the club I can't say that I've seen any evidence of that yet.

We have seen money secured from player sales reinvested almost immediately in pretty much all cases.
Sure there could be an argument that they are currently at a 0 spend for this window - but its not over yet so to early to judge.


I'll be honest I think the blue print for a successful club sits somewhere in between LFC Orlando's pitch - you want the base of your team to be developed from within - less cost, more stability and loyalty - but unlike Arsenal you have to be prepared to spend the money when you need to. In the case of Man City and Chelsea it now seems it doesn't matter what the problem is the answer is throw more money at it - I don't think this is a good long term sustainable model.

The next 18 months will be interesting in that we have now rid ourselves of the deadwood, Downing is about the only player commanding a wage he probably doesn't deserve and pretty much all of our squad are in their prime or developing into it - if we were to spend no more money now and then do the same for the next couple of windows - I would start agreeing with you - but at this point I think we've seen the consolidation, now we have to give them a chance to prove whether they will take us into a growth phase, both on the pitch and commercially.
 

redbill

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TFC said:
Its hilarious that you would say "Common logic" in the same paragraph of saying that midtable would suit the owners just fine. Think it out for a minute - they need to increase the value of the club significantly in order to create any profit - so why would mid table existence be suitable to them?

They spent a lot of money buying the club, then spent an additional 80mp on it since then. Why would they happily watch the clubs value decline as it will if it remains mid table. The owners want the same thing as we do, they want success - although for different reasons, theirs might be purely financial, but they need the club to be successful if they have any chance of recouping their investment let alone making any profits.

Common logic. Don't preach what you don't practice mate.
It can be profitable in the short to medium term to knock off wages, increase commercial revenue - piggybacking on the improved TV and Merchandise deals and keep the club functional at its current level. The talk how much of their own money they had poured - (where did you get that 80 mp figure from any way) - is not based on hard facts.

Even if I want to give our nice and terribly PR savvy owners a benefit of doubt, this transfer window remains crucial. The Scum down the road will be defending their title, City have spent a shed load, Chelsea will improve and Spurs are getting together a quite handy little squad.

It pains to see that our supporters have blindly bought into this talk of 'long term' and 'vision', as if it is only a question of time and faith; holding on for that little bit longer for the golden dawn is nigh.

If only, mate. If only life maintained such perfect poesy. We all want our club to do well. Some of us, however will do well to remember -

There can be no long term without short term.
 

The Elusive 19th

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Spitfire said:
The next 18 months will be interesting in that we have now rid ourselves of the deadwood, Downing is about the only player commanding a wage he probably doesn't deserve
Just side stepping on this - Downing, Assaidi, Pachecho, Spearing, Coates. The contrbutions of these 5 guys are very minimal and i believe are going to be minimal in the next season too due to various reasons.

And i may add Skrtel to a little extent. Jury is still out on Allen and Borini.

A year is a very long time in footy. Who knows what will happen during that - Borini may go on a scoring spree and Allen may become the lynch pin of the team. But its equally possible that they may turn out to be deadwood. So ideally at any point of time any club will have a little number of deadwood. The thing is that we need to keep that count to a very minimum. Say may be 3 or less.

Only we had a squad of deadwood and 1 or 2 players here and there among the deadwoods in the last few seasons.
 

SF Red

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The Elusive 19th said:
Just side stepping on this - Downing, Assaidi, Pachecho, Spearing, Coates. The contrbutions of these 5 guys are very minimal and i believe are going to be minimal in the next season too due to various reasons.
Assaidi, Pacheco, Spearing, and to a lesser extent Coates have all been linked to moves away from the club. There were also reports that Downing won't go.

showmethemoney said:
Kind of agree with that mate.

I wonder what the genuine financial figures show since day one of when FSG came into Liverpool.

All incomings.
All outgoings.

I can't help but feel FSG have made & taken out a whole ton of cash since they've been here.
The facts don't mesh with that story. FSG hasn't taken anything out of the club (at least for the first 1.5-2 years for which there are financial figures).

On the contrary, they have put money into the club (they lied about this though. They said they would not put money into the club).

I think that most supporters don't come close to appreciating the financial disaster that FSG inherited when they purchased the club.
 

redbill

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SF Red said:
I think that most supporters don't come close to appreciating the financial disaster that FSG inherited when they purchased the club.
To be fair mate, a most of us do.

After the cancers left, however, some of us may be promised themselves to stay vigilant and not to be carried away with PR unless real change for the better appears on the pitch and on the league table. That is all that there is to it. I cannot believe that too many of us have any severe axe to grind with FSG.
 

ubermick

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redbill said:
To be fair mate, a most of us do.

After the cancers left, however, some of us may be promised themselves to stay vigilant and not to be carried away with PR unless real change for the better appears on the pitch and on the league table. That is all that there is to it. I cannot believe that too many of us have any severe axe to grind with FSG.
Honestly, I don't think most do.

I can appreciate that Hicks and Gilette burned us badly, and as a result there's always the need to sleep with one eye open. But I think a lot of it for some has to do with them sacking Kenny. I know a few people who have been historically even keeled in terms of discussing things who have flat out admitted it. And even "respected journalist" Tony Evans said himself in a tweet last year: I have no problem with the owners, but if they sack Kenny then for me the war's back on." (quoting from memory, might not be verbatim, can't be arsed to look it up.)
 

mpoletti

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SF Red said:
The facts don't mesh with that story. FSG hasn't taken anything out of the club (at least for the first 1.5-2 years for which there are financial figures).

On the contrary, they have put money into the club (they lied about this though. They said they would not put money into the club).

I think that most supporters don't come close to appreciating the financial disaster that FSG inherited when they purchased the club.
But that's not the popular view these days.

The official financials submitted to Eufa must be wrong though; especially the 50 million they loaned to the club at 0%.

Off to write a letter to FSG...
 

jimbo

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no doubt they are shrewed businessmen. but rodgers was left short last summer. would like to see some more ambition this season
 

Kinzer

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mpoletti said:
But that's not the popular view these days.

The official financials submitted to Eufa must be wrong though; especially the 50 million they loaned to the club at 0%.

Off to write a letter to FSG...
Fuck 'em. They're just Boston Cowboy capitalists slowly eviscerating the soul of Liverpool and replacing it with Coca-Cola and rounders hats. #FSGOut
 



ubermick

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jimbo said:
no doubt they are shrewed businessmen. but rodgers was left short last summer. would like to see some more ambition this season
Won't argue with that. If the window closes and we've only brought in the four lads currently, then I'll agree. But that doesn't happen until August 31, and until then I keep reminding myself that I'm not involved in the world of top-flight football in any way, so I can't comment on how easy or hard it is to sign a top class player in our situation.
 

redbill

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ubermick said:
Honestly, I don't think most do.

I can appreciate that Hicks and Gilette burned us badly, and as a result there's always the need to sleep with one eye open. But I think a lot of it for some has to do with them sacking Kenny. I know a few people who have been historically even keeled in terms of discussing things who have flat out admitted it. And even "respected journalist" Tony Evans said himself in a tweet last year: I have no problem with the owners, but if they sack Kenny then for me the war's back on." (quoting from memory, might not be verbatim, can't be arsed to look it up.)
I know what you are talking about mate, I really do.

The sad part being, most of such people I know feel self gratified from some supposed sense of loyalty to King Kenny.

In doing that, apart from every thing else, the miss the point of Kenny's greatness.

After he came back for us, from that cruise and into the toilet - Alex Ferguson, who had known Kenny for quite a while, called him 'a lion' in an interview.

Kenny Dalglish is called The King not because he lived in his ivory tower built with unsurpassed achievements as player and manager, as was his right to - but because in our greatest hour of need he accepted responsibility and became a mortal again.

This is the measure of the man. A lion. He of all people would have known the scrutiny that comes with the Liverpool job. That his spotless career could be opened up for criticisms and questions by the media or may be even the fans. He did not NEED to do this. But he accepted responsibility and united us, after the long cold winter of the cancers.

Some people I know think it sacrilege to question Kenny's failures as manager season before last. They, I am sorry to say miss how great and truly brave and selfless this man is. As if questions about his management decision can ever pass any sort of shadow on what Kenny has done for us. Mods, I am sorry if this is going off topic - just felt this had to be said.
 

redbj

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fantastic post redbill, i will add, however, that even though you summed it up perfectly, you failed to acknowledge the missing link, that is......we all know, but we all dont need to talk about it.....

he deserves more than to be splashed about in pro and con debates about a few american (or any other nationality) business men.
 

SF Red

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jimbo said:
no doubt they are shrewed businessmen. but rodgers was left short last summer. would like to see some more ambition this season
I think that was the result of many mistakes by many people, including Rodgers himself. I don't think the club left him short of funds so much, but there was no direction and no negotiating skills. I think the club has learned and is different now - i just hope they haven't gone to far in the other direction (with negotiating).
 

ubermick

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redbill said:
I know what you are talking about mate, I really do.
Bill, that is an absolutely fantastic post. Not off topic in the least given that I'm the one who brought it up (everything I say is relevant, hat hat). And when I disagreed with you about people not knowing how badly off we were when the cunts were finally ousted, I wasn't saying you were one of them - but I do genuinely think that the SERIOUS majority of fans think it was just a matter of paying off what we owed, and that was that.

I completely understand why a fair whack of our fans are on guard. Absolutely do. And I honestly have no problem with anyone criticizing them when they cock up (and they have!). But it does do my head in when normally rational people start flinging around terms like asset stripping, inferring that they are vetoing transfer dealings because they cost too much, or that every player moved out the door has been the result of them masterminding a plot to pull as much money out of the club as they can, when the club's accounts (and I leave this to people more intelligent than me to back this up) seem to tell a completely different story.


In terms of Kenny, here's how the debate about that (and Rafa, and quite a few others) always seem to go, at least in here.

You get 100 people in here talking about it. One or two occupy one extreme, one or two occupy the other extreme, and the other 96-98 are in the middle and talking about things sensibly. But the extremsits shout the loudest, arguments pop up for no reason, and before you know it you have half the people suddenly on one side, the other half on the other, and everyone's screaming at everyone else. Things get factioned, it all degrades into an us versus them mentality, and it all ends up being nonsense.


Absolutely agree with you that what Kenny has done for this club can really never be diminished. And you're bang on as well that if you asked him, he'd have absolutely no problem in saying "Yep, I got a few things wrong." We're not like that though, we're fans. We don't like seeing our heroes fail, and Kenny is in fairness the biggest one of them all. I look back on that time with a mixture of happiness and regret - not regret that he was appointed, fuck the bounce we all got when he replaced Hodgson (Hodgson!! Fuck me!!!) was legendary. But regret that it didn't work out. It didn't work out, it's a shame, but we go on. We always have done.

That's easier said than done for some, though.