The Owners

Discussion in 'The Albert - LFC Talk' started by liveforthereds, Nov 12, 2012.

  1. Kopstar

    Kopstar ★★★★★ Valued Member

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    I think they're improving. I gave them some slack at the beginning precisely because they were new to this and have been slow to criticise providing I could see discernible signs of progress. I think in most respects there are these signs.

    It's difficult, of course, because all of our competitors will also be seeking to improve and, by and large, have done so over the period of FSG's ownership as well. Albeit, the gap between where we were when FSG took over and where they are now is much smaller. I don't think they've grown commercial revenue anywhere near as well as I expected them to given that ought to be one of their fortes - if you look at their % increase of commercial revenue year-on-year since 2010 it's pretty poor. I think we're a good £50m behind where we ought to be on that front.

    In other respects I think they're taking us forward. Managerial appointment, internal appointments, Peter Moore, expanding the stadium, bringing the academy and first team together, contributing to the regeneration of the Anfield area and hopefully repairing community relations soured long before they came on the scene. I'd also like to see improvements in our in-house legal department but at some point those who are already there might actually reach the level we need. After all, if experience is learning from your mistakes they're accumulating experience at a pretty good rate.

    I'd give them a solid if unimpressive start, a mixed middle, an improving upward trend with areas for improvement still. I hope those areas are addressed as we've now got a good base from which to kick-on. It's incredibly important that we take this opportunity; we cannot afford not to.
     
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  2. Flobs

    Flobs FADA

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    All I can say to that conclusion is your seem as unimaginative as the owners.
    Very briefly I have the impression we are still playing catch up. imo the club needs an injection of imagination (some trend breaking initiatives) ......
    The communication with fans and particularly local supporters groups still appears poor.
    Some major changes when Klopp arrived were astounding and showed a lack of professionalism (just on who does what, who should be involved ......)
    The expansion building seemed to go well however the communication with fans over the new ticket prices was catastrophic.
    Then the end product, even if it is a business, the end product and statement is made on the pitch. This has been very roller coaster. I think that far too many of our transfers have been poor, that includes in and out and above all who we keep (often there isn't any sense in our transfer and contract decisions).
    I don't think Fsg have been poor overall but there is much where they can be criticised and they shouldn't be getting more than 6/10 on any scale (ie just above average).
     
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  3. redbj

    redbj hurry up, July 1st, let's get the show on the road

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    They seem to be improving, but always at a slower rate than at least one of our competitors in the market.

    Hence there'll be reason trotted out why we shouldn't expect CL 2 years in a row, not by management, but it will be based on sound theory.
     
  4. Red_Jedi

    Red_Jedi Anfield kick about

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    Well, when revenue is Top 4 I would expect minimum Top 4 finish - but if revenue is Top 5/6 then Top 4 becomes an achievement.

    But my heart says that we should be in the Top 2 for a decade and more.... but other clubs have left us behind massively - and FSG are playing catch up.
     
  5. Arminius

    Arminius FSG PR plant Moderator

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    Our revenue has doubled mainly because a rising tide floats all boats. Revenue growth has been led by broadcasting, which has relatively little to do with club management. Our commercial revenue growth since the jump up in 2012 has been mediocre (2012 97k, 2016 112k) - and that is a judgement based on looking at the performance of direct competitors. Strictly on running the club as a business, 7/10 is probably generous.
     
  6. Hope in your heart

    Hope in your heart Loyalty and patience, two undervalued concepts... Admin

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    Far too generous indeed. They are now in control since seven years, which is an eternity in football. The point is probably that their prudent, step-by-step approach (which in the end results in smaller steps being taken than those from clubs we are fighting against) doesn't really match the current crazy football world, in which clubs are bought for billions, and owners then fork out hundreds of millions in order to construct a competitive squad...

    We as supporters don't care about the accounts, we want to watch this club playing great football and winning trophies, and this club is traditionally all about winning trophies. They on the other hand run it like a prudently run business. But LFC is NOT primarily a business, and will never be.

    I'm not against a prudent, long-term approach, not at all. But at times, they seem too fearful to take decisive steps when they are needed. The stadium enhancement is a good example of this. They constructed the main stand because it was a no-brainer in economic terms, something which should have been done under Moores, some twenty years ago already. Full credit to fsg for removing the obstacles on the club's way, but really, this had to be done. Now, they are obviously stalling on the reconstruction of the ARE stand. Why? Because it makes slightly less sense on an economic level. They are afraid that the stadium couldn't be filled for every match. But is this fear really justified? We filled every single match last season. Isn't that proof enough that, when there is some proper football played, there is an enormous demand, and that it needs to be addressed? And what about the non-economic problematics: the possibility to bring younger people to Anfield, to create more atmosphere during crunch games?

    The current issue with the ARE stand is just one example. That over-prudent approach results in the club not making the steps as fast as it should. People keep saying that fsg are playing catch-up with other, richer clubs. That is true, but if they don't act more decisively, they'll soon play catch-up with more clubs still than now, clubs who have been or will soon be bought by owners who aren't as angsty as they are.

    Finally, as Arminius says, their record in purely economic terms isn't that impressive until now, although it will hopefully be better once the numbers with the new main stand come into play. Playing in the CL next season (fingers crossed!) might help too.


    For me, it's a 7 out of 10. Appointing Klopp, building the main stand, finally (FINALLY!) addressing the CEO and sporting director issue, are positive and encouraging steps. But they could have done better and faster.
     
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  7. EdWood

    EdWood TIA Youth Team

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    I despise FSG. In case anyone is in any doubt.
     
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  8. Scott Jones

    Scott Jones Well-Known Member

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    Very reasonable.:-)
     
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  9. Lostmyfunk 3421

    Lostmyfunk 3421 Standing on the verge of getting it on

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    Some top posts above, with great analysis. I also feel we haven't progressed in the way I expected and they have been overly- cautious. Be very excited if they left today, but expect them to drain us dry without taking us forward for the next 5 years.

    The corporate stand was too much for me. Should be for real fans mainly. We should always be aiming for the top because we're Liverpool but our owners don't care or understand and have spent peanuts whilst taking the TV money happily. Hicks and Gillette mark 2, just less obvious and more competent with $...

    I think Spurs and Everton will over-take us in a few years if we don't get on it this season...and invest in top top quality. Then we'd may be win and then the commercial side can improve. We have regressed so much in every angle except Jurgen. I don't give fsg any credit for that. He was made for Liverpool. Our great managers and teams of the past were what attracted him. The project of bringing us back.

    Get out FSG. Please. 3/10
     
  10. Elessar

    Elessar Well-Known Member

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    The main reason to why we are on the way up is IMO because of Klopp, not FSG. They hope time after time that the manager will be good enough. They don't seem to have a clue of how to build up the club and because of that do what the manager want them to do. That means that almost the whole project must start from scratch again when we change manager.
     
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  11. Maurice

    Maurice TIA Youth Team

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    Couldn't said it better!!!
     
  12. Billy Biskix

    Billy Biskix TIA Youth Team Valued Member

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    They still seem to be getting a lot of credit simply for not being Hicks and Gillett. If you said to me 7 years ago that we would get 2 top 4 finishes in that time and one League Cup I would have considered them a massive failure so they still have a long way to go to convince me on the footballing side that they know what they're doing. Before Klopp the only reason we'd had any success at all under FSG was that they signed Suarez in their first window.

    I have been less sceptical since they got Klopp because that was a major coup and a recognition that the manager is the most important person at any club. Get that appointment right and everything else should flow from that. Otherwise the quality of their appointments has been hit and miss, occasionally bizarre (Chang) and their approach in the transfer market baffling at times. From selling Torres and panic buying Carroll, to leaving us without a striker at the start of the 2012/13 season, to that weird transfer committee arrangement with BR which led to tens of millions of pounds being wasted on players who didn't belong in the same team. The strategy has been hard to work out.

    As others have said this Summer it is all in place. Top manager, CL football, stacks of cash. Last Summer's transfer window was pretty good and I'm expecting an even better one this time. Hasn't got off to the best of starts with the VVD debacle so you can't blame fans for being cynical nor should we keep making excuses for them and the people they appoint when they mess up. Time to kick on.
     
  13. redbj

    redbj hurry up, July 1st, let's get the show on the road

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    Oh Chang....what a fucking mess that was....they've been given a free pass on that one, just the position itself was farcial
     
  14. Iluvatar

    Iluvatar Eru

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    And who brought Klopp in? Hmmm..
     
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  15. Kanonkop

    Kanonkop Well-Known Member

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    Agreed. But to me, the failing on FSG for those events was more to do with the people they promoted/hired/left in place to run the club than their own direct actions. The majority of those were not FSG decisions but decisions made by the in situ club management.

    FSG were far too slow and far too willing to leave inadequate people in decision making positions. The excuse of not knowing football etc. expired a long time ago (max 2 years after they bought the club) and they therefore wasted a good few years in my opinion. Many bad decisions were subsequently made with accompanying opportunity costs both in terms of the sporting side and commercial growth (which has been poor). But, it appears to finally be rectified now...but it took too long.
     
  16. i_still_miss_fowler

    i_still_miss_fowler Open Your Eyes Morty! Moderator

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    4/10 for me.

    We frequently look like a poorly run organisation, with a lack of leadership or knowledge.

    • The hiring and sacking of managers, from ice creams with Martinez to flying Kenny to the US to sack him.
    • A dogma of we can be smarter than the rest, an effort to recreate a baseball model has failed, and failed badly.
    • An inability to get transfers over the line from Gerrard napping when Deli Ali came to Anfield to breaking rules of when enticing youngsters.
    • Limp or non existent leadership, from being far to distant with regard to Suarez and Evra, to allowing dirty laundry to be aired in public regarding TC and Rodgers.
    • Lack of continuity and plan. The forum joked anfield had its own red wedding, but it was no joke that Rodgers had no recruitment team in his first window or that there was no one lined up after they sacked Kenny.
    • Lack of ambition extending Anfield, or more accurately the lack of immediate financial return making it a low priority. Our owners are all about the bottom line rather than the best long term interests of the club (10 years+).
    • Average commercial success. What was meant to be their strongest card, as shown in recent years to be pretty average.
     
  17. Red_Jedi

    Red_Jedi Anfield kick about

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    I agree with most of your points.

    But what I would say also is that this is their 1st time in the Premier League and Football. They are learning and evolving too. They are getting better.

    If you look at our clubs ownership over the last 30 years - Moores with Parry, Hicks + Gillet and now FSG - they are the ones that have moved us forward.

    The majority of the damage was done in the 90's - where we stood still.

    And FSG are running a sustainable model - which is the opposite to City or Chelsea.

    And when was the last time that we were even connected with players like Mbappe or VVD?

    This summer will be telling...., but this phase now is the most hopeful I have been for over 20 years.

    Maybe I am deluded?
     
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  18. redbj

    redbj hurry up, July 1st, let's get the show on the road

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    There seems to be a massive oversight when regarding the mbappe and VVD transfers....

    First of all....rumours are worth fuck all, getting close is worth fuck all....

    Secondly....Torres, Suarez, Mascherano, heck, Collymore even, we've a long history in competing for the best.....it's really only been since the Cowboys fucked it that we've pretended we can't compete...even then, we've managed to buy one heck of a gem, and....possibly, overpay for a lot of other dross.

    Thirdly, we were once rumoured to be within touching distance of Zidane, Villa and Luis Figo ( I think)....rumours mean fuck all.

    Mbappe ( the rumour) and VVD don't signal a watershed moment for me
     
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  19. Quagmire81

    Quagmire81 TIA Regular

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    You really give FSG credit for that? As far as I'm concern Klopp picked Liverpool FC. If FSG left I'm sure Jurgen wouldn't be bothered one bit by it.
     
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  20. Maurice

    Maurice TIA Youth Team

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    :well done::well done::well done:
     
  21. Hope in your heart

    Hope in your heart Loyalty and patience, two undervalued concepts... Admin

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    I'd agree with you completely if there hadn't been Klopp's appointment since then, and the CEO position addressed.
    These are signs for me that they are making (slow) progress. Add the main stand construction to it, which the two previous sets of owners weren't capable of delivering. That's why they get a kind 7/10 from me.
     
  22. Iluvatar

    Iluvatar Eru

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    Yes, they hired him, they sacked Rodgers to do so... Klopp was who they wanted before they appointed Kenny.

    6/10, but awaiting results on this window.
     
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  23. ptt

    ptt Mane I'm excited for this season

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    Then we as fans are morons. You might not, but don't group/stereotype me in with that thinking. Like saying that voters don't care about the economy. It's money that matters, it pays for literally everything at the club. Without good figures, we don't buy good players. Simple.
     
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  24. Hope in your heart

    Hope in your heart Loyalty and patience, two undervalued concepts... Admin

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    It's the number of trophies which interests me as a fan. Not how much it costs to get there. That's the owners' job.

    The above doesn't mean that I won't be interested to have a look at the club's accounts, or better still, be informed by people who know how to interpret them. It will help me adjusting my expectations. But at the end of the day, a football club owner's record will be measured by the number of trophies won, especially when this club is LFC.

    I think that would apply to any fan, wouldn't you agree so? Or is money more important for you, as a Liverpool fan, than trophies? Surely not?
     
  25. Elessar

    Elessar Well-Known Member

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    FSG. He is a top class manager but what I mean is that they also had to start from scratch again when they signed him up. When they sacked Kenny they should have signed up a manager that continue the work Kenny had done instead of someone that use a totally different playing style and tactic. They should also had stuck to their plan from day one. They should have kept a DoF and signed up a manager that accepted that.
     
  26. MarcusBerglund

    MarcusBerglund Well-Known Member

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    Haha, and I thought that I am the bad guy in this thread :-)

    4/10 for me too.

    On the plus side:

    - They hired Klopp, one of the best managers in football today.

    - They expanded the stadium /delivering the new Main Stand/, and redeveloped Anfield.

    - We are much more solid financially now, but still the comparison is with the worst pair of owners we have ever had.

    - The signings of Suarez, Coutinho, Mane, Hendo etc.


    On the negative side:

    - Only one trophy for 7 years /and it is the mighty League Cup/ and only two times we managed to finish in top 4 /our first try in the group stages was a clear failure/.

    - Sacking King Kenny after he won a trophy, lost an FA Cup final and replacing him with a manager who had never won a trophy /well, this season he won trophies with Celtic, but probably even me with Eddie and redfanman as assistants could have won at least one Cup in Scotland :-)/

    - Well, they built the Main Stand, but mainly because of the corporate seats. Now when they have to commit with building the Annie Road and expandind the stadium to almost 60 000, there is only deafening silence coming from Boston.

    - The ticket price hike. In February 2016 FSG made once again a huge mistake and guess what? They had to issue an apolgy to the fans /well, we all know that they do that from time to time/.
    “I don’t know if there is a next step because ticket prices are an issue in England,” Henry said in September. “That may foreclose further expansion. We’ll have to see.”

    - Clint Dempsey and Virgil van Dijk, what do they have in common? Every time you type their name and LFC in google, the first thing that jums out is - apolgy, failure, tapping up...

    - Liverpool have been banned from signing academy players for the next two years and fined £100,000 by the Premier League after being found guilty of breaching regulations in their attempts to sign a youngster from Stoke City.

    - The lack of effective transfer strategy - we started with DoF, later the club chose the TC model and i can't see a positive change.
    The famous moneyball strategy, but it is actually lowball strategy. For example - Salah, if the club wasn't lowballing for months, Salah would be LFC player for the price of 13-14 mln. pounds, now he will cost LFC /if the club manages to sign him, of course, because LFC is lowballing again/ three times more.
    Spending 35 mln. pounds on Carroll, 40 mln. pounds on Downing and Markovic. The failed signings of Balotelli, Ilori, Aspas, Alberto etc.

    - The failure to compete for the best players with the best clubs. And we had to sell our best players - Torres, Suarez, Sterling.
     
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  27. ptt

    ptt Mane I'm excited for this season

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    I want to win but winning takes green, lots of it. It's not chicken and egg, you need a bloody huge egg. Unless you're Leicester and every planet aligns to your star sign.
     
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  28. EdWood

    EdWood TIA Youth Team

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    Agreed, and these owners ain't going to lay one.
     
  29. Red_Jedi

    Red_Jedi Anfield kick about

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    For me, It's not the trophies per se.

    Its the excitement of looking forward to the next match. Its the entertainment of watching a match, and style of play. Then its of course winning games. The journey to a final. And of course winning finals.

    Under FSG ownership we are a whisker away of having won 4 cups and a league in their 7 years.

    Yes they've sacked 4 managers in their time - but they've got the right man to take them forward now.

    Yes, they've cocked up with transfers - buts it more the structure and people they put in place that did that, rather then they themselves....

    They've also learnt. and there is progress.

    We've has some very memorable times under FSG - Kenny and 2 cup finals, Brendan and nearly the league - and Jurgen....

    I want more of that, but with a little bit of luck some trophies too.

    I really don't feel that we are that far away from that - in fact closest we've been in 25 odd years.

    And its our current owners that have given me that.
     
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  30. Hope in your heart

    Hope in your heart Loyalty and patience, two undervalued concepts... Admin

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    Partly agree on the first part (the way leading to the trophies counts as well), but on the latter: closest to trophies we've been in 25 odd years? What about the cup quadruple in 2001? The CL in 2005? The FA cup in 2006? It's the league trophy which is evading us since such a frustratingly long time, but I think it's fair to say that we have been closer to winning it on several times than we are right now. And that was before fsg came in.
     
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