• Hey Guest!
    Enjoy the This Is Anfield Forums but want to remove the adverts? Now you can do so by clicking here.
    Thanks for your support!

The Owners

Mascot88

Yours for £1m. Need to make room for Dean Saunders
Admin
Joined
May 24, 2007
Messages
21,404
What is clear from both the profits made in the past two years and the net spend figures, that the club is not investing every penny it has available in making the squad as strong as possible.
Two points

1) The accounts are always misleading. Fans still have a habit of of thinking of transfer related budgets as being like in Footy Manager - a pot of money, and as soon as you pay £30m for a player, £30 disappears off your pot.

This isn’t my strong point, but I understand that in reality player contracts and fees are amortised across the duration of the contact, so for example if the total cost of Van Dijk’s contract is £100m, then this will appear on the books as a £20m outgoing for five years.

The short version of saying this is that the majority of our transfer spend, even for last season, will not appear on the books yet.

2) Whether LFC are investing every penny in the player squad is absolutely irrelevant if Klopp has no need of that additional spending. Klopp is well know for preferring to work with a small squad. He won’t spend money if there is there is another way.

You keep avoiding this because it doesn’t fit the narrative, but it would be good to address it at some point. If you think FSG don’t invest enough in the squad, what would you have them do? Instruct Edwards to buy players over Klopp’s head? Tell Klopp he has to spend more, or replace him with someone who will? Maybe just spend more on the players we do go for?

I think, looking at the way things seemed to have gone in the past, that if Klopp wants a player, the money is there for him and Edwards to get it done. Until then, FSG seem to be doing exactly what you’d want the owners to do with some spare cash. Get the key players on new improved contracts and invest in the training facilities.
 
Last edited:


Kopstar

★★★★★★
Joined
Jun 15, 2007
Messages
13,923
I'd actually like to know what the cash flow is like rather than profit / losses. The profit for any one period doesn't mean much to me.

We did a lot of buying and selling and as the profits are booked right away and the purchase values are amortized; it just reflects a difference in timing.

For Example, assuming his amortized value is zero right now (I know it isn't)... we could sell Firmino for 100m, buy him back for 100m on a 5 year contract and that would make an 80m profit at the end of the year (is that right???).
Yes, that's right.

You're also not far off on the book value of Firmino either. Bought for £29m in the summer of 2015 on a five year contract his book value as of last summer would have been £11.6m (£29m/5 = £5.8m/year). Extending to 2023 (I think) means that the £11.6m is then itself amortised so that his book value as of this summer would be £9.28m (£11.6m spread over 5 years).

So not quite zero but heading that way. It's why losing Can for free, for example, isn't a loss 'on the books'.
 

lfc.eddie

"¿Plata... O Plomo?"
Joined
Sep 18, 2006
Messages
53,050
Maybe we should not dissect this profit too deep because there are no mentioned as to how they derive this profit from. EBITDA don’t care about amortisation and depreciation, and the value set on buying a player is booked at actual value minus the add-ons. If it’s all down to operating profit based on profit and loss, there is no need to drag depreciation and amortisation of assets into the discussion. Cash flow account will be another animal all together.

If reported we made a €100m profit and on face value it means we made that money from somewhere. Safe to say it comes not only from commercial deals and gate receipts but also that £100m plus fee we will be receiving through trenches from Barcelona.
 

sabbatwolf

TIA Youth Team
Joined
Apr 2, 2008
Messages
94
Sorry, I cannot agree with this. No English club has ever won 4 trophies in a season, doubles are rare and trebles even rarer so, it's a bit far fetched to even think a club can. Neither is this the 1980's, football has changed immeasurably.

To win the Champions League, you need to play almost as many games as needed to win both the FA and EFL Cups. It's an unpalatable fact but I dont see the point going all out to win either the FA Cup and especially the EFL Cup when these are competitons for virtual reserve teams. It is sad, especially so for the FA Cup but all the major European leagues have been that way for years. And these are the clubs who you have to play in the CL where their 'elite' players arent flogged to death over the season.

And as I keep saying, 30 years is a bigger embarassment than 6 years. Let's not forget that last League Cup win took a virtually full strength Liverpool team to beat 2nd tier Cardiff on pens. Yes, a trophy is a trophy but Im more than a bit jaudiced at winning a cup here and there while others are being crowned Champions of England.

I just cant get my ahead around these fans who think every last penny has to be spent on the squad. The club's infrastructure has improved enormously with the new Main Stand. Kirkby is being upgraded and the Anny Road is next. Neither am I particularly bothered that the club isnt a chequebook operation like chelsea and manchester city are. I much prefer and always have done, the approach that we spend wisely when needed and give opportunities to young players to come through the ranks. We've been doing that since the 60's.

Jurgen Klopp doesnt operate with massive squads. Im pretty sure if Jurgen decided he wanted to bring in additional fullback cover, he would have done.
Well said!

I think there are two schools of thought when it comes to player purchases (and therefore squad depth). On the one hand, there are those that baulk at the idea of 'buying the title' and feel that the sugar daddy clubs could even be damaging to football overall. On the other hand are those that want our owners to spend big on world class superstars for every position with superstar spares for every position too. Personally, I'm in the first group. I desperately want us to win the league at last and accept that means we need to focus our resources. What I don't want is for us to win the league at the expense of our soul. I don't want us to be another Man City or Chelsea.
 

Mascot88

Yours for £1m. Need to make room for Dean Saunders
Admin
Joined
May 24, 2007
Messages
21,404
Well said!

I think there are two schools of thought when it comes to player purchases (and therefore squad depth). On the one hand, there are those that baulk at the idea of 'buying the title' and feel that the sugar daddy clubs could even be damaging to football overall. On the other hand are those that want our owners to spend big on world class superstars for every position with superstar spares for every position too. Personally, I'm in the first group. I desperately want us to win the league at last and accept that means we need to focus our resources. What I don't want is for us to win the league at the expense of our soul. I don't want us to be another Man City or Chelsea.
I think we are treading a nice middle ground at the minute. We’re actively trying to promote from within, we’re looking at smart purchases (like Robbo) but thanks to this savvy when we need to go big - like breaking the transfer records for a defender and a goalkeeper - we will.

Despite what the Bantz would say, we are certainly not ‘buying the title’ in the way City did.
 



RedForever2014

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2014
Messages
3,976
The issue I had with your use of the UEFA coefficient was that it isn't a true reflection of where the club is at any moment in time. The coefficient lags due to how it is calculated and at best can only be used as a delayed indicator as to a club's direction of travel 2-3 years previous.

H&G (damn it's great not having to type those two letters for so long) benefited (in terms of UEFA coefficient) during their tenure from the club's results in Europe from 2005-2009, so from the club's position largely as it was before they took over.

Their mismanagement began impacting the club nearly immediately but it wasn't until at least midway through their ownership that it began to impact results on the pitch, although our results in Europe deteriorated every year in which they owned the club.

I'm still waiting to be impressed by our commercial performance and hope to see a significant increase in those revenues in the next accounts because for me we have underperformed in this area, relative to our standing, for years.

Just to clarify further, the article talks about profit of €100m, not £100m.
Yes I do appreciate the time lag in coefficient.

Sorry, I cannot agree with this. No English club has ever won 4 trophies in a season, doubles are rare and trebles even rarer so, it's a bit far fetched to even think a club can. Neither is this the 1980's, football has changed immeasurably.

To win the Champions League, you need to play almost as many games as needed to win both the FA and EFL Cups. It's an unpalatable fact but I dont see the point going all out to win either the FA Cup and especially the EFL Cup when these are competitons for virtual reserve teams. It is sad, especially so for the FA Cup but all the major European leagues have been that way for years. And these are the clubs who you have to play in the CL where their 'elite' players arent flogged to death over the season.

And as I keep saying, 30 years is a bigger embarassment than 6 years. Let's not forget that last League Cup win took a virtually full strength Liverpool team to beat 2nd tier Cardiff on pens. Yes, a trophy is a trophy but Im more than a bit jaudiced at winning a cup here and there while others are being crowned Champions of England.

I just cant get my ahead around these fans who think every last penny has to be spent on the squad. The club's infrastructure has improved enormously with the new Main Stand. Kirkby is being upgraded and the Anny Road is next. Neither am I particularly bothered that the club isnt a chequebook operation like chelsea and manchester city are. I much prefer and always have done, the approach that we spend wisely when needed and give opportunities to young players to come through the ranks. We've been doing that since the 60's.

Jurgen Klopp doesnt operate with massive squads. Im pretty sure if Jurgen decided he wanted to bring in additional fullback cover, he would have done.
I didn't say I expected us to win all four, I said I expect us to compete for them.

Competing means getting to the latter stages, not necessarily winning it. We are the only top six club that has gone out of the domestic cups in the early rounds every year since we started competing for top four again.

Every other top club manages to compete for top four, play in Europe and do better in domestic cups than we do.

We got to the League Cup final in Klopp's first season, when we finished well outside the top 4 (and top 6), but since then have gone out of the League Cup and FA Cup early each season.

We all know that to win a trophy - especially cups - you need things to go your way, but the longer you stay in each tournament the better chance you have (in fact the only chance you have).

I believe staying in domestic cups longer is helpful. It gives you a greater chance of picking up trophies, especially as the PL and CL are extremely difficult to win. It gives more players playing time, it gives the supporters a day out at Wembley and it gives the players experience of semis and finals that help them handle title run ins and CL latter stages.

That we don't get anywhere in domestic cups to me indicates that more work is necessary on the squad, both with the intent of competing on four fronts and especially as having a squad deep enough to compete on 4 fronts also means you stand a better chance in the main two trophies (PL and CL).

I can accept the situation this season, but if we have to go out of domestic cups early every year in order to compete for the title and CL, that to me is unacceptable.

Two points

1) The accounts are always misleading. Fans still have a habit of of thinking of transfer related budgets as being like in Footy Manager - a pot of money, and as soon as you pay £30m for a player, £30 disappears off your pot.

This isn’t my strong point, but I understand that in reality player contracts and fees are amortised across the duration of the contact, so for example if the total cost of Van Dijk’s contract is £100m, then this will appear on the books as a £20m outgoing for five years.

The short version of saying this is that the majority of our transfer spend, even for last season, will not appear on the books yet.

2) Whether LFC are investing every penny in the player squad is absolutely irrelevant if Klopp has no need of that additional spending. Klopp is well know for preferring to work with a small squad. He won’t spend money if there is there is another way.

You keep avoiding this because it doesn’t fit the narrative, but it would be good to address it at some point. If you think FSG don’t invest enough in the squad, what would you have them do? Instruct Edwards to buy players over Klopp’s head? Tell Klopp he has to spend more, or replace him with someone who will? Maybe just spend more on the players we do go for?

I think, looking at the way things seemed to have gone in the past, that if Klopp wants a player, the money is there for him and Edwards to get it done. Until then, FSG seem to be doing exactly what you’d want the owners to do with some spare cash. Get the key players on new improved contracts and invest in the training facilities.
Clubs that spend the most money win the most trophies over the medium term.

We can compete despite this under Klopp, but we would be more equipped to win things if the squad was stronger.

You can't coach the likes of Moreno to be any better. You can't change the fact that three centre backs are injury prone until you swap them out. There is no young player ready to play during a title challenge and CL campaign.

You don't have to pay big bucks for every signing, but you need to sign players constantly and consistently.

If Klopp doesn't want this he's limiting his own chances of success. The club should be capable of spending more and Klopp should want to.
 

Arminius

FSG PR plant
Moderator
Joined
Aug 13, 2008
Messages
23,984
Clubs that spend the most money win the most trophies over the medium term.

We can compete despite this under Klopp, but we would be more equipped to win things if the squad was stronger.

You can't coach the likes of Moreno to be any better. You can't change the fact that three centre backs are injury prone until you swap them out. There is no young player ready to play during a title challenge and CL campaign.

You don't have to pay big bucks for every signing, but you need to sign players constantly and consistently.

If Klopp doesn't want this he's limiting his own chances of success. The club should be capable of spending more and Klopp should want to.
To be fair, Klopp's approach has adjusted from his time in Dortmund along some dimensions, just not in others. He still seems to like a mid-size squad - I would not say small, because he clearly wants some consistent level of rotation, but also wishes to avoid the heavy bench problem. He definitely does not like January signings, the complete lack of media churn around LFC once again this year would seem to establish that.

On the other hand, VvD is not a Dortmund-Klopp transfer. He seems delighted with good scouting and smart transfers like Robertson, but now seems willing to go to the absolute top of the market to address well-defined needs. Allisson to replace Karius is in some ways an even clearer example of a shift in his way of thinking.

I would like, all things being equal, to see a player come in to shore up the squad in this window, if only for insurance. But Klopp clearly doesn't want to change the dynamic in the team right now, which is hard to argue against. As long as he continues this new pattern of prioritizing the highest need every summer, and the club goes out and fills it with just about the best available, I will be satisfied.
 



Lowton_Red

No football club is successful without hard work.
Ad-free Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2015
Messages
2,119
1) The accounts are always misleading.
In the strictest sense, no they are not.

A company's accounts should never be misleading. To publish misleading accounts is false accounting, and false accounting is a criminal offence.

It is a requirement of The Financial Reporting Council that:
"The financial statements shall give a true and fair view of the assets, liabilities, financial position, financial performance and, when required to be presented, cash flows of an entity."

Having said that, it is easy to misinterpret or misconstrue what a company's accounts are conveying, especially so if you are unaware of the appropriate accountancy rules i.e. the conventions and legal obligations that govern how a company is required / permitted to present its results.
 

lfc.eddie

"¿Plata... O Plomo?"
Joined
Sep 18, 2006
Messages
53,050
It's more likely his stance hasn't changed though.
In some ways it has deviated a little bit, like @Arminius said. You would not see him splashing record some for Van Dijk and Alisson back then, and that's the way he likes to operate. He is getting used to life in the big leagues with big money just recently. While he has not changed with the way he go about only want specific type of player, he isn't shy of spending anymore these days.

@Lowton_Red, yes misleading is definitely a wrong word to use to describe the accounts published by the club.
 

Limiescouse

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 26, 2014
Messages
13,641
I believe staying in domestic cups longer is helpful. It gives you a greater chance of picking up trophies, especially as the PL and CL are extremely difficult to win. It gives more players playing time, it gives the supporters a day out at Wembley and it gives the players experience of semis and finals that help them handle title run ins and CL latter stages.
City's last two EFL semis have been against Bristol City and Burton Albion. You are free to make a value judgement on how important you think winning these trophies are, but I dont think you can support the idea that City are now steeled for a run in or a crunch CL tie against Barca because of the high pressure stakes of semi finals against lower tiered sides.
 



sms1986

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2018
Messages
2,004
City's last two EFL semis have been against Bristol City and Burton Albion. You are free to make a value judgement on how important you think winning these trophies are, but I dont think you can support the idea that City are now steeled for a run in or a crunch CL tie against Barca because of the high pressure stakes of semi finals against lower tiered sides.
An extra game is an extra game which also brings extra possibilities of players getting injured.
 

Mascot88

Yours for £1m. Need to make room for Dean Saunders
Admin
Joined
May 24, 2007
Messages
21,404
In the strictest sense, no they are not.

A company's accounts should never be misleading. To publish misleading accounts is false accounting, and false accounting is a criminal offence.

It is a requirement of The Financial Reporting Council that:
"The financial statements shall give a true and fair view of the assets, liabilities, financial position, financial performance and, when required to be presented, cash flows of an entity."

Having said that, it is easy to misinterpret or misconstrue what a company's accounts are conveying, especially so if you are unaware of the appropriate accountancy rules i.e. the conventions and legal obligations that govern how a company is required / permitted to present its results.
Sure. Everyone knows what I mean though.

You can't prove he doesn't any more I can prove he does.

Mr Positive would never say otherwise.
We can look at virtually everything he has said and done in the past and at LFC, and conclude with some certainty that Klopp

1) prefers to work with a smaller group of players, and doesn’t like too many on the fringes not getting their game.

2) does not naturally want to go to the market and spend money because it’s there.

3) will always look to give youth a chance

4) is the manager FSG wanted to get in place from the very beginning, and as such it’s very unlikely they’d want to piss him off by not letting him spend the money he wants.

Furthermore, I don’t think you can find even a twitchy eyebrow to show that Klopp is not 100% happy with the way he has been backed in the market. He has gone out of his way to try to encourage fans and the media to put aside the idea that the solution to every problem is to throw money at it.

What you are asking, with your wish to see Klopp dropping more and more money into the squad, is for him to change his nature. It makes as much sense bringing in Mourinho and expecting him to develop the kids.
 

CymruRed

TIA Youth Team
Ad-free Member
Joined
Aug 5, 2010
Messages
979
Yes I do appreciate the time lag in coefficient.



I didn't say I expected us to win all four, I said I expect us to compete for them.

Competing means getting to the latter stages, not necessarily winning it. We are the only top six club that has gone out of the domestic cups in the early rounds every year since we started competing for top four again.

Every other top club manages to compete for top four, play in Europe and do better in domestic cups than we do.

We got to the League Cup final in Klopp's first season, when we finished well outside the top 4 (and top 6), but since then have gone out of the League Cup and FA Cup early each season.

We all know that to win a trophy - especially cups - you need things to go your way, but the longer you stay in each tournament the better chance you have (in fact the only chance you have).

I believe staying in domestic cups longer is helpful. It gives you a greater chance of picking up trophies, especially as the PL and CL are extremely difficult to win. It gives more players playing time, it gives the supporters a day out at Wembley and it gives the players experience of semis and finals that help them handle title run ins and CL latter stages.

That we don't get anywhere in domestic cups to me indicates that more work is necessary on the squad, both with the intent of competing on four fronts and especially as having a squad deep enough to compete on 4 fronts also means you stand a better chance in the main two trophies (PL and CL).

I can accept the situation this season, but if we have to go out of domestic cups early every year in order to compete for the title and CL, that to me is unacceptable.



Clubs that spend the most money win the most trophies over the medium term.

We can compete despite this under Klopp, but we would be more equipped to win things if the squad was stronger.

You can't coach the likes of Moreno to be any better. You can't change the fact that three centre backs are injury prone until you swap them out. There is no young player ready to play during a title challenge and CL campaign.

You don't have to pay big bucks for every signing, but you need to sign players constantly and consistently.

If Klopp doesn't want this he's limiting his own chances of success. The club should be capable of spending more and Klopp should want to.

What you need to factor into all this,is that the major teams we are competing against for all four competitions,have squads with quality in depth to play deep into all four comps.

Admittedly they've all had new managers at some point in the last 3-4 years since Klopps been here,the likes of Man City,Chelsea,Man United and Spurs have all added decent players to their squads,that were already good enough to compete for the title,whereas Klopps been working miricles to offload deadwood and build his squad from scratch,taking us 2 steps back in that timeframe (yet taking us 3 steps closer at the same time).

When the deadwood is gone and Klopp has his team in place,strong/deep enough to compete with the likes of Man City in the so called lesser cups,we'll stay in them longer and try winning them.ATM we are picking our fights in accordance to whats better for the club and size of our squad,and untill Klopps had enough time to get the players he needs,then i'm all for ducking out of the FA Cup/League Cup to help us win the title or CL.
 

Limiescouse

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 26, 2014
Messages
13,641
Well said!

I think there are two schools of thought when it comes to player purchases (and therefore squad depth). On the one hand, there are those that baulk at the idea of 'buying the title' and feel that the sugar daddy clubs could even be damaging to football overall. On the other hand are those that want our owners to spend big on world class superstars for every position with superstar spares for every position too. Personally, I'm in the first group. I desperately want us to win the league at last and accept that means we need to focus our resources. What I don't want is for us to win the league at the expense of our soul. I don't want us to be another Man City or Chelsea.
One thing that often gets lost is during the 70s and 80s when were on top, we frequently flexed our financial muscles and outspent our rivals. We don't have many, if any, entries in the progression of the League transfer record during that period, but our approach to turning over the team was to identify "liverpool players", then bide our time and then when the time came put a wedge of cash on the table to bring them in. The fees may not look comparable, but the near half million quid we paid for Souness and Dalgish in 77 were both near record fees, and the approach was very similar to the way we went about bringing in Virgil and Alison in the last year. It is not buying the league, but it is using our substantial muscle strategically. Having the money to make the offers sizeable enough that the club cannot say no is important. But its the clever and well organized implementation of the approach that is key.
 

RedForever2014

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2014
Messages
3,976
Sure. Everyone knows what I mean though.



We can look at virtually everything he has said and done in the past and at LFC, and conclude with some certainty that Klopp

1) prefers to work with a smaller group of players, and doesn’t like too many on the fringes not getting their game.

2) does not naturally want to go to the market and spend money because it’s there.

3) will always look to give youth a chance

4) is the manager FSG wanted to get in place from the very beginning, and as such it’s very unlikely they’d want to piss him off by not letting him spend the money he wants.

Furthermore, I don’t think you can find even a twitchy eyebrow to show that Klopp is not 100% happy with the way he has been backed in the market. He has gone out of his way to try to encourage fans and the media to put aside the idea that the solution to every problem is to throw money at it.

What you are asking, with your wish to see Klopp dropping more and more money into the squad, is for him to change his nature. It makes as much sense bringing in Mourinho and expecting him to develop the kids.
When he arrived Klopp called the loan system madness, and is now its biggest fan.

He said he'd never pay top dollar for players even if he had the money, then did so.

He said he'd never sign a player in January, then signed VVD.

Forgive me for not accepting that what he says is what he means.
 



sms1986

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2018
Messages
2,004
When he arrived Klopp called the loan system madness, and is now its biggest fan.

He said he'd never pay top dollar for players even if he had the money, then did so.

He said he'd never sign a player in January, then signed VVD.

Forgive me for not accepting that what he says is what he means.
The last two have worked out brilliantly for us so I'm glad he changed his mind there!
 

dockers_strike

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 26, 2017
Messages
740
The thing to bear in mind regarding this €100m net profit is, it is not Liverpool that is bigging up this news. It is UEFA and all the football pages. 'Look, Liverpool the first club to have €100m net profit' they scream then the people jump on it. So what, it is an exceptional circumstance off the back of selling a player for over £100m and reaching the CL final.

But as I alluded to before, you cannot spend every last penny on squad reinforcements. Again, as I mentioned before, ground and infrastructure improvements are needed. Just where do some think the money for continual redevelopment of the ground and training facilities come from? It either comes from the club's overall budget or a sugar daddy. Personally, Im happy the owners are putting the club on a sound financial footing and not building up huge debt and all that entails.

Supposing we did adopt a policy of spending every last penny on the players, there's at least two problems I can see: First, selling clubs are going to up their prices because they know you're just going to spend all that lovely money you have sloshing around your bank account. Second, are you really going to get elite players to come and sit on the bench, possibly even not make the squad on match days when they have Allison, Trent, van Dijk, Robbo, Fabinho,Mane, Salah
Yes I do appreciate the time lag in coefficient.



I didn't say I expected us to win all four, I said I expect us to compete for them.

Competing means getting to the latter stages, not necessarily winning it. We are the only top six club that has gone out of the domestic cups in the early rounds every year since we started competing for top four again.

Every other top club manages to compete for top four, play in Europe and do better in domestic cups than we do.

We got to the League Cup final in Klopp's first season, when we finished well outside the top 4 (and top 6), but since then have gone out of the League Cup and FA Cup early each season.

We all know that to win a trophy - especially cups - you need things to go your way, but the longer you stay in each tournament the better chance you have (in fact the only chance you have).

I believe staying in domestic cups longer is helpful. It gives you a greater chance of picking up trophies, especially as the PL and CL are extremely difficult to win. It gives more players playing time, it gives the supporters a day out at Wembley and it gives the players experience of semis and finals that help them handle title run ins and CL latter stages.

That we don't get anywhere in domestic cups to me indicates that more work is necessary on the squad, both with the intent of competing on four fronts and especially as having a squad deep enough to compete on 4 fronts also means you stand a better chance in the main two trophies (PL and CL).

I can accept the situation this season, but if we have to go out of domestic cups early every year in order to compete for the title and CL, that to me is unacceptable.



Clubs that spend the most money win the most trophies over the medium term.

We can compete despite this under Klopp, but we would be more equipped to win things if the squad was stronger.

You can't coach the likes of Moreno to be any better. You can't change the fact that three centre backs are injury prone until you swap them out. There is no young player ready to play during a title challenge and CL campaign.

You don't have to pay big bucks for every signing, but you need to sign players constantly and consistently.

If Klopp doesn't want this he's limiting his own chances of success. The club should be capable of spending more and Klopp should want to.
Sorry but what's the point in 'competing' in a competition if you're not intending to win it? That's just a massive cop out and a waste of time and players energy. Everyone has their own opinion but I dont see the point 'competing' in the FA Cup to get knocked out in the later stages. Not only that, it massively weakens and reduces any chance you have of winning the Premier League or Champions League.

You say "We are the only top six club that has gone out of the domestic cups in the early rounds every year since we started competing for top four again." So what, the priority has to be the PL and securing CL football. Again, I dont see any greater kudos going out of the FA Cup or EFL Cup in the semis compared to the 3rd round.

You also say "I believe staying in domestic cups longer is helpful. It gives you a greater chance of picking up trophies, especially as the PL and CL are extremely difficult to win." Erm, no it doesnt. We last won the league in 1990. We last won a cup in 2012. In the 22 years between 1990 and 2012, we won 11 cups if you include the European Super Cup and CL. In not one of those years that we won a cup or the follow years between winning cups did we win the title.

Your proposition that winning cups makes us as a team more likely to win the title is utterly blasted apart since we won 11 cups to zero titles. As in 2014, this year we look even better placed to win the title and we're out of both domestic cups. If we win the title this year, it will be because we were not 'competing' in the latter stages of the domestic cups not because we could have been.
 

Lowton_Red

No football club is successful without hard work.
Ad-free Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2015
Messages
2,119
Every other top club manages to compete for top four, play in Europe and do better in domestic cups than we do.
OK, but can you tell me, in the last seven seasons, how many English clubs have reached the Champions League final and also finished in the top four of the PL, at the same time?
 



liver1

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2015
Messages
1,944
Yes I do appreciate the time lag in coefficient.



I didn't say I expected us to win all four, I said I expect us to compete for them.

Competing means getting to the latter stages, not necessarily winning it. We are the only top six club that has gone out of the domestic cups in the early rounds every year since we started competing for top four again.

Every other top club manages to compete for top four, play in Europe and do better in domestic cups than we do.

We got to the League Cup final in Klopp's first season, when we finished well outside the top 4 (and top 6), but since then have gone out of the League Cup and FA Cup early each season.

We all know that to win a trophy - especially cups - you need things to go your way, but the longer you stay in each tournament the better chance you have (in fact the only chance you have).

I believe staying in domestic cups longer is helpful. It gives you a greater chance of picking up trophies, especially as the PL and CL are extremely difficult to win. It gives more players playing time, it gives the supporters a day out at Wembley and it gives the players experience of semis and finals that help them handle title run ins and CL latter stages.

That we don't get anywhere in domestic cups to me indicates that more work is necessary on the squad, both with the intent of competing on four fronts and especially as having a squad deep enough to compete on 4 fronts also means you stand a better chance in the main two trophies (PL and CL).

I can accept the situation this season, but if we have to go out of domestic cups early every year in order to compete for the title and CL, that to me is unacceptable.
We havent won the league for 28 years.

And for most of those 28 years we havent been competing for the league.

So if we need to bin the FA cup and league cup to challenge for the league every year, thats fine by me. Better than being in the doldrums for nearly 3 decades on the title that really matters.
 

mattyhurst

TIA Regular
Joined
Oct 3, 2010
Messages
13,627
It’s not like we haven’t been to any finals in the last 3 years, the fact is we lost them and fair enough but on another day two could have been won, one was the lottery of pens and we were in that CL for at least a half. If Alison had been in goal we might well have been in it for a lot longer.

If Klopp had been achieving just 4th I’d have criticisms though still not major just yet but he has given our fans 3 days out in 3 seasons. Who knows he might make it 4 in 4, I’d bloody love it if he did, but if he doesn’t fair enough. You could say he sacrificed the cups for the league we all want, but we dominated that Chelsea team in the League Cup and we drew Wolves away probably the hardest club outside of the top 6 away.

I’m sure that team would have beaten a Reading at home as Man Utd did or Tranmere away as Spurs did but we couldn’t risk our defence, you look at City tonight they seemingly played some top players but they all featured in the attacking third, their defence were they are lighter they did not so much.
 

Lowton_Red

No football club is successful without hard work.
Ad-free Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2015
Messages
2,119
The latest Deloitte Football Money League report has just been released, and, according to the report, our "revenue increased by £90.6m (25%), the highest uplift of any top ten Money League club, emphasising the financial reward from a strong showing in UEFA’s flagship competition and the impact of on-pitch performance on a club’s Money League position. Almost half of total revenue (49%) was received from broadcasters with the club earning the equal most broadcast revenue of the Money League top 20 alongside Real Madrid".

According to Deloitte's figures, turnover, in the season 2017/18, increased to £455.1 million.
By far the greatest proportion of this increase came in broadcasting revenue, up £65.8 million on the previous season to £222.6 million.
Matchday revenue was up £12.4 million to £81.2 million and commercial revenue showed a similar increase to £151.3 million.

While the growth in broadcasting revenue is impressive, Deloitte included the following cautionary comment:
"However, with the Premier League’s tender for the next cycle of domestic rights from 2019/20 complete and sale of overseas rights nearing conclusion, it is clear that Premier League clubs will be unable to rely on explosive growth in broadcast distributions as a source of future growth, as has been the case in recent years.

As a result, we expect an even greater emphasis among these clubs on generating their own growth in the coming season, and in particular the optimisation of commercial revenue, which has been a key area for differentiating growth across most of Europe’s leading clubs in recent years."

This is of particular relevance to us as the annual growth in our commercial revenue at £12.4 million (8.93%), is still not particularly impressive when compared to Chealsea's growth of £30.1 million (21.53%), City at £37.3 million (18.83%) and Tottenham at £31.1 million (43.13%).

Tottenham's impressive growth is as a consequence of their new kit deal with Nike. Hopefully our new kit deal will go some way to redress this imbalance in revenue.
 

Mascot88

Yours for £1m. Need to make room for Dean Saunders
Admin
Joined
May 24, 2007
Messages
21,404
Liverpool FC, of all clubs, paying zero tax? Shameful.