The Owners

Red_Jedi

Anfield kick about
Ad-free Member
Joined
May 30, 2017
Messages
2,025
As I said I have no short term issues with domestic cup underperformance, and to be fair we've had some unlucky draws, but I expect to see a better performance in them over the medium term.
So in the last 7 seasons we have been in 5 Cup Finals and at least 2 Semi Finals. Not many teams have a better record than that.

In Jurgen's time, we have been in 3 finals and 1 semi final. I suppose you'll now say you are only talking about Domestic cups.....

I'd rather reach a Champions League final, than win the league cup.
 

lfc.eddie

"¿Plata... O Plomo?"
Joined
Sep 18, 2006
Messages
53,286
So in the last 7 seasons we have been in 5 Cup Finals and at least 2 Semi Finals. Not many teams have a better record than that.

In Jurgen's time, we have been in 3 finals and 1 semi final. I suppose you'll now say you are only talking about Domestic cups.....

I'd rather reach a Champions League final, than win the league cup.
If we are in 7 cup finals, wouldn’t we be in the same or equal the amount of semi finals to the finals?
 

Red_Jedi

Anfield kick about
Ad-free Member
Joined
May 30, 2017
Messages
2,025
If we are in 7 cup finals, wouldn’t we be in the same or equal the amount of semi finals to the finals?
Lol. There's always one! If you ever look into the history of LFC in cups - it always states where they reached. So I was assuming most people would have worked that out, apologies to you sir for not being clear!
 

Kopstar

★★★★★★
Joined
Jun 15, 2007
Messages
15,016
lol. There's always one! If you ever look into the history of LFC in cups - it always states where they reached. So I was assuming most people would have worked that out, apologies to you sir for not being clear!
It was clear. We don't talk about making the semi-finals of the Champions League in 2005, 2007 or 2018 as if it's a separate achievement to winning it or finishing runners-up.
 

Sweeting

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 2, 2008
Messages
10,115
Great effort by the club to break the GK world record, defender world record and still post a world record profit!
 

lfc.eddie

"¿Plata... O Plomo?"
Joined
Sep 18, 2006
Messages
53,286
Great effort by the club to break the GK world record, defender world record and still post a world record profit!
Don’t think those guys fall in that financial year reported, maybe Van Dijk, but certainly not Alisson. The biggest positive should be the wage bill management from the club.
 

dockers_strike

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 26, 2017
Messages
740
I think the owners are well on the road to making the club self sufficient while at the same time, building a new main stand, planning to re build ARE, build and upgrade Kirkby and make the club competitive on the field by buying the right players. Im not particularly bothered about the record profit but obviously, it goes hand in hand with the overall plan. Id far rather the club paid it's way rather than become like PSG, City and Chelsea, the day Liverpool FC do become the plaything of a mega rich individual is the day I'll go and start supporting Marine FC.

But there will be those who will complain that not every last penny of the money was not put into player purchases. Those people clearly do not know how to run a market stall never mind a football club.
 

Sweeting

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 2, 2008
Messages
10,115
Don’t think those guys fall in that financial year reported, maybe Van Dijk, but certainly not Alisson. The biggest positive should be the wage bill management from the club.
Ah OK - well that result paved the way for those signings then I assume so still good management.
 

epsomred

Give yourselves the chance to be heros
Ad-free Member
Joined
May 16, 2018
Messages
2,027
Great story but a bit misleading. In accounting terms, profit and cash are not the same things. Hence amazon rakes in shed loads of cash but does not make much of a profit. In the crazy world of football accounting player sales are credited in the year they happen but player purchases and investments in the ground are treated as assets and amortised over the period of their likely useful life. So profits for this year are boosted by the countinho sale whereas the cash invested in the main stand, van dycke etc counts as investments in assets and is spread over a number of years. Of course the phil money will also come in over a number of years but I think the club treat it as a one off profit hence the discrepancy this year. Still a great position to be in compared to the gillet/hicks years but not as simple as we now have £100m to spend.
 

lfc.eddie

"¿Plata... O Plomo?"
Joined
Sep 18, 2006
Messages
53,286
Of course the phil money will also come in over a number of years but I think the club treat it as a one off profit hence the discrepancy this year.
Payment over a period is booked in cash flow, but invoice issued are treated as lump sum revenue in P&L. Add-ons will be booked as and when it happened in the P&L. You cannot go about reading the rest of the articles talking about who we bought and how much we've spent. Different authors wrote them very differently which goes to show journalist should never attempt to sound too clever in reporting accounts unless they know what they have the qualification.
 

epsomred

Give yourselves the chance to be heros
Ad-free Member
Joined
May 16, 2018
Messages
2,027
Payment over a period is booked in cash flow, but invoice issued are treated as lump sum revenue in P&L. Add-ons will be booked as and when it happened in the P&L. You cannot go about reading the rest of the articles talking about who we bought and how much we've spent. Different authors wrote them very differently which goes to show journalist should never attempt to sound too clever in reporting accounts unless they know what they have the qualification.
Yes your right. I meant the initial fee not the add ons but I think the wider point still stands that there is a mis leading mis match between how the club accounts for sales versus purchases/investments. Not deliberate mistatement just a quirk of uk GAAP as applied to football clubs.
 

lfc.eddie

"¿Plata... O Plomo?"
Joined
Sep 18, 2006
Messages
53,286
talent retention. It works when talent acquisition is good to begin with!

Does FSG have any debt at this point in time? It's great how they've developed everything up until this point and still have more plans in store.
No they don't, but Liverpool FC does.... acquisition isn't the only thing that determined the talent retained will give you good value. It's talent development as well. You can acquire the best of the best, but if you don't know how to develop them you will end up having a bunch of Schevchenko or Markovic running around.
 

JustHitMyHead

TIA Reserve Team
Joined
Aug 21, 2010
Messages
2,058
No they don't, but Liverpool FC does.... It's talent development as well. You can acquire the best of the best, but if you don't know how to develop them you will end up having a bunch of Schevchenko or Markovic running around.
No... they wouldn't be running around. The Schevchenkos and Markovics would be sitting on the bench or in the stands.
 

Arminius

FSG PR plant
Moderator
Joined
Aug 13, 2008
Messages
26,444
talent retention. It works when talent acquisition is good to begin with!

Does FSG have any debt at this point in time? It's great how they've developed everything up until this point and still have more plans in store.
Excluding debt owed by LFC to FSG's holding vehicle, LFC's bank debt was £79M in the last reports filed (May 2017). Basically the stadium debt, if I recall correctly a five year term so the imminent May 2018 ones will like show around ~£60M.
 

Red over the water

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 13, 2018
Messages
3,322
It’s going well. The planning and execution on the pitch is also evident off the pitch in all aspects - stadium development, training facilities, commercial growth. It’s a symbiotic relationship. We are in a phase where the whole club is being built up a bit more, and hopefully some silverware is just around the corner.
 

Lowton_Red

No football club is successful without hard work.
Ad-free Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2015
Messages
2,578
Excluding debt owed by LFC to FSG's holding vehicle, LFC's bank debt was £79M in the last reports filed (May 2017). Basically the stadium debt, if I recall correctly a five year term so the imminent May 2018 ones will like show around ~£60M.
The stadium debt is the inter-company debt (owed to the parent company, UKSV Holdings Company Ltd) which stood at £109.949 million in the last accounts.
The club also has a revolving credit facility of £150 million for "general corporate purposes including working capital and letters of credit" i.e. primarily for player purchases. for a term of five years from September 2015. This secured bank facility is due to mature in September 2020. As of 30 May 2017, £71.709 million had been drawn down against this facility (£73 million, less £1.291million deferred loan costs).
 

lfc.eddie

"¿Plata... O Plomo?"
Joined
Sep 18, 2006
Messages
53,286
The stadium debt is the inter-company debt (owed to the parent company, UKSV Holdings Company Ltd) which stood at £109.949 million in the last accounts.
Yeah, that is what was reported as I recall. Minor interest inter-co loan by the owners to the club.
Liverpool repay £10million to FSG for Main Stand loan
Liverpool FC have repaid £10million of the £110million loan from owners Fenway Sports Group for the building of Anfield's new Main Stand.

The latest accounts for the year to May 31 2018 show that the first repayment on the inter-company loan from the club’s holding company UKSV Holdings Company Limited has been made. The balance now stands just below £100million.

FSG took out the loan in America to finance the stadium redevelopment. Two years ago accounts showed that the interest rate payable was 1.24% and that has since gone up to 2.4%.
Still very low interest rate, but I see FSG is feeling the squeeze.
 

Arminius

FSG PR plant
Moderator
Joined
Aug 13, 2008
Messages
26,444
The stadium debt is the inter-company debt (owed to the parent company, UKSV Holdings Company Ltd) which stood at £109.949 million in the last accounts.
The club also has a revolving credit facility of £150 million for "general corporate purposes including working capital and letters of credit" i.e. primarily for player purchases. for a term of five years from September 2015. This secured bank facility is due to mature in September 2020. As of 30 May 2017, £71.709 million had been drawn down against this facility (£73 million, less £1.291million deferred loan costs).
I thought those letters of credit went heavily to the stadium project?
 

Lowton_Red

No football club is successful without hard work.
Ad-free Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2015
Messages
2,578
I thought those letters of credit went heavily to the stadium project?
The money for the stadium expansion came from the intercompy loan.
From page 26 of the accounts:
"The £109.9 million due to group undertaking at 31 May 2017 represented at £109.9 million intercompany creditor with the Club's UK holding Company, UKSV Holdings Company Limited. This intercompany loan has been provided to fund the stadium expansion work."

The bank loan, the revolving credit facility of £150 million is used for "general corporate purposes including working capital and letters of credit". In other words to fund any shortfall in financing player purchases.
 

Arminius

FSG PR plant
Moderator
Joined
Aug 13, 2008
Messages
26,444
The money for the stadium expansion came from the intercompy loan.
From page 26 of the accounts:
"The £109.9 million due to group undertaking at 31 May 2017 represented at £109.9 million intercompany creditor with the Club's UK holding Company, UKSV Holdings Company Limited. This intercompany loan has been provided to fund the stadium expansion work."

The bank loan, the revolving credit facility of £150 million is used for "general corporate purposes including working capital and letters of credit". In other words to fund any shortfall in financing player purchases.
Interesting - I had read them quickly, and was not aware that letters of credit would see much use in player transfers, so assumed that the total stadium debt was the UKSV plus some portion of the bank loan.
 

Lowton_Red

No football club is successful without hard work.
Ad-free Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2015
Messages
2,578
Interesting - I had read them quickly, and was not aware that letters of credit would see much use in player transfers, so assumed that the total stadium debt was the UKSV plus some portion of the bank loan.
As far as I'm aware, LOCs are used extensively in player transfers, especially for international transfers.
 

Arminius

FSG PR plant
Moderator
Joined
Aug 13, 2008
Messages
26,444
As far as I'm aware, LOCs are used extensively in player transfers, especially for international transfers.
It makes sense, just that we fairly often hear about direct wire transfers being used, plus the fact that FIFA/UEFA provide a much more direct enforcement mechanism for non-payment.
 

Lowton_Red

No football club is successful without hard work.
Ad-free Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2015
Messages
2,578
It makes sense, just that we fairly often hear about direct wire transfers being used, plus the fact that FIFA/UEFA provide a much more direct enforcement mechanism for non-payment.
The advantage of a LOC (especially if it is confirmed irrevocable) is the security it offers both the selling and buying club; payment is assured, provided that the conditions of the LOC are met. There is no risk of the purchasing club withholding or delaying payment, so there is no need to rely on possibly protracted enforcement measures.
 

Arminius

FSG PR plant
Moderator
Joined
Aug 13, 2008
Messages
26,444
The advantage of a LOC (especially if it is confirmed irrevocable) is the security it offers both the selling and buying club; payment is assured, provided that the conditions of the LOC are met. There is no risk of the purchasing club withholding or delaying payment, so there is no need to rely on possibly protracted enforcement measures.
Never quite figured out what the value was of a non-confirmed or revocable LC. The limitation with using LCs for player transfers would be the documents required to secure payment - I assume that would be the transfer of registration generally. That doesn't protect you from much of significance really, although the Cardiff-Nantes situation now comes to mind.
 

Kopstar

★★★★★★
Joined
Jun 15, 2007
Messages
15,016
Not unheard of to provide Letters of Credit to act as a guarantee for future payments relating to player transfers but certainly not usual for them to be requested of PL clubs.
 

Lowton_Red

No football club is successful without hard work.
Ad-free Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2015
Messages
2,578
Notification just in from Companies House:
THE LIVERPOOL FOOTBALL CLUB AND ATHLETIC GROUNDS LIMITED
Group of companies' accounts made up to 31 May 2018
This document is being processed and will be available in 5 days.


It'll be interesting to see the state of the cash flows and borrowings, rather than the headline grabbing turnover and profit numbers.