The Owners

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The Spanish clubs that were in the ascendancy when they wrote those rules are going to be hoisted on their own petard. It was even then transparently a way to give them advantage as against the previous system, which gave more weight to the size of the audience/money brought in. But with the surge of English clubs, and a rebuilding era seemingly upon both of the Spanish giants, another year under the system is going to make it obvious how the design favours incumbents. Real and Barca won't be hit by the problem next year, but it won't take long.
if the 2 Spanish giants (Barca + Real) loose money from EUFA,
will they look to increase their already unfair slice of La Liga Tv money?


Personally, I hope both clubs spend years in the doldrums,
its no more than they deserve after showing so much disrespect to other clubs over the years.
 

Arminius

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if the 2 Spanish giants (Barca + Real) loose money from EUFA,
will they look to increase their already unfair slice of La Liga Tv money?


Personally, I hope both clubs spend years in the doldrums,
its no more than they deserve after showing so much disrespect to other clubs over the years.
I think they probably won't, because the change has been good for them - a smaller slice of a larger pie. La Liga is as a whole heading in a better direction than it was 5 years ago, on a model more like the PL. Even the Bundesliga has made a nod to that principle, just had the weakest execution of it.
 

Notasuperfan

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I think it is time for J W Henry & Mike Gordon to organise a season-end retreat after the CL tie for a few days to help clear the disappointment in losing the title and give that pep talk and assurance that LFC will win a league title during their reign.
 

Kopstar

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Your comment, regarding the Moores shareholding in Liverpool, is incorrect.

John Moores never held a majority stake in Liverpool; he held 375 shares out of 12,000 allotted and issued shares.

When David Moores first became a director in 1990, he held 325 ordinary shares. Over the years his shareholding increased to 3,111 shares (including the 375 shares he held as a nominee of the estate of John Moores), but he did not acquire a majority holding in the club until after the 1994 rights issue, as evidenced by this extract from the 1994 accounts:

Still no answer from you as to why you say the claim, made by me and supported by Reuters, that the Moores family held the majority stake in the club for nearly 50 years is incorrect.

To date, the only evidence you've produced is the above. But that's simply a breakdown of the shares held by the directors and only accounts for 4,115 of the 12,000 issued shares. It doesn't refute the claim at all. You say that it wasn't until the increase share issue following the EGM on 29 June 1994 that David Moores acquired a majority shareholding but he's not the only member of the Moores family.

Having now obtained from Companies House the bulk shareholders list as at 15 September 1993 it is evident that even before David Moores became majority shareholder in his own right, the Moores family owned the majority stake in the club. There are apparently up to 34 members of the Moores family who had an interest in Littlewoods but without having to go beyond three they held the majority shareholding in Liverpool.

David Moores held 3,101 shares
Sir John Moores held 1,849 shares
John Moores Junior held 1,174 shares

That's a total of 6,124 out of 12,000 issued shares just between three of them [the family held more].

So, did you reply to Reuters question as to whether you had evidence that their claim (that I repeated and have heard before) was incorrect? What makes you say it is?
 

Livvy

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Premier League teams were allotted the following prize money for their respective finishing positions in the table:


  1. Manchester City – £38.4million
  2. Liverpool – £36.5m
  3. Chelsea – £34.6m
  4. Tottenham – £32.6m
  5. Arsenal – £30.7m
  6. Manchester United – £28.8m
  7. Wolves – £26.9m
  8. Everton – £25m
  9. Leicester – £23.1m
  10. West Ham – £21.1m
  11. Watford – £19.2m
  12. Crystal Palace – £17.3m
  13. Newcastle – £15.4m
  14. Bournemouth – £13.4m
  15. Burnley – £11.5m
  16. Southampton – £9.6m
  17. Brighton – £7.7m
  18. Cardiff – £5.8m
  19. Fulham – £3.8m
  20. Huddersfield – £1.9m
 

Lowton_Red

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Still no answer from you as to why you say the claim, made by me and supported by Reuters, that the Moores family held the majority stake in the club for nearly 50 years is incorrect.

To date, the only evidence you've produced is the above. But that's simply a breakdown of the shares held by the directors and only accounts for 4,115 of the 12,000 issued shares. It doesn't refute the claim at all. You say that it wasn't until the increase share issue following the EGM on 29 June 1994 that David Moores acquired a majority shareholding but he's not the only member of the Moores family.

Having now obtained from Companies House the bulk shareholders list as at 15 September 1993 it is evident that even before David Moores became majority shareholder in his own right, the Moores family owned the majority stake in the club. There are apparently up to 34 members of the Moores family who had an interest in Littlewoods but without having to go beyond three they held the majority shareholding in Liverpool.

David Moores held 3,101 shares
Sir John Moores held 1,849 shares
John Moores Junior held 1,174 shares

That's a total of 6,124 out of 12,000 issued shares just between three of them [the family held more].

So, did you reply to Reuters question as to whether you had evidence that their claim (that I repeated and have heard before) was incorrect? What makes you say it is?
I have contacted Reuters, advising them of the distribution of shares reported in the 1980 edition of the Echo. Here is their reply:



As you can see, they now suspect their report is erroneous and suggest that I should ignore it.

Do you have any other evidence supporting your claim that the Moores family owned the club for 50 years.
 

Kopstar

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I have contacted Reuters, advising them of the distribution of shares reported in the 1980 edition of the Echo. Here is their reply:



As you can see, they now suspect their report is erroneous and suggest that I should ignore it.

Do you have any other evidence supporting your claim that the Moores family owned the club for 50 years.
The shareholding set out by the Echo leaves over 4,000 issued shares unaccounted for.

I will have to see if I can find where I first saw the claim that the Moores family had owned Liverpool for nearly 50 years. Given the age of the Reuters article it may well have been there.

The family have certainly owned it for a considerable period of time despite your provably false assertion that
There is no evidence of the Moores family ever, either individually or collectively, holding a majority stake in Liverpool, not until David Moores acquired a majority stake in 1994, 13 years before he sold the club to the cowboys.
Whether I can substantiate the claim I repeated that the Moores family owned Liverpool for nearly 50 years I don't know. By the same measure neither may it be refuted by you given the absence of publicly available company records showing the full list of shareholders prior to 1986.

Your statement that there was "no evidence of the Moores family ever, either individually or collectively, holding a majority stake in Liverpool, not until David Moores acquired a majority stake in 1994" was provably false.

Did the family hold the majority shareholding back to the 60s, 70s, 80s? I'm not sure that evidence is easy to come by. I'm happy to check the position in 86 (the first available records at Companies House) although I accept that would only get us around halfway there.

Is it important for you to know?
 

Arminius

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An interesting point that speaks to something that has been discussed on here recently:

Last year, Barcelona paid Liverpool about $170 million for Coutinho. Soon after, Liverpool spent more than $200 million on three new players: Alisson Becker, the goalkeeper; the midfielder Fabinho; and the fullback Virgil van Dijk. All became crucial contributors this season. These were known commodities, and none came at a bargain price. But without the profit made by selling Coutinho, Henry assured me, those players would not have been acquired.

I am sort of stunned that the analytics department has 2 guys with physics Ph.Ds. They have come a long way from Comolli.
 

redfanman

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An interesting point that speaks to something that has been discussed on here recently:

Last year, Barcelona paid Liverpool about $170 million for Coutinho. Soon after, Liverpool spent more than $200 million on three new players: Alisson Becker, the goalkeeper; the midfielder Fabinho; and the fullback Virgil van Dijk. All became crucial contributors this season. These were known commodities, and none came at a bargain price. But without the profit made by selling Coutinho, Henry assured me, those players would not have been acquired.

I am sort of stunned that the analytics department has 2 guys with physics Ph.Ds. They have come a long way from Comolli.
They have Virgil as full back!

I still don't believe the Coutinho deal was required for any of those signings to be made - but probably was for all 3.
 

KYRed18

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They have Virgil as full back!

I still don't believe the Coutinho deal was required for any of those signings to be made - but probably was for all 3.
I am more in line with the thinking of the Coutinho sale was required for those signings to be made at those precise times.... I feel as if we would've gone after those targets when we were in a "better" negotiating position (1 yr remaining on deal etc etc). Like items on a want versus a need list. We got to shop in the luxury aisle for a change rather than the discount aisle.

With the exception of VVD. Think that was planned all along
 

Kopstar

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They have Virgil as full back!

I still don't believe the Coutinho deal was required for any of those signings to be made - but probably was for all 3.
Definitely not for Virgil but yeah, doubt we would have stumped up the £60m or whatever it was for Alisson without it.
 

Red over the water

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That was a very good read on the analytics department, and I get the impression from reading it that not only are we ahead of the competition in this area, there is a very real sense that we are only just starting, with the promise of much more to come.
 

Red over the water

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I've been wondering about the salaries that the employees in the analytics department might attract.

If you have a PhD in Physics or Mathematics from a top university you probably have some interesting career options open to you, so we are not talking about workers who are near the bottom of the pile here.

But how high do their salaries go? Presumably nowhere near the level of the players or manager, but it would be interesting to try to consider what they are really worth to the organization.

If Ian Graham is writing algorithms that are helping to sift through mountains of data, and they are giving clear recommendations about who we should buy, or where there is clear value in the market, and we are having success in following his recommendations, what is he worth to LFC? Presumably some of his stuff is proprietary, and other clubs would love to have it?

So let's just consider one example, albeit a very lucrative one. Coutinho is bought on his recommendation, and then sold at a profit in excess of 100M. Is a nerd happy because the metric he devised worked? Of course, yes.

But how much $$$ does he deserve?

If a bench warmer at a no-mark Premier League club can attract a salary of a million a year, one would imagine we will start to see multi-millionaires in the analytics department as this aspect of the game evolves.

Perhaps even now we have greedy agents wondering about how they can get a slice of the analytics pie by helping the nerds extract their true value from the organizations they work at?

Game's gone mad!
 
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gr_sounder

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I must admit, as a scientist and analyst with way too much math and building computational models for various processes in my background .... I absolutely loved reading that article. I can totally appreciate the need to keep the brain and the fandom separate.

What I did like, is that throughout, they continue to say that the analytics and analyses are only a part of a bigger picture. Having Klopp give playing notes to the team without saying anything statistical, is ideal, and again, there is still a lot that "just happens" or you can go on gut. It was also nice to see that Grahamn and his cohorts are realistic as to what their models do and what can be expected of them. TAA's quick corner against Barcelona happened in part because the coaching staff let the team know that Barcelona would complain and take time to set up for corners and free kicks... but that is something that gets noticed by a football person, not an analyst. That said, finding players that make good decisions and that look to make dangerous plays/passes, that can come from an analyst. You can use both.

I am sure these people are paid fairly well.... and by that I mean a pittance compared to the players.
But they are surely well respected by FSG and I'm sure some of the coaching staff. In the end, it's just data... and it takes the coaches and football people to figure out the best way to actually use the data.

Great article for us nerds.
 

Red over the water

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If player recommendations are part of the requirement, I wonder if there will come a time when the analysts will want a cut of the profit, rather than just a good salary? Even if salary is, say, £250k a year.
 

Kopstar

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If player recommendations are part of the requirement, I wonder if there will come a time when the analysts will want a cut of the profit, rather than just a good salary? Even if salary is, say, £250k a year.
Would that mean that they'd be incentivised to encourage a player's sale?

...

[Money's a bit short for Mr Statto]

Starts telling the club that his data is projecting a dramatic decline in Firmino's effectiveness in the next twelve months. Encourages club to get rid, even if it seems the fee's a bit on the low side.

Nah, just include them in the club bonus pool for success on the pitch over a season.
 

Arminius

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I must admit, as a scientist and analyst with way too much math and building computational models for various processes in my background .... I absolutely loved reading that article. I can totally appreciate the need to keep the brain and the fandom separate.

What I did like, is that throughout, they continue to say that the analytics and analyses are only a part of a bigger picture. Having Klopp give playing notes to the team without saying anything statistical, is ideal, and again, there is still a lot that "just happens" or you can go on gut. It was also nice to see that Grahamn and his cohorts are realistic as to what their models do and what can be expected of them. TAA's quick corner against Barcelona happened in part because the coaching staff let the team know that Barcelona would complain and take time to set up for corners and free kicks... but that is something that gets noticed by a football person, not an analyst. That said, finding players that make good decisions and that look to make dangerous plays/passes, that can come from an analyst. You can use both.

I am sure these people are paid fairly well.... and by that I mean a pittance compared to the players.
But they are surely well respected by FSG and I'm sure some of the coaching staff. In the end, it's just data... and it takes the coaches and football people to figure out the best way to actually use the data.

Great article for us nerds.
The fact that one of them is focused not on finding player value or the like, but entirely on developing the next-gen analytical model, shows that Henry is all over it.
 

Red over the water

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It’ll be interesting to see how it all evolves, but I like the last sentence (Kopstar post) about the club bonus pool for success on the pitch over the season.

I’m not a full blown Shanks, but if they don’t all get a share of the rewards presumably there will be other clubs who will like the look of what we are doing at Liverpool, who will try to poach them.
 

epsomred

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Good article in the Times today about the profitability of English football clubs. We are second highest at £106m although I suspect the Countinho sale is distorting that massively ly. Shocking to see how many clubs lose money though. Can’t be sustainable forever.
 

gr_sounder

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The fact that one of them is focused not on finding player value or the like, but entirely on developing the next-gen analytical model, shows that Henry is all over it.
Exactly. These are the "type" of people I work with on an everyday basis... and I have to be honest, if I was these models for Liverpool or a team in general, I believe I would be a kid in a candy shop and love being at work every day.

And lets be honest, if Henry and Liverpool can bring these guys in for 150,000$US or equivalent in pounds, it's not that much money.
Even if the club spent $1M (US) on these guys and their toys, it's still less than half the money Markovic got from the club for wages last year. (wow that's sad).
 

Limiescouse

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Exactly. These are the "type" of people I work with on an everyday basis... and I have to be honest, if I was these models for Liverpool or a team in general, I believe I would be a kid in a candy shop and love being at work every day.

And lets be honest, if Henry and Liverpool can bring these guys in for 150,000$US or equivalent in pounds, it's not that much money.
Even if the club spent $1M (US) on these guys and their toys, it's still less than half the money Markovic got from the club for wages last year. (wow that's sad).
Exactly, to @Red over the water question. Unless these guys were to use their science chops to advance to an executive level (Sergey Brin) or start their own hedge fund, then their market value is still going to be extremely cheap for the value they bring if they get it right.
 

Arminius

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Exactly. These are the "type" of people I work with on an everyday basis... and I have to be honest, if I was these models for Liverpool or a team in general, I believe I would be a kid in a candy shop and love being at work every day.

And lets be honest, if Henry and Liverpool can bring these guys in for 150,000$US or equivalent in pounds, it's not that much money.
Even if the club spent $1M (US) on these guys and their toys, it's still less than half the money Markovic got from the club for wages last year. (wow that's sad).
One of the sentences that jumped out at me was:

Later, Klopp learned that without Graham’s analysis of that season, which was only one aspect of as thorough an investigative process as any soccer club had undertaken to replace a manager, he never would have been hired. “The department there in the back of the building?” he said recently, referring to Graham and his staff. “They’re the reason I’m here.”

It sounds like there were real questions around Klopp's last season, and Graham's analysis simply pushed them aside - so even before the analysis was identifying more accurate 'values' for players, it did that for the manager. Money well spent for me.

I would be awfully curious to find out if they had a hand in picking out Robertson, in particular. My guess we won't know for years, until after one or more has moved on and possibly a book or two has been written.
 

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Perhaps it was all a misunderstanding. As I recall, Klopp was destroying morale...

Just look at the wake of devastation we left in the CL - including Man City and Roma.
Exactly. And that's all which needs to be said on the topic. Everything else is just petty point-scoring.