The Owners

Kopstar

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As a club we're probably more closely associated with betting than any other club. Our most successful period was bankrolled by gambling. I agree though that it can ruin people's lives, much like alcohol (question our Carlsberg sponsorship), sweatshops (question all clothing brands!), financial institutions (standard chartered?)...there are moral questions to be asked about almost any commercial affiliation.

I don't see why gambling itself ought to be banned outright, for most it's a fun pastime, something that people dip into every now and again without becoming 'hooked'. I'm a bit like Commando, I go to the races occasionally. Right at the beginning I go up to the Tote and put £5 each way on each of the races on the card. I don't go back until the end of the day's racing to see what my £60-£70 might have got me. I'm prepared to write that off as the 'cost of entertainment'...any winnings are a bonus and usually get put straight into getting stuff for my wife/kids.

So, personally, I don't have much of a problem with the club associating itself with gambling companies - providing that the education around gambling is a prominent part of that association.
 

igor_piss_can

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Mrs CDO’s first husband was/is a gambling addict. He got into all sorts of scrapes because of it. He’d regularly collect his wages on pay day and an hour later would be penniless. I do feel sorry for him. It’s an addiction. He has said many times how he wishes he could stop and had never started. He bemoans the fact that the first time he gambled he won quite an amount. He says that if he’d have lost that first bet he’d have probably stopped.
I do like a day at at the races once a year. We go for the dining option. I take a small set amount and go prepared to lose the lot. If I’ve retained any money at the end of the day it feels like a win.
I agree though that it doesn’t feel right to me that we associate with betting companies.
I know a few people who got hooked through winning a big amount on their first trip to the casino & then proceeded to develop a bad habit. It's almost like heroin addicts chasing the dragon. I'd gambled for years on the football and had no problem with it as it mainly just consisted of the odd accumulator on the weekend just to add a bit of interest to my Saturday afternoon. The casino games (roulette / slots) I think are the real killer & it's so easy to see why fixed odds betting terminals get called the "crack cocaine of gambling". Every time you walk into a bookies you're more than likely to be greeted by somebody literally rocking & twitching at the roulette machine like a drug addict while they feed it note after note.

I think it needs to be regulated a lot more than it is and as I say advertising needs to be toned down quite a lot. No idea how some of the sites are allowed to operate either, when I used to gamble I was a member of an online casino which allowed you to deposit via your network provider. EG - deposit £20 & it just gets added onto your phone bill at the end of the month - basically gambling in credit. What could go wrong?! The casino also left your withdrawals "pending" and available to reverse for several days before they finally transferred the funds to your bank. These companies know exactly who they're targeting with this sort of stuff
 

Red over the water

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Thanks for broadening it out Kopstar. There are ethical issues with most of the partnerships if you choose to see it. I was interested to see the (minor) flak Mo took for a personal sponsorship with Exxon. There are issues practically every which way you look.

On the gambling thing, I haven’t checked, but I believe the adverse affects are disproportionate to people who are poor and really can’t afford to go there. The sort of thing described above - day at the races, nice meal, a bet on the races, and if you win - great, but if you lose, that’s all fine too, because it was a nice day out and all within your budget. That sort of set up appeals, especially for people who are in control and can leave it there.

But if you are poor, and your discretionary income is zilch anyway, the temptation is to gamble, possibly even to pay for necessities in life, and as that hole starts to dig deeper people get addicted and trapped.

I would rather we didn’t have a gambling sponsor, but readily accept the various sponsors we have are ethically flawed in one way or another.
 

Prolix

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All it takes is enough of us and we can tear the whole thing down. :wave:
 

Red_Jedi

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Cigarette advertising got banned.

So not all negative sides to Brands are equally bad. But the issue with gambling is not necessarily the advertising, but people's self control, the same with alcohol. In moderation, alcohol and gambling can aid to the event.

Cigarettes advertising got banned as there was very little positive out of it, and it was costing the NHS millions through other illnesses. A lot of younger children these days are hooked to their phones - playing games or social media - and an epidemic of issues could play out at they all reach adulthood.

I'm all for commercial progress at our club, as end of day we get to see players like VVD and Alison.
 

ptt

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Gambling is not only immoral because it's an addiction and theft, but it's also counter intuitive with the passion we have for the sport.
Gambling is fun. Yes it can be expensive dark and destructive but so can most fun things, sex and drinking spring to mind.

I don’t agree that it’s counter intuitive to sporting passion.

Gambling in itself is not dangerous nor immoral nor a problem. It’s what humans do with it that causes the problem. Like most things.
 

Magnus

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I think advertisment for gambling should be forbidden and I personally don't like that Liverpool has gambling companies as sponsors. Actually , dislike it a lot. But I would never ban gambling. That would be too authoritarian for me, and there is of course nothing wrong with playing in a lottery or betting on a game per see. I think marketing for gambling should be completely illegal though. For those who may struggle with it, advertising it into their faces, is simply against my ethics and I find it immoral.
 

Semmy

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Gambling is fun. Yes it can be expensive dark and destructive but so can most fun things, sex and drinking spring to mind.

I don’t agree that it’s counter intuitive to sporting passion.

Gambling in itself is not dangerous nor immoral nor a problem. It’s what humans do with it that causes the problem. Like most things.
Sex is expensive dark and destructive...

So you HAVE met my ex wife, then
 

Mascot88

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Gambling is fun. Yes it can be expensive dark and destructive but so can most fun things, sex and drinking spring to mind.

I don’t agree that it’s counter intuitive to sporting passion.

Gambling in itself is not dangerous nor immoral nor a problem. It’s what humans do with it that causes the problem. Like most things.
The techniques and tactics used by betting companies to prey on the vulnerable take it into the realm of immorality.

We are not talking about the concept of gambling here, and LFC are not being sponsored by ‘the idea of maybe having a five pound flutter on the match every other week’. We are talking about the gambling industry, the industrialised efforts to extract money from the desperate, weak or ill.

Getting Ray Winstone to tell people to Gaaaamble responsibly after telling them that all the cool people bet on the footy, and you can make loads of money if you’re dead clever, doesn’t negate that their operations are cynically designed to make it really, really, hard to stop when the fun stops.
 

Chewbazza

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In the year ending Sep 2016, the UK lost £13.8bn

I don't begrudge anyone a little flutter now and then, I just think the agressive advertising coupled with the ease of access makes for a dangerous combination.

I say the same about payday loan companies and their ilk.

People will always gamble, it isn't immoral, but it isn't something that should be encouraged.
 

William Clarke

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In the year ending Sep 2016, the UK lost £13.8bn

I don't begrudge anyone a little flutter now and then, I just think the agressive advertising coupled with the ease of access makes for a dangerous combination.

I say the same about payday loan companies and their ilk.

People will always gamble, it isn't immoral, but it isn't something that should be encouraged.
Yeah, we are banging on about gambling and the problems it can cause, but what you say about the Payday Loans, and all other types of loans for that matter, are equally as bad for people and, I would imagine, affects more people than what gambling does.
 

redbj

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Yeah, we are banging on about gambling and the problems it can cause, but what you say about the Payday Loans, and all other types of loans for that matter, are equally as bad for people and, I would imagine, affects more people than what gambling does.
This is creeping into the forums over a few threads.

Just as a bit of a blanket statement can we just assume that everyone is well aware that if;

Subject ‘a’ is wrong, there’s also a subject ‘b’ that could be wrong too.

It doesn’t make subject ‘a’ any less wrong though.
 

Mascot88

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This is creeping into the forums over a few threads.

Just as a bit of a blanket statement can we just assume that everyone is well aware that if;

Subject ‘a’ is wrong, there’s also a subject ‘b’ that could be wrong too.

It doesn’t make subject ‘a’ any less wrong though.
That’s generally called ‘whataboutery’.
 

igor_piss_can

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Yeah, we are banging on about gambling and the problems it can cause, but what you say about the Payday Loans, and all other types of loans for that matter, are equally as bad for people and, I would imagine, affects more people than what gambling does.
Yeah Payday loan companies are pretty predatory in the way they act, don't get me wrong I think they were fairly useful if you only wanted to borrow for a week or so as sites like Wonga used to just charge daily interest, so you wouldn't have to pay so much on top in the grand scheme of things.

A lot of the payday loan companies seem to have changed their business model over the last few years and now offer "installment loans" instead, meaning that if you borrowed a few hundred quid you would have to pay back for a minimum of three months before the loan is fully cleared which could end you up paying a fair whack over double what you initially borrowed.This probably looks a lot more attractive to the type of lender they are attracting too as it allows them to kick the can down the road for a bit longer per say.

I think that the more "responsible" lenders need to corner this market better because one thing I've noticed is that barring the overdraft facility the only people offering small loans of under £1000 seem to be these high interest companies.

Credit Unions are great and are a much better alternative as they also encourage people to save & budget as well as offering low cost loans, but due to them being non-for-profit they don't really do anything in terms of advertising so I think a lot of people just aren't aware that they exist
 

Mascot88

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Yeah, we are banging on about gambling and the problems it can cause, but what you say about the Payday Loans, and all other types of loans for that matter, are equally as bad for people and, I would imagine, affects more people than what gambling does.
I would doubt that to be honest. I’d imagine while payday loans have a devastating effect on people who find themselves tangled up in that spider web, the effects of gambling are probably much more widely felt.
 

William Clarke

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Yeah Payday loan companies are pretty predatory in the way they act, don't get me wrong I think they were fairly useful if you only wanted to borrow for a week or so as sites like Wonga used to just charge daily interest, so you wouldn't have to pay so much on top in the grand scheme of things.

A lot of the payday loan companies seem to have changed their business model over the last few years and now offer "installment loans" instead, meaning that if you borrowed a few hundred quid you would have to pay back for a minimum of three months before the loan is fully cleared which could end you up paying a fair whack over double what you initially borrowed.This probably looks a lot more attractive to the type of lender they are attracting too as it allows them to kick the can down the road for a bit longer per say.

I think that the more "responsible" lenders need to corner this market better because one thing I've noticed is that barring the overdraft facility the only people offering small loans of under £1000 seem to be these high interest companies.

Credit Unions are great and are a much better alternative as they also encourage people to save & budget as well as offering low cost loans, but due to them being non-for-profit they don't really do anything in terms of advertising so I think a lot of people just aren't aware that they exist
I fully agree with you when you mentioned Credit Unions. I have not used one myself, but I have been reliably informed they are a good way of getting a low cost loan.
 

William Clarke

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I would doubt that to be honest. I’d imagine while payday loans have a devastating effect on people who find themselves tangled up in that spider web, the effects of gambling are probably much more widely felt.
Yeah, but I also see these loan companies in the same light as the gambling companies. Getting a loan or gambling, I see both as a hardship to people who are in most cases struggling to make ends meet. A gambler may start off with money in his/her pocket and have a decent working wage coming in, but there are no winners in gambling, other than the companies, and it's soon that gamblers are looking to loan companies, to get money and allow them to keep gambling. It's a vicious circle all round and the root cause of it all is MONEY -- or should I say lack of it.
 

igor_piss_can

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I fully agree with you when you mentioned Credit Unions. I have not used one myself, but I have been reliably informed they are a good way of getting a low cost loan.
One of the best things about them is the piece of mind knowing that any interest you pay isn't going into the arse pocket of multi-millionaire banker
 

eng.amohd

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Yeah, but I also see these loan companies in the same light as the gambling companies. Getting a loan or gambling, I see both as a hardship to people who are in most cases struggling to make ends meet. A gambler may start off with money in his/her pocket and have a decent working wage coming in, but there are no winners in gambling, other than the companies, and it's soon that gamblers are looking to loan companies, to get money and allow them to keep gambling. It's a vicious circle all round and the root cause of it all is MONEY -- or should I say lack of it.
My rule of thumb is, if you don't work or exert any effort for the money, it is wrong. Loan givers literally make money out of thin air, and as you put it, they make money out of people's hardship, so they are in the same category as gambling for me.
 
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William Clarke

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My rule of thumb is, if you don't work or exert any effort for the money, it is wrong. Loan givers literally makes money out of thin air, and as you put it, makes money out of people's hardship, so they are in the same category as gambling for me.
Totally agree with you, mate. It's a sad world for some.
 

William Clarke

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My name is John Henry and I am a loans advising owner who is offering very favourable rates. I don't wish to come across as too aggressive in my approach to advertising my company 'IN THE RED', but we are in business to serve.
:well done: lol:well done:lol:well done:lol
 

Red_Jedi

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Gambling, alcohol, pay day loans, cars etc - isn’t it up to each individual to be responsible for their own choices - and to moderate themselves and even regulate themselves.

I love a beer pre and post match, a little flutter - and I like fast cars - but do it all responsibly.

Isn’t this what we should teach our children, and even friends and family, if and when they lose their way?

Going all moral on the ethics of advertisers isn’t really issue of the owners - they are running a football club and we need to compete at the top end of the market.

Sadly it’s the commercial world - without that we wouldn’t have vvd and Alison, and hence no 6th cup.

First of all regulate ourselves, then change the ethics of the world - like what has happened to cigarettes.